The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[Spiritual Israelite]

A review of Luke chapter one may help.

Upon learning that his wife would bear a child who would pave the way for the Messiah, Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke these words about Jesus, inspired by the Holy Spirit.

The following is an excerpt of his speech taken from Luke 1:68-75

Blessed be the Lord God of Israel,​

For He has visited us and accomplished redemption for His people,​

And has raised up a horn of salvation for us​

In the house of David His servant—​

As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from of old—​

Salvation from our enemies,​

And from the hand of all who hate us;​

To show mercy toward our fathers,​

And to remember His holy covenant,​

The oath which He swore to Abraham our father,​

To grant us that we, being rescued from the hand of our enemies,​

Might serve Him without fear,​

In holiness and righteousness before Him all our days.​

​

During the Millennial Period, God will fulfill his promise to Israel. They will be led by a king from the line of David, find redemption, and experience salvation from their enemies. They will remember God's holy covenant and, having been rescued from their enemies, will serve Him without fear in holiness and righteousness before Him all of their days.

Any Israelite is free to put their trust in Jesus Christ, the King from the line of David, as their Lord and Savior right now and they will be redeemed and have their sins forgiven and covered by His blood. They can then serve Him without fear all of their days. As Paul said, "If God is for us, who can be against us?" (Romans 8:31). There's nothing to fear when you belong to Christ. What that passage is describing is a reality for all of those who are saved right now.

 

[CadyandZoe]

That analogy does not apply to what Satan's binding entails.

The following describes Satan being bound (assuming you understand that the strong man represents Satan):

Matthew 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. 29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

So, did Jesus binding the strong man, Satan, and spoiling his house result in complete elimination of the domain of darkness as you think has to be the case for Satan to be bound?

Do you see Jesus' parable as an illustration of Satan's binding? I believe there's more to it. What do you think his parable truly illustrates?

 

[rwb]

What word or phrase indicates that the venue is in heaven? I don't get that.

Let's take this step-by-step.

Revelation 14:1
Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.

I understand that the book of Revelation is highly symbolic, but it is challenging to interpret passages of scripture that contain specific details as symbolic. John practically gives us the address of the meeting. He depicts the Lamb standing on Mount Zion with the 144,000. Our first introduction to the 144,000 is located in chapter 7, where they are given a mark on their hand and forehead, marking them as untouchable—individuals that will not come to harm when the earth, sea, and trees are harmed. This is our first clue that the 144,000 are on the earth. And our second clue is that they meet with Jesus on Mt. Zion, which is located in Jerusalem, the home of David the king.

You read Mt Zion and without seeking to understand where Mt Zion is, you assume it's Mt Zion on earth. The author of Hebrews doesn't believe that Mt Zion is of the earth. In fact, he tells us saints have NOT come to the earthly mount of Old but to Mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, calling it the "general assembly" and "church of the firstborn" and "to God the Judge of all" and "to SPIRITS of just men made perfect" and "to an innumerable company of angels."

Hebrews 12:18-24 (KJV) For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

John's vision is of the spirits of saints who have died in heaven, having been redeemed from earth. These 144,000 represent the remnant of Old Covenant Israelites saved by grace through faith. They had to receive the seal of the living God before they could ascend to heaven, because the Holy Spirit was not sent upon the four corners of the earth until after Christ ascended to heaven and sent Him to be in them. After being sealed, the Gospel is sent unto all the nations of the world, and we see these 144,000 of Old joining the innumerable multitude in heaven. The 144,000 with the innumerable multitude of Gentiles of faith that are also sealed when they believe represent the full embodiment of the spiritual body of Christ in heaven.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I have read it carefully, and I see nothing about heaven.

You're talking about Revelation 14, right? Again, it talks about them being before the throne of God and that is in heaven. And it talks about them being redeemed "FROM the earth". So, they are not on the earth. They are in heaven. This is clear, but it doesn't surprise me that you would miss something as obvious as this.

