I hate myself, and hate being an atheist.
- Thread starter Cerraco
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When Jesus returns.
P.S.
”If Jesus rose from the dead, then you have to accept all that he said; ifhe didn’t rise from the dead, then why worry about any of what he said? The issue on which everything hangs is not whether or not you like his teaching but whether or not he rose from the dead.” - Timothy Keller
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That may or may not be true. I don’t set dates and don’t have any confidence in those who do.
Everything rests on the resurrection. If that didn’t happen, then Jesus won’t be returning.
I’m fully persuaded that it happened. It’s only a matter of time before he returns.
You, apparently, are open to the possibility but aren’t persuaded. Can you be persuaded? If so, what would it take?
I have no doubt Jesus existed the first time, although I don't know if I agree on the 'rising from the dead' part.
An actual, literal miracle. Something that science could not explain no matter what? But what are the odds of that, right? It is difficult to believe in this kind of stuff when our reality is all we know.
People here tell me to just go with God and everything will get better. There were people infinitely more important and morally sound than me, but some of them die in a plane crash, some of them get cancer, some of them died in 9/11. These are people who prayed to God more than I ever could, and what happened to them?
Resurrection of the dead is a miracle. Science can’t do it. The disciples witnessed it. It is the reality he and they knew.
Carefully examining the resurrection of Jesus is the way for you to become persuaded, if being persuaded is possible.
It may or may not get better for you in this present evil age. In the age to come, it will be infinitely better for you.
Everyone - believer and unbeliever alike - is going to die. Anyone who has told you otherwise isn’t giving you the Messiah’s teaching.
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Lambano
Well-Known Member
There IS a benefit to knowing Jesus in the here-and-now - but getting protection from cancer and car wrecks and random bullets and children who die way too young and busted marriages and betrayal from friends and poverty and so on and so forth ain't it. Whoever told you that lied to you and should know better.
There's a reason Jesus told us, "In this world, you will have trouble - but take heart: I have overcome the world". That's John 16:33, if you're ready to look it up in your Bible.
Let's say I believed in all of that right now. Would it change anything? Not substantially. Let me put it like this, life is life whether you believe in a higher power or not. If I'm born in an impoverished part of say, somewhere in South America, believing in God doesn't make all of that go away.
Where did souls go before Jesus came to Earth? I don't know anything about this "age to come", but it sounds like all the humbled people get to run the Earth. And what of the exalted? This sounds too good to be true.
No one has told me this. My point is this, God is very particular on who he helps and who he doesn't. So it kind of ruins the point of believing in God if the only thing that happens in life is... whatever happens in life. I was told earlier in this thread that "god had a plan for me" because I was a virgin at 35. Thanks universe, I appreciate you making me one of those. So every time I tried to get with a woman, God was warding them away? What about the people who get the girl? What was their "divine plan"? None of this makes sense.
Edit: I would give anything in the world to just vanish from time and space. Forwards and backwards. This is a thought I've had since age 5.
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It might or might not go away. Your focus is placed on the present age and on yourself. Believing in the one true God goes way beyond that.
I’ve been to Africa twice and worked, briefly, in four countries there (Malawi, Mozambique, Zimbabwe and Kenya.) The poorest people in the US - be they believers or unbelievers - are far better off than the poor in those nations. Believers I met there were happier and far better off than unbelievers here.
You are a living soul. One day you will be a dead soul. All dead souls go to the same place, before Jesus came and after Jesus came -> to the grave. That is exactly the same place that Jesus himself went for three days and three nights when he died.
You don’t know anything about it because you haven’t read anything about it (you would have if you read the Bible) and haven’t heard anything about it (you would have if you had been speaking with true disciples of Jesus.)
Even so, from what little you’ve heard me say about it you’ve intuitively grasped that the disciples of Jesus will “run the earth” when he returns -> the coming messianic government of the world spoken about in the Bible.
Those who will be exalted are the disciples of Jesus. Why does it sound too good to be true? It is the gospel / good news that Jesus himself preached. It is the same gospel / good news that the apostles preached.
You’ve been speaking with people who have a much different idea. They couldn’t tell you because it isn’t what they’ve been taught and it isn’t what they believe.
Man, in general, has turned away from God. He still helps all people in a variety of ways.
Whatever happens in life isn’t all that happens in life. There is another life for the disciples of Jesus. Once again, your focus currently is on life in the present age. The story doesn’t end with your death. Everyone, all of the dead, will be resurrected to life. What happens after that is either life in the age to come (immortality) or the second death (the permanent cessation of life.)
That’s coming from blatherskites.
I suggested earlier that you’ve been listening to the wrong people.
