The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[WPM]

It's really amazing to see. You have these childish scoffers who do nothing but scoff at our exegesis of scripture while they do absolutely nothing to back up their claims with scripture.

So, true! Their posts consist of petty name-calling, insults, avoidance and extra-biblical types and illustrations. Theere is no substance to their posts and nothing of substance to refute.

 

[MA2444]

You just think all of this is one big joke. Always just clowning around. Are you not interested in backing up any of your claims with scripture? I guess you don't want to be taken seriously then?

Haha, there is no serious conversations with you guys. I've tried before several times.
Naw, you and him are unteachable if not outright willfully evil, so I aint going to stress on you two. Yeah I may pop in and out and with short bwahahaas because only a fool would not want to be looking for Jesus before He comes.

So I dont care if you take me seriously or not. No skin off my butt, lol.
You shouldnt be trying to teach people to not Watch for the Lord though. That's weird.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So, true! Their posts consist of petty name-calling, insults, avoidance and extra-biblical types and illustrations. Theere is no substance to their posts and nothing of substance to refute.

Completely agree. There truly is nothing of substance to respond to. Certainly nothing from any pretribbers. They rarely even quote any scripture to support their claims and never actually exegete any scripture. Of course, we know that if they actually exegeted scripture and looked at it more closely and carefully, even they would see that it's impossible to support their claims with scripture. Since they never offer any serious exegesis of scripture while preferring to hurl childish insults instead, then it's impossible to take them seriously.

 

[WPM]

Haha, there is no serious conversations with you guys. I've tried before several times.
Naw, you and him are unteachable if not outright willfully evil, so I aint going to stress on you two. Yeah I may pop in and out and with short bwahahaas because only a fool would not want to be looking for Jesus before He comes.

So I dont care if you take me seriously or not. No skin off my butt, lol.
You shouldnt be trying to teach people to not Watch for the Lord though. That's weird.

Give us a break! You do not even know what that looks like. You are totally incapable of exegeting Scripture. That's because you need to know what it says before you explain it. That seems to be a bridge too far for you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Haha, there is no serious conversations with you guys.

Because you refuse to be serious. Just look through some of your own posts and you can see that.

I've tried before several times.

Tried what? Give me an example.

Naw, you and him are unteachable if not outright willfully evil, so I aint going to stress on you two.

LOL. Just like your doctrine, you have nothing to back this up. Absolutely nothing. We practically beg you pretrib guys to exegete scripture and show exactly how and why you believe what you do and you just won't do it. All you do instead is hurl personal insults like you did once again here.

You say I'm unteachable? I used to be a premil. How did I become an Amil if I'm unteachable? I have different views on a number of things since I started studying end times doctrine more closely. So, you have no idea of what you're talking about. I have been studying scripture for many years, so, naturally, I'm past the point of changing my view on a regular basis and constantly learning new things. But, I do still learn new things here and there and am not unteachable.

Yeah I may pop in and out and with short bwahahaas because only a fool would not want to be looking for Jesus before He comes.

This is the kind of nonsense you come up with on a regular basis. Who said you shouldn't look for Jesus before He comes? Not me. You're just making things up. What does that say about you? I pointed out that we should ALSO be looking and watching out that we're not deceived as Jesus said to do (Matt 24:4). There are certain things that scripture says would happen before Jesus comes, such as a mass falling away from the faith and a significant increase in wickedness, so we should look for those things that tell us when His return is near. If we think those things are already happening, then by all means we should start looking for Jesus while also remembering to look out for false prophets and false Christs and such like Jesus talked about.

So I dont care if you take me seriously or not. No skin off my butt, lol.

You make it impossible to take you seriously. I would if you actually acted serious and actually backed up your claims with scripture while exegeting it and showing clearly how and why you interpret it as you do. But, you never do that. You seem to be completely incapable of defending your doctrine.

You shouldnt be trying to teach people to not Watch for the Lord though. That's weird.

