Open Debate Challenge on My Defending the KJV as the Perfect Word for Today in English

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Rockerduck

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The difference between the NKJV and KJV translations of Hebrews 4:8 hinges on the name used—"Joshua" in the NKJV and "Jesus" in the KJV. Both refer to the same person, but the context determines which name is appropriate.

Context and Translation:
Greek Text: The original Greek uses the name "Ἰησοῦς" (Iēsous), which is the same name used for both "Jesus" and "Joshua."
Contextual Understanding:
Joshua: The verse is referring to the Old Testament figure Joshua, who led the Israelites into the Promised Land. The context in Hebrews 4 discusses rest, a theme related to the Israelites' journey and the rest that God promised them in the land of Canaan. The argument is that if Joshua had given them ultimate rest, there wouldn’t have been a need to speak of another rest (or day) that comes through Jesus Christ.
Jesus: The KJV, using "Jesus," reflects the ambiguity in the Greek text, as "Iēsous" can refer to either Jesus or Joshua. However, the intended reference is likely Joshua, given the Old Testament context.
Correct Translation:
NKJV ("Joshua"): This is contextually accurate, as it correctly identifies the Old Testament figure, Joshua.
KJV ("Jesus"): While linguistically accurate, it might cause confusion without understanding the historical context since "Jesus" and "Joshua" are the same name in Greek but refer to different individuals.
Thus, "Joshua" in the NKJV provides a clearer understanding of the passage, making it the more contextually accurate translation for this verse.

Hebrews 4:8 is part of a larger discussion in the Book of Hebrews about the concept of "rest" that God offers to His people. To understand the context of this verse, it is essential to examine the surrounding passages and the overarching themes of Hebrews 3 and 4.

Overview of the Context:
Theme of Rest: The author of Hebrews is discussing the "rest" that God promised to His people, originally related to the Israelites entering the Promised Land under Joshua's leadership (Hebrews 4:1-10). This "rest" was seen as a physical rest in the land of Canaan, but the author of Hebrews argues that this was not the ultimate rest that God intended for His people.

Failure of the Israelites: In Hebrews 3:7-19, the author warns believers by recalling the Israelites' failure to enter God’s rest due to their disobedience and lack of faith in the wilderness. Despite God's promise, that generation did not enter the rest because of their unbelief. This historical event is used as an admonition for the readers to hold onto faith and obedience.

Rest Beyond the Promised Land: The author extends the concept of "rest" beyond the physical rest in Canaan, emphasizing a spiritual rest that is still available to God's people. This rest is connected with God’s ultimate rest after creation (Hebrews 4:4) and is fulfilled in Christ. The rest that Joshua provided was temporary and incomplete, pointing forward to the greater rest that Jesus offers.

Joshua vs. Jesus: Hebrews 4:8 argues that the rest provided by Joshua was not the final rest because "another day" of rest is still spoken of. This suggests that the rest Joshua provided was a type, a foreshadowing of the greater, eternal rest that comes through Jesus Christ. The author is making a theological point that the rest offered by Jesus is superior and more complete than the rest that Joshua could provide.

Key Verses Leading Up to 4:8:
Hebrews 4:1-2: The chapter begins with a warning not to fall short of entering God's rest, which is still available through faith.
Hebrews 4:3-7: These verses discuss how some have entered God's rest, while others have not due to disobedience. The author quotes Psalm 95 to emphasize that the opportunity to enter God’s rest is still available "Today."
Hebrews 4:9-10: After verse 8, the author concludes that there remains a "Sabbath rest" for the people of God, indicating that this rest is ongoing and spiritual in nature, connected to the rest that Jesus provides.
Contextual Analysis of Hebrews 4:8:
Historical Reference: The verse points back to the time of Joshua, who led the Israelites into the Promised Land. However, even after Joshua’s leadership, the concept of rest is still spoken of, indicating that Joshua did not provide the ultimate rest.
Spiritual Rest in Christ: The verse is part of the argument that the true, ultimate rest comes not from entering a physical land but from a spiritual relationship with God through Jesus Christ. This rest is characterized by peace, salvation, and eternal life.

Hebrews 4:8 highlights the distinction between the temporary rest provided by Joshua and the eternal rest provided by Jesus. The author of Hebrews uses this distinction to encourage believers to strive to enter the true rest that is available in Christ, which surpasses the incomplete rest offered under the old covenant. The verse serves as a reminder that God's promise of rest is not limited to a past historical event but is an ongoing, spiritual reality for believers today.