Among other things, I’m a retired pastor. I work now (as a volunteer) with neglected, abused and at-risk children. I’ve heard stories similar to yours and they are heartbreaking. (I’m on Christianity Board primarily as an escape, a brief respite, from that traumatic work.) I’m not going to pry into your life but I’ve spent a considerable amount of time with children who, in some cases, have the same desire as you to cease to exist. Most of them can be helped, some cannot; all of them have been grievously harmed. You’re an adult and I believe (based on what I’ve heard you say) that you can be helped, if you truly want to be.
There’s nothing you (nor anyone else) can do about backward.
Forward is a different matter. You can do something about that.
The hopeless path you’re presently on leads to your desired destruction in the lake of fire. All you have to do is continue what you’re already doing: don’t investigate Jesus’ resurrection and forget about his teaching and the future life he offers.
But please know this: There is a path that leads to immortality and ruling the world with Jesus and his disciples. To enter that path you will have to let go of the deeply rooted desire you’ve had since early in your childhood to cease to exist.
It isn’t God’s desire that you cease to exist. It’s Satan’s desire that you cease to exist.
You don’t need me or anyone else to tell you that you aren’t currently aligned with what God wants for you. You’re currently aligned with what the devil wants for you.
P.S.
Do you want help? The Jewish man sitting now at God’s right hand in heaven is able to provide it.
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I'm interested how you validate node's and how you validate the different religious books?
A God who doesn't know why people act, doesn't have a means of establishing a relationship with people, who doesn't have a means of dealing with evil, or who can't recognise evil isn't worth following.
Your problem is that the bible does show that God can and does do this.
It just that you don't accept his right to set the terms.
Hmmm, really? I can't wait to argue that at the third quote.
It was said by someone in this community, in this very thread.
Theeeeere it is, there's that "lake of fire" thing you Christians love to use so much. I knew that was coming up sooner or later. I'd give anything for bad language to be allowed here because I'd give up so much to use it here. I haven't done anything evil, and I don't plan on being evil, but if I don't go into this Jesus stuff, then I go straight to hell. Yeah, that's a god that loves dearly and unconditionally alright! This is trying to have things both ways.
It is very easy to say this garbage when you're already a Christian. It's sort of like a rich person telling a poor person that "money isn't everything!" Says the person who has plenty of it and has nothing to worry about. Maybe you meant something else with that lake of fire stuff, but try being an atheist and hearing that, and it will just deepen someone's atheism.
Go that tell to someone who's had it so bad that they think that no God would ever allow such a life. Go tell him, "Hey man, you know you're going to hell if you don't follow Jesus and stuff right?" I wonder how hard that person would hit you.
I don't know if this is the kind of help I even want.
I don’t doubt it. They’re everywhere.
You’ve been told, erroneously, that you have a choice between going to heaven or going to hell. You don’t.
You have a choice between life and death. You’ve chosen death and, unless you change your mind, you will have it.
I’m not offering you what the others whom you’ve spoken with have offered you. It would be a great mistake to confuse me with them.
I asked in order to gauge your interest. If there is no interest in learning more about what Jesus taught, then I’ll leave you to your discussions with others.
You know Cerraco,
Being Christian isn't a magical thing.
It's a CHOICE that you can make.
Apparently you haven't done so.
If you think that being an atheist is the way to have a good life....
and you're satisfied with your life.....
then that's the way you should go.
IF, you think there's something greater than you...
then you should think about what that might be.
And why come on a site like this seeking advice that could be life-altering?
And after you've had a bad experience with a different forum?
All interesting stuff.
Sounds like you need to make up your mind instead of just talking about your problems.
We all have problems.
Welcome to the club.
Okay, I'm clearly missing something here. So I can get heaven, hell, and this third choice where my soul becomes nothing?
I'm not an atheist becomes it's the most fun thing ever, I'm an atheist (more of an anti-atheist) because that's how the logic comes together.
That other forum temporarily banned me before I even had a chance to explain myself. I was getting some pretty solid advice there until they made my thread disappear completely, taking those good replies with it.
There's more going on in this thread than just me venting my problems. There is a lot I've asked about that either got ignored or skirted around. Although there seems to be some conflicting information between users here that don't quite agree with each other. You want me to study Jesus more, that's fine. But there's been a lot of generic information about God thrown around here that hasn't quite properly covered some things.
You are clearly missing something.
Man has only two choices set before him: life or death.
Man is a mortal soul. All mortal souls die. You, me, Jesus, everyone who has lived and will ever live will die. It is appointed once for man to die. There is nothing man can do to change that. There is no escape from it. No man can choose not to die. Mortality always ends in death.
The choice man has is between life -> the life of age to come (immortality) and death -> the second death (annihilation).