What in the world are you talking about? I think you dislike me and think I'm evil (LOL!) just because you have a false understanding of something I've said. I've NEVER told you to not watch for the Lord. Not once! All I've told you is that there are certain things that scripture says would happen before He comes and we should watch for those things. He wasn't going to come until those things happen first (2 Thess 2:3). Once those things happen or start happening (like the falling away Paul referenced in 2 Thess 2) then we can watch for the Lord to come.

 

[Gottservant]

I want to say at the start, this is not an attack on individual Pretribbers. There are many solid Pretribbers out there. This is a challenge on the doctrine espoused by them.

Anyone that has engaged with Pretribbers on forums like this will know that they cannot furnish us with one single proof text to support their teaching.

[...]

I find it humorous that you espouse the coming of the Lord, as a date where everything (on Earth) is resolved.

There will be more dispute at the coming of the Lord, than there ever has been, on Earth, albeit not in Heaven.

"Will the Son of Man find faith, when He returns to Earth?" (gospels, from memory) - would He have questioned faith, if He thought it would be found in abundance?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I find it humorous that you espouse the coming of the Lord, as a date where everything (on Earth) is resolved.

There will be more dispute at the coming of the Lord, than there ever has been, on Earth, albeit not in Heaven.

"Will the Son of Man find faith, when He returns to Earth?" (gospels, from memory) - would He have questioned faith, if He thought it would be found in abundance?

I find your post to be humorous. One can only guess as to what in the world you are intending to say here.

 

[Gottservant]

I find your post to be humorous. One can only guess as to what in the world you are intending to say here.

Exactly. To me the faith of the Lord in a world of doubt, is formidable; to you the faith of the Lord in Heaven, is all encompassing. We are looking at different sides of the same coin!

 

[WPM]

I find it humorous that you espouse the coming of the Lord, as a date where everything (on Earth) is resolved.

There will be more dispute at the coming of the Lord, than there ever has been, on Earth, albeit not in Heaven.

"Will the Son of Man find faith, when He returns to Earth?" (gospels, from memory) - would He have questioned faith, if He thought it would be found in abundance?

This is just mere opinion. It does not address 1 single argument in the Op.

 

[Gottservant]

This is just mere opinion. It does not address 1 single argument in the Op.

You could say that with more compassion?

The OP is all about the coming of the Lord; I have merely added that the Lord Himself suggested that His return is not all about "faith".

If you are going to get people excited about the return of the Lord, at least do it in context?

 

[WPM]

You could say that with more compassion?

The OP is all about the coming of the Lord; I have merely added that the Lord Himself suggested that His return is not all about "faith".

If you are going to get people excited about the return of the Lord, at least do it in context?

I do not have a clue what you are trying to say.

 

[Gottservant]

I do not have a clue what you are trying to say.

The Lord does not require faith of people, who still have faith in their doubts.

You may wish pretribbers changed their minds, but the Lord is focussed on His relationship to the Father.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Exactly. To me the faith of the Lord in a world of doubt, is formidable; to you the faith of the Lord in Heaven, is all encompassing. We are looking at different sides of the same coin!

I have no idea of what you're talking about. Do you?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You could say that with more compassion?

The OP is all about the coming of the Lord; I have merely added that the Lord Himself suggested that His return is not all about "faith".

If you are going to get people excited about the return of the Lord, at least do it in context?

Can you try to clarify what you're intending to say in a way that people can actually understand? Who said that the Lord's return is all about faith, whatever that even means?

 

[Gottservant]

Can you try to clarify what you're intending to say in a way that people can actually understand? Who said that the Lord's return is all about faith, whatever that even means?

You are not even seeing words that are printed there, and you expect me to believe you are interested in what I am trying to say?

Let's not fight about this, I was just trying to offer a different perspective on the standard "pretribbers are right/pretribbers are wrong" argument, that's all!

Your Lord is God, I am not doubting that.

 

[WPM]

The Lord does not require faith of people, who still have faith in their doubts.