I disagree with your assumption that John depicts the heavenly throne of God. John is depicting he earthly throne as constructed in Revelation 11. Jesus is standing on Mt. Zion in Jerusalem, which is where his thrown will be.

The throne of God depicted in the book of Revelation is always in heaven. To be redeemed "FROM the earth" means you're not on the earth at that point. You are missing the obvious. You do know that there is not just an earthly Mt. Zion and Jerusalem, but also a heavenly Mt. Zion and heavenly Jerusalem, don't you (Hebrews 12:22)?

When John mentions the 144,000, all of whom are descendants of Jacob, we can understand John's phrase "from the earth" to mean "from the land", indicating a distinct group with a deep historical connection to the land of Israel. The 144,000 are residents of Israel, living at that time in Israel, whom God marked for protection. John depicts them as meeting with Jesus on Mount Zion.

LOL. Nonsense. No, it means from the earth, not the land. As usual, you need to change scripture to make it say what you want it to say which is why you deny the deity of Christ.

Although there is a heavenly throne, there is also an earthly throne, which will be located in Jerusalem.

Wrong. That is not taught anywhere in scripture.

 

[WPM]

How could the Gentiles in unbelief know to call upon the Lord to be saved? Until the Gospel of Christ was sent unto them, they could not believe in whom they did not know. They learned of Christ through His Gospel preached unto them. Before the advent of Christ only Israel had heard of the gospel of good tidings to come, but many/most of them did not believe, and died in unbelief. That was the fate of Gentile nations before the advent of Christ sending the Gospel unto all the nations of the world.

Romans 10:13-21 (KJV) For whosoever shall cwall upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not hearqzd? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is writtena, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

So true! And excellent!

A review of Luke chapter one may help.

Upon learning that his wife would bear a child who would pave the way for the Messiah, Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke these words about Jesus, inspired by the Holy Spirit.

The following is an excerpt of his speech taken from Luke 1:68-75

Blessed be the Lord God of Israel,​

For He has visited us and accomplished redemption for His people,​

And has raised up a horn of salvation for us​

In the house of David His servant—​

As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from of old—​

Salvation from our enemies,​

And from the hand of all who hate us;​

To show mercy toward our fathers,​

And to remember His holy covenant,​

The oath which He swore to Abraham our father,​

To grant us that we, being rescued from the hand of our enemies,​

Might serve Him without fear,​

In holiness and righteousness before Him all our days.​

​

During the Millennial Period, God will fulfill his promise to Israel. They will be led by a king from the line of David, find redemption, and experience salvation from their enemies. They will remember God's holy covenant and, having been rescued from their enemies, will serve Him without fear in holiness and righteousness before Him all of their days.

Can I remind you that He came to Israel 2000 years ago? And guess what? Most of that nation rejected Him. The Gospel has now went out to the nations (plural). We have been grafted into the Israeli olive tree. We are true Israel today. We are the circumcision today. We are the true Jews today, according to the New Testament. You are bogged down in the wrong covenant today. There are no physical land promises under the new covenant to natural israel. The New Testament is full of spiritual promises. The focus is heavenly Jerusalem, not earthly Jerusalem, which is in bondage.

 

[rwb]

A review of Luke chapter one may help.

Upon learning that his wife would bear a child who would pave the way for the Messiah, Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke these words about Jesus, inspired by the Holy Spirit.

The following is an excerpt of his speech taken from Luke 1:68-75

Blessed be the Lord God of Israel,​

For He has visited us and accomplished redemption for His people,​

And has raised up a horn of salvation for us​

In the house of David His servant—​

As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from of old—​

Salvation from our enemies,​

And from the hand of all who hate us;​

To show mercy toward our fathers,​

And to remember His holy covenant,​

The oath which He swore to Abraham our father,​

To grant us that we, being rescued from the hand of our enemies,​

Might serve Him without fear,​

In holiness and righteousness before Him all our days.​

​

During the Millennial Period, God will fulfill his promise to Israel. They will be led by a king from the line of David, find redemption, and experience salvation from their enemies. They will remember God's holy covenant and, having been rescued from their enemies, will serve Him without fear in holiness and righteousness before Him all of their days.