Immortal souls aren’t subject to death -> they aren’t subject to the first death; they aren’t subject to the second death. In other words, an immortal person simply cannot die.
God alone inherently possesses immortality. God alone cannot die. God will never die. He is immortal.
The creator cannot die. The created, without exception, will die. But that isn’t the end of man’s story.
Man can become immortal.
You haven’t expressed any interest that I’m aware of in becoming immortal. The people you’ve been speaking with believe that you and they (as well as all other human beings) were born with an immortal soul. You weren’t, and neither were they or anyone else. All they‘ve done with their talk is place Platonic ideas in your head and confuse you. My advice: Listen to Jesus, not Plato.
If it were true that man inherently is, or has, an immortal soul, then man cannot die. (It was the devil, in the Garden of Eden, who lied when he said: “You will not die.”) Look around you. You know for a fact that man dies. It happens every day - approximately 150,000 times every day, worldwide.
Unlike mortal life, which every man has, immortal life is a gift from God, and not everyone will receive it.
Jesus’ teaching and preaching is all about God’s immortality plan for man.
***
Heaven? No one goes there when they die. Even Jesus didn’t go there when he died. He was in the grave, the tomb, for three days and three nights. He went to heaven 40 days after he was bodily resurrected from the grave. He was mortal before he died. He was raised from the grave immortal.
Hell, that is, the grave? Everyone goes there when they die. No man can avoid it. There is no activity in the grave. The dead are lifeless.
Bodily resurrection? Everyone who has died will eventually be bodily resurrected from the grave - some, those who belong to Jesus, when Jesus returns, to inherit immortal life; everyone else will be raised briefly to mortal life a thousand years later, in order to be judged by Jesus, based on what they did in life.
Hell, that is, the lake of fire? This is not the grave. It is the place where punishment is administered to the incorrigibly wicked. The punishment for them is the second death, not immortal life. The punished are consumed in the fire; reduced to smoke and ashes. They will be annihilated; permanently ceasing to exist.
“Yahweh God formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.”
(Genesis 2:7, WEB)
That’s where you want to start @Cerraco. That is the origin of man. A living soul - dust and the breath of life - (a man, a person, even an animal) is a mortal soul, not an immortal soul.)
”For you are dust, and you shall return to dust.”
(Genesis 3:19, WEB)
Dust + the breath of life = a living soul.
Dust - the breath of life = a dead soul.
That’s mortality.
“The wages paid by sin, you see, are death; …”
(Romans 6:23a, NTFE)
The first death which every mortal soul will experience.
“… but God’s free gift is the life of the age to come, in the Messiah, Jesus our Lord.”
(Romans 6:23,b, NTFE)
The life of the age to come. That’s immortality. We don’t naturally have it. It is a gift that man can receive from God.
If you continue to have a death wish, then you‘ll have no interest in hearing Jesus and the apostles explain how to receive the gift of immortality. You’ll perish.
But if you are able to put aside your long-held desire to perish, if you acquire the desire to live forever - that is, to one day become immortal and reign with Jesus on the earth when he returns - then see what Jesus has done, listen to what Jesus taught, understand what he requires, repent of your sin and you will be forgiven.
Be saved (eternal life) or perish (the second death).
The invitation is to believe and be baptized. The invitation is to receive the free gift of life offered by God that will never end.
”But when they believed Philip [one of the Messiah’s apostles] preaching good news concerning God’s kingdom and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.”
(Acts 8:12, WEB)
That’s what a mortal man / soul must do in order to become an immortal man / soul.
(Genesis 2:7, WEB)
That’s where you want to start @Cerraco. That is the origin of man. A living soul - dust and the breath of life - (a man, a person, even an animal) is a mortal soul, not an immortal soul.)
”For you are dust, and you shall return to dust.”
(Genesis 3:19, WEB)
Dust + the breath of life = a living soul.
Dust - the breath of life = a dead soul.
That’s mortality.
“The wages paid by sin, you see, are death; …”
(Romans 6:23a, NTFE)
The first death which every mortal soul will experience.
“… but God’s free gift is the life of the age to come, in the Messiah, Jesus our Lord.”
(Romans 6:23,b, NTFE)
The life of the age to come. That’s immortality. We don’t naturally have it. It is a gift that man can receive from God.
If you continue to have a death wish, then you‘ll have no interest in hearing Jesus and the apostles explain how to receive the gift of immortality. You’ll perish.
But if you are able to put aside your long-held desire to perish, if you acquire the desire to live forever - that is, to one day become immortal and reign with Jesus on the earth when he returns - then see what Jesus has done, listen to what Jesus taught, understand what he requires, repent of your sin and you will be forgiven.
Be saved (eternal life) or perish (the second death).
The invitation is to believe and be baptized. The invitation is to receive the free gift of life offered by God that will never end.