You may wish pretribbers changed their minds, but the Lord is focussed on His relationship to the Father.

You're talking very cryptically. Until you are prepared to talk normally I will probably just ignore what you're saying.

 

[Keraz]

You're talking very cryptically. Until you are prepared to talk normally I will probably just ignore what you're saying.

What's new? You ignore and denigrate people who do talk sensibly.
You and your SI buddy, are classic demonstrators of how the Lord locks people into their false beliefs. Isaiah 29:9-12

I caution all who vehemently promote their beliefs, as you do, be very sure of what is said, as Judgment is coming and teachers of wrong beliefs will be brought to justice. As we all will be.

 

[IndianaRob]

How could the Gentiles in unbelief know to call upon the Lord to be saved? Until the Gospel of Christ was sent unto them, they could not believe in whom they did not know. They learned of Christ through His Gospel preached unto them. Before the advent of Christ only Israel had heard of the gospel of good tidings to come, but many/most of them did not believe, and died in unbelief. That was the fate of Gentile nations before the advent of Christ sending the Gospel unto all the nations of the world.

Romans 10:13-21 (KJV) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

The gospel was preached to Abraham before Israel existed.

Are we to assume the gospel was preached to non-Jews up until Israel and then the gospel became exclusively for the Jews only?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Any Israelite is free to put their trust in Jesus Christ, the King from the line of David, as their Lord and Savior right now and they will be redeemed and have their sins forgiven and covered by His blood. They can then serve Him without fear all of their days. As Paul said, "If God is for us, who can be against us?" (Romans 8:31). There's nothing to fear when you belong to Christ. What that passage is describing is a reality for all of those who are saved right now.

While everything you say here is true regarding a person's eternal destiny, God's promise to Israel concerns her protection from her enemies. Jesus didn't promise to protect us from danger, oppression, or martyrdom. In fact, He warned us that if they hated him, they would hate us. Why? Their deeds are evil, and our deeds are righteous. When they look at us, they see Jesus, and since they hated Jesus, they will hate us. The same is true of the Jewish people. The Jews are hated for no other reason than the fact that they are known as God's people.

Revelation 7 indicates that the tribulation period will come to an end. 144,000 sons and daughters of Jacob will be marked for protection, and all of Jesus' followers will be raised to meet the Lord in the air.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You read Mt Zion and without seeking to understand where Mt Zion is, you assume it's Mt Zion on earth.

It is on Earth. I don't need to assume it. I can find it on a map. We understand that passage in light of the epistle as a whole. Paul's contrast is not a comparison between the heavenly Zion and the earthly Zion; he compares Mt. Zion with Mt. Sinai. Hebrews 12:18ff describes the day Moses came down from Mt. Sinai and the fact that Israel begged Moses out of fear to keep God away.

Paul isn't suggesting that another Zion exists in heaven. He speaks about a time when Mt. Zion, which is the city of David, will become the city of God and Jerusalem will be heavenly rather than earthly through Jesus Christ.

John's vision is of the spirits of saints who have died in heaven, having been redeemed from earth. These 144,000 represent the remnant of Old Covenant Israelites saved by grace through faith. They had to receive the seal of the living God before they could ascend to heaven, because the Holy Spirit was not sent upon the four corners of the earth until after Christ ascended to heaven and sent Him to be in them. After being sealed, the Gospel is sent unto all the nations of the world, and we see these 144,000 of Old joining the innumerable multitude in heaven. The 144,000 with the innumerable multitude of Gentiles of faith that are also sealed when they believe represent the full embodiment of the spiritual body of Christ in heaven.

Another perspective emerges. The idea of converts being transported into heaven is not seen here. Instead, we see 144k Hebrews, marked by God for protection, presumably because of their fear of the Lord and their avoidance of arrogance and evil deeds, as per Malakai chapter 4. They gather to Mt. Zion to meet with Jesus, as per Zechariah 14. There, they are taught the new song, eternal salvation in Jesus Christ.