That only makes sense from the words of Zacharias if the millennial period of time began with the birth of John, born to prepare the way for the advent of Christ, whose name would be declared in the spirit of Elijah. Zacharias speaks as though the prophecy he long awaited to be fulfilled began to come to pass with the supernatural birth of his child, John. Do you really believe Zacharias believed the prophecy being fulfilled to Israel of faith through the miraculous birth of his son was not then a reality?

Luke 1:15-17 (KJV) For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

 

[rwb]

If you believe you are not making assumptions or bringing suppositions to the text when you read, then you need to reconsider.

I support what I allege from the Word of God. If you would do the same, you just might learn something. The problem with your method or style of study is that you are forever taking verses out of context to prove what you think, wish, or perhaps hope is true, but unfortunately you're never able to prove what you allege.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So true! And excellent!

Can I remind you that He came to Israel 2000 years ago? And guess what? Most of that nation rejected Him. The Gospel has now went out to the nations (plural). We have been grafted into the Israeli olive tree. We are true Israel today. We are the circumcision today. We are the true Jews today, according to the New Testament. You are bogged down in the wrong covenant today. There are no physical land promises under the new covenant to natural israel. The New Testament is full of spiritual promises. The focus is heavenly Jerusalem, not earthly Jerusalem, which is in bondage.

Exactly. Also, premils forget or miss that Gentile believers are fellowheirs with Israelite believers of God's promises (Ephesians 3:1-6). Those promises apply to Abraham and his seed, which is Christ (Gal 3:16) and all those who belong to Christ (Gal 3:29). But, they never talk about Gentile believers inheriting any land or being recipients of God's promises. They are very ignorant of what the New Testament teaches. Their focus on national Israel is wrong. NT scripture focuses on Jesus Christ and His church, not national Israel.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Do you see Jesus' parable as an illustration of Satan's binding? I believe there's more to it. What do you think his parable truly illustrates?

I see it as being related to that, yes. I believe the strong man represents Satan and the one binding the strong man is Jesus. Do you not believe that the strong man represents Satan?

 

[Davidpt]

I support what I allege from the Word of God.

When you say that are you just meaning in this particular case or are you meaning all the time? If the latter no way do I remotely agree with that. Because, for one, without getting into a debate about this, but anyone who insists OSAS is Biblical but that NOSAS isn't, isn't remotely an example of someone supporting what they allege with the Word of God, for example. That's not the only thing, though. I only needed one example to prove my point.

 

[WPM]

Before I lay out my proof, I need to know that my opponent is willing to be convinced and will examine the evidence fairly and honestly. Some in this thread are willing to do that, while others are not.

Yea, right? Premil are willing, biblical and open. Amils are not. This is the usual foolish mantra of Pretribbers and Premils. Yet, when it comes to clear, explicit Scripture. Premils explain the sacred text away, manipulate and butcher it, at every turn. It gets old after a while. It is a joke.

 

[WPM]

When you say that are you just meaning in this particular case or are you meaning all the time? If the latter no way do I remotely agree with that. Because, for one, without getting into a debate about this, but anyone who insists OSAS is Biblical but that NOSAS isn't, isn't remotely an example of someone supporting what they allege with the Word of God, for example. That's not the only thing, though. I only needed one example to prove my point.

You are so full of nonsense on both. Get off your high chair.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

When you say that are you just meaning in this particular case or are you meaning all the time? If the latter no way do I remotely agree with that. Because, for one, without getting into a debate about this, but anyone who insists OSAS is Biblical but that NOSAS isn't, isn't remotely an example of someone supporting what they allege with the Word of God, for example. That's not the only thing, though. I only needed one example to prove my point.