How do you approach reading the Bible? Do you pick verses here and there, overlooking the broader context and questioning the reliability of the KJV?
All that is understood. However, the translators of the KJB wanted to be clear of whom was the greater rest, which was Jesus. I always use scripture to answer scripture. One verse has to equal and clarify the other. The KJB is best at this because the translators knew the scriptures and how to match continuity throughout.
 
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Johann

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All that is understood. However, the translators of the KJB wanted to be clear of whom was the greater rest, which was Jesus. I always use scripture to answer scripture. One verse has to equal and clarify the other. The KJB is best at this because the translators knew the scriptures and how to match continuity throughout.
I concur-hence the Imperative to study context as I am not into "proof-texting"
 

Phoneman777

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To all:

I have defended the KJV as the perfect Word for today on this forum.

I open the challenge to any Christian here to a debate on YouTube via Nick Sayers channel (Revolution). I challenge any Christian who does not believe the King James Bible is the perfect and inspired words of God for the English speaking people of today.

If you are interested in debating me live on YouTube, please let me know and I can have Nick arrange it. You will of course have time to prepare.

Thanks for your time.

May God bless you in Jesus name.
Then the Bible, that serpent which, with head erect and eyes flashing, threatens us with its venom while it trails along the ground, shall be changed again into a rod as soon as we are able to seize it....for three centuries past, this cruel asp has left us no repose, you well know with what folds it entwines us and with what fangs it gnaws us.”
Wow, who wrote that?
And, to what "three centuries" are they referring to?


It is the Jesuits and their absolute hatred of the only true Greek NT Word of God, the Textus Receptus. For "three centuries", from the 16th century to the 19th century, the God-ordained Protestant Reformation struck one blow after another at Satan's headquarters in Rome using the only weapon in the Armory of God: the Word. Our beloved KJV is nothing less than a priceless treasure bequeathed to us, I believe, by God Himself.

Did these Jesuits achieve their goal of changing the Bible back into a rod? Oh yes! The TR is now regarded as "the worst" NT translation, while that filthy "Critical Text" which comes to us via Rome's "Western Family MSS" and Satan's "Alexandrian Family MSS" is regarded as the "better MSS". I really like J. Vernon Mcgee, but I cringe when I hear him say that.

It was once forbidden under penalty of death for anyone to possess a Bible or to have it translated in anything but the dead "Latin" to keep people from finding out about grace and the papal antichrist written about therein. But, today? Rome's perfectly happy for everyone to have a Bible (as long as it's a new version, that is).
 
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Johann

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Then the Bible, that serpent which, with head erect and eyes flashing, threatens us with its venom while it trails along the ground, shall be changed again into a rod as soon as we are able to seize it....for three centuries past, this cruel asp has left us no repose, you well know with what folds it entwines us and with what fangs it gnaws us.”
The quote you provided is often attributed to the French Enlightenment writer and philosopher Voltaire (1694–1778). Voltaire was a vocal critic of organized religion, particularly Christianity, and the Catholic Church. He was known for his sharp wit, advocacy for civil liberties, and criticism of religious dogma.

The quote metaphorically describes the Bible as a serpent, a dangerous and venomous creature, which Voltaire hoped would eventually be tamed or neutralized. This imagery reflects Voltaire's belief that the Bible, as interpreted and enforced by religious authorities, had been used to suppress reason and critical thinking. However, it is important to note that while this quote is widely attributed to Voltaire, there is some debate about its exact origin and authenticity.
 

Phoneman777

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The quote you provided is often attributed to the French Enlightenment writer and philosopher Voltaire (1694–1778). Voltaire was a vocal critic of organized religion, particularly Christianity, and the Catholic Church. He was known for his sharp wit, advocacy for civil liberties, and criticism of religious dogma.

The quote metaphorically describes the Bible as a serpent, a dangerous and venomous creature, which Voltaire hoped would eventually be tamed or neutralized. This imagery reflects Voltaire's belief that the Bible, as interpreted and enforced by religious authorities, had been used to suppress reason and critical thinking. However, it is important to note that while this quote is widely attributed to Voltaire, there is some debate about its exact origin and authenticity.
It's possible that it's not a valid quote, but the number of quotes considered to be of "questionable origin" doesn't fit the law of averages - the papacy spent hundreds of years turning murder of innocent Christians into pretty much a spectator sport, yet if we believe the skeptics, the papacy never uttered a harsh word against the truth.