”But when they believed Philip [one of the Messiah’s apostles] preaching good news concerning God’s kingdom and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.”
(Acts 8:12, WEB)
That’s what a mortal man / soul must do in order to become an immortal man / soul.
What logic?
You look around you.
You see a creation.
Does a creation require a creator?
If not, HOW did everything come about?
Some single cell something or other that walked out of the primordial soup turned to water and somehow became a human?
This is impossible.
I could post some videos for you if you'd like some respected scientists speak to this.
Not a nice forum. A good forum will always try to make you feel welcomed....if things get out of hand, you should be warned before any action is taken. No one is perfect and they should be helping you with the forum rules. I wouldn't go back there even when the ban is over.
Because members here are posting for different reasons....I doubt there are any psychologists around that believe in God and are qualified to help you. The problem on these forums is that everyone thinks they have the right answer - including me -.... seems to me you should read the New Testament, if you haven't already, and try to come to your own conclusions and see what the NT teaches you. Start with the gospel of John at the beginning of the NT. See what you think about this person named Jesus. Was He sent by God or not? Does HE make any logical sense to you?
This is why you must study on your own first....and THEN seek more information.
There's a member on here that's telling you hell doesn't even exist.
Is that true?
Read through John and come to your own conclusion.
Which one of us can you trust?
Difficult question.
But you can trust yourself and you can trust God.
“For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.”
(John 3:16, NET)
Every person who attended Sunday School as a child soon learns this verse @Cerraco.
“Perish” -> the first death and the second death; mortality / end of life. There is no recovery from the second death. It’s an extinction event.
“Eternal life” -> the life of the age to come; immortality / never ending life. It is tied to our bodily resurrection from the grave. It is awarded to believers at the second coming of Jesus.
Believe and be saved. Don’t believe and perish. That’s simple and straightforward.
Life or death. The two choices we are all confronted with in the Bible.
What you’ve been told by others isn’t the simple life or death teaching of the Bible but rather the life (in heaven) or life (in hell) teaching that has crept into Christianity through the influence of Platonism.
A book recommendation, for you and for all. Immortality of the Soul or Resurrection of the Dead?: The Witness of the New Testament written by Oscar Cullman, a Christian theologian.
A few excerpts offered for your consideration:
”… widespread is the mistake of attributing to primitive Christianity the Greek belief in the immortality of the soul.” - p. 6
There is “a radical difference between the Christian expectation of the resurrection of the dead and the Greek belief in the immortality of the soul.” - p. 7
”IF WE WERE to ask an ordinary Christian today (whether well-read Protestant or Catholic, or not) what he conceived to be the New Testament teaching concerning the fate of man after death, with few exceptions we should get the answer: ‘The immortality of the soul.‘ Yet this widely-accepted idea is one of the greatest misunderstandings of Christianity.” - p. 15
That is what you‘ve run up against in your conversations with others.
”On his missionary journeys Paul surely met people who were unable to believe in his preaching of the resurrection for the very reason that they believed in the immortality of the soul.” - p. 59
(John 3:16, NET)
Every person who attended Sunday School as a child soon learns this verse @Cerraco.
“Perish” -> the first death and the second death; mortality / end of life. There is no recovery from the second death. It’s an extinction event.
“Eternal life” -> the life of the age to come; immortality / never ending life. It is tied to our bodily resurrection from the grave. It is awarded to believers at the second coming of Jesus.
Believe and be saved. Don’t believe and perish. That’s simple and straightforward.
Life or death. The two choices we are all confronted with in the Bible.
What you’ve been told by others isn’t the simple life or death teaching of the Bible but rather the life (in heaven) or life (in hell) teaching that has crept into Christianity through the influence of Platonism.
A book recommendation, for you and for all. Immortality of the Soul or Resurrection of the Dead?: The Witness of the New Testament written by Oscar Cullman, a Christian theologian.
A few excerpts offered for your consideration:
”… widespread is the mistake of attributing to primitive Christianity the Greek belief in the immortality of the soul.” - p. 6
There is “a radical difference between the Christian expectation of the resurrection of the dead and the Greek belief in the immortality of the soul.” - p. 7
”IF WE WERE to ask an ordinary Christian today (whether well-read Protestant or Catholic, or not) what he conceived to be the New Testament teaching concerning the fate of man after death, with few exceptions we should get the answer: ‘The immortality of the soul.‘ Yet this widely-accepted idea is one of the greatest misunderstandings of Christianity.” - p. 15
That is what you‘ve run up against in your conversations with others.
”On his missionary journeys Paul surely met people who were unable to believe in his preaching of the resurrection for the very reason that they believed in the immortality of the soul.” - p. 59
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