Good grief. You are just obsessed with OSAS vs. NOSAS. Always bringing that up. This is an eschatology forum, not a soteriology forum. You don't have to try to bring up that topic all the time. Goodness sakes.

Anyway, you missed the point. Agree with him or not, he always shows exactly what he believes and why by showing scripture and showing exactly how he is interpreting it. The person he was talking to rarely does that. He just makes claims left and right and does nothing to show exactly how he is coming to his conclusions using scripture.

 

[MA2444]

We’ll Daniel 9 is the best proof but most people have been duped into believing 70 weeks is 490 years instead of 70 weeks so that the commandment is to rebuild earthly Jerusalem instead of to build heavenly Jerusalem.

Yeah some are not sure which decree to use for the math. Cyrus or artazerxes? I went through it before and realized that it was from Artazerxes.

And prophetic days are usually considered by biblical scholars to be one year. You can conform that easily. That's no dupe, that's how it is. Prophetic calandars (that are used always with prophecy) are 360 day calandars also. But dont believe me, Google it and read all about it. That's what I did when I heard a Pastor coming out with that stuff, and I confirmed it and was like, learn something new everyday...

Which decree is the correct interpretation of Daniel 9:25?

Whilst there are other questions I have found similar to this one, they do not specifically seem to explain the exact start date for the 70 week prophecy in Daniel regarding the command to rebuild

christianity.stackexchange.com

 

[MA2444]

You will not quote the OT passages because they do not say what do you say they do. They make no mention of your imaginary future millennium. You're twisting Scripture, and I suspect you know what.

So you disagree with me. WHat else is new?

I know, after a couple more posts you can start saying that you proved us all wrong with this very post! Your opinion is your proof, right?! Lol.

 

[WPM]

So you disagree with me. WHat else is new?

I know, after a couple more posts you can start saying that you proved us all wrong with this very post! Your opinion is your proof, right?! Lol.

Post after post from Amils remain unaddressed because they cannot be refuted. All you have is short erroneous partial soundbite, insults and avoidance. All of this is a commendation of the veracity of Amil.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So you disagree with me. WHat else is new?

I know, after a couple more posts you can start saying that you proved us all wrong with this very post! Your opinion is your proof, right?! Lol.

You just think all of this is one big joke. Always just clowning around. Are you not interested in backing up any of your claims with scripture? I guess you don't want to be taken seriously then?

 

[MA2444]

Not so bro! LOL. Your posts are potent!

They are avoiding post after post of yours and other Amils. They have nothing. The reader can see that.

I'm about ready to start avoiding your posts too, lol. I'm not going to argue with amils.
Every scripture ever given to you guys is instantly rejected or ignored and you go on preaching post trib rapture trash. So I can't make up my mind if you are really that obtuse or...willfully evil? Trying to talk people out of looking for Christ so they miss the rapture perhaps?

A little steal, kill and destroy? More and more this seems to be the case because of the OCD way that you stay on this dead topic. Cant you ever talk about anything else?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Post after post from Amils remain unaddressed because they cannot be refuted. All you have is short erroneous partial soundbite, insults and avoidance. All of this is a commendation of the veracity of Amil.

It's really amazing to see. You have these childish scoffers who do nothing but scoff at our exegesis of scripture while they do absolutely nothing to back up their claims with scripture.

 

[WPM]

I'm about ready to start avoiding your posts too, lol. I'm not going to argue with amils.
Every scripture ever given to you guys is instantly rejected or ignored and you go on preaching post trib rapture trash. So I can't make up my mind if you are really that obtuse or...willfully evil? Trying to talk people out of looking for Christ so they miss the rapture perhaps?

A little steal, kill and destroy? More and more this seems to be the case because of the OCD way that you stay on this dead topic. Cant you ever talk about anything else?

You promise? Yay!

The reality is: you have nothing to bring to the table. You have no biblical rebuttals. You have nothing but whining, insulting and avoiding.

Good bye!!!