When are the dead and living in Christ caught up to the Lord?

[Spiritual Israelite]

The dead in Christ rise FIRST….

1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

But the rest of the dead rise AFTER the thousand years…

Here is the seperate resurrection of the physically dead sinners….

“But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Here is the resurrection of the “rest of the dead”….

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

LOL. Are you afraid to address my point directly? You have multiple HOURS coming when the dead will be raised, but Jesus said a singular HOUR is coming when all of the dead will be raised. You are making John 5:28-29 say what you want it to say instead of accepting what Jesus actually said.

As for the dead in Christ rising first, the context of that is that they first rise from the dead and then they, along with those who are alive and remain, are caught up to meet the Lord in the air. Them rising first is not being contrasted with the unsaved rising from the dead, but rather is simply saying that the dead in Christ must first rise from the dead before anyone is caught up to meet the Lord in the air. That has nothing to do with the dead in Christ rising first and then dead unbelievers supposedly rising 1,000+ years later. Stop taking scripture out of context just to make it fit your doctrine.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

LOL. Are you afraid to address my point directly? You have multiple HOURS coming when the dead will be raised, but Jesus said a singular HOUR is coming when all of the dead will be raised. You are making John 5:28-29 say what you want it to say instead of accepting what Jesus actually said.

As for the dead in Christ rising first, the context of that is that they first rise from the dead and then they, along with those who are alive and remain, are caught up to meet the Lord in the air. Them rising first is not being contrasted with the unsaved rising from the dead, but rather is simply saying that the dead in Christ must first rise from the dead before anyone is caught up to meet the Lord in the air. That has nothing to do with the dead in Christ rising first and then dead unbelievers supposedly rising 1,000+ years later. Stop taking scripture out of context just to make it fit your doctrine.

Why can’t you understand the scriptures I posted? The saints are judged first, the dead in Christ rise first, but the rest of the dead sinners do not until after the thousand years.

Believe it or not.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Why can’t you understand the scriptures I posted? The saints are judged first,

What scripture says the saints are judged first with the lost being judged 1,000+ years later? How does that line up with Matthew 25:31-46 which has both saints and the lost being gathered and judged at the same time? Other scriptures like Matthew 13:36-43 and Matthew 13:47-50 also have both the saved and the lost being judged at the same time. Why do you not take passages like those into account?

the dead in Christ rise first, but the rest of the dead sinners do not until after the thousand years.

Believe it or not.

Why can't you understand the scriptures I posted, such as John 5:28-29 and Matthew 25:31-46? Show me where 1 Thess 4:14-17 contrasts the resurrection of the dead in Christ with the resurrection of the dead who are not in Christ. Good luck. It can't be done. You are taking that out of context. What Paul was saying there is that what first has to happen after Jesus descends from heaven is that the dead in Christ are resurrected. Next, after that, the resurrected dead in Christ are caught up with those who are alive and remain to meet the Lord in the air. That is the context of the dead in Christ rising first. Why are you taking it out of context?

And why do you believe that multiple HOURS are coming when the dead will be raised when Jesus said a singular HOUR is coming when all of the dead will be raised (John 5:28-29)? Why do you go out of your way to avoid addressing this point?

 

[honeycomb]

What happens to the righteous when Jesus comes? What happens to the wicked when Jesus comes?

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

- Matthew 25:31-46 (KJV)

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

What scripture says the saints are judged first with the lost being judged 1,000+ years later?

Revelation 20

King James Version

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20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[WPM]

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

- Matthew 25:31-46 (KJV)

Amen, the righteous are glorified and rewarded and the wicked are destroyed (being cast into everlasting fire) when Jesus returns. Amen! I agree. This disallows any survivors.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Revelation 20​

​

King James Version​

​

​

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

You take scripture after scripture after scripture out of context. Judgment being given to the saints is not the saints being judged. Notice they sit upon thrones. Will believers sit upon thrones to be judged? No, of course not. That doesn't make any sense. No, we will bow before the throne of Christ to be judged while giving an account of ourselves (Romans 14:10-12, 2 Corinthians 5:10).

Judgment being given to them means authority to judge is being given to them as the following scripture talks about:

1 Corinthians 6:1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? 2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? 4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. 5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?

Is Matthew 25:31-46 in your Bible or not? Show me where that passage indicates that the saved are judged 1,000+ years before the lost. And then show me where that is indicated in Matthew 13:36-43 and Matthew 13:47-50 as well.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Premils are always making scripture say what they want it to say. They don't take Jesus at His word when He said an hour, not hours, is coming when all the dead will be raised (John 5:28-29).

They don't take Jesus at His word when He indicates that all people, saved and lost, will be gathered and judged at the same time (Matt 13:36-43, Matt 13:47-50, Matt 25:31-46).

They don't accept that Paul taught that Jesus's resurrection was the first resurrection (Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20).

They don't accept when Jesus said just as all unbelievers were killed by the flood in Noah's day and all unbelievers in Sodom were killed in Lot's day "Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed" (Luke 17:30). They instead insist that some unbelievers will somehow survive His second coming despite what Jesus indicated. And despite what Paul indicated in 1 Thess 5:2-3 and 2 Thess 1:7-10 and what Peter indicated in 2 Peter 3:10-12. As if Jesus and these NT authors didn't have as much understanding as the OT prophets whose prophecies premils base their doctrine on.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

Judgment being given to the saints is not the saints being judged.

1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must (((begin)))at the house of God: and if it ((first begin at us,)) what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Daniel 7:21-22

King James Version

​

21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

1 Peter 4:17​

For the time is come that judgment must (((begin)))at the house of God: and if it ((first begin at us,)) what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?​

​

Daniel 7:21-22​

​

King James Version​

​

​

21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

More scripture tag. Again, there is no description of anyone being judged there in Revelation 20:4 or in Daniel 7:22. You don't get judged if you sit on thrones. But, go ahead and keep ignoring context if that's what you want to do. And, go ahead and ignore passages like Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 25:31-46 which show the saved and the lost being gathered AT THE SAME TIME and being judged when Jesus comes at the end of the age. Just continue cherry picking scripture and making it say what you want it to say while ignoring the rest of scripture if that's what you choose to do.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

You don't get judged if you sit on thrones.

Are you sure?

9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.(= a thousand years)

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Are you sure?

9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.(= a thousand years)

Yes, I'm sure. That doesn't say anything about anyone sitting on thrones while they are being judged. Judgment being given to the saints does not equate to the saints being judged. Them being on thrones indicates that they are taking part in the judging in some way and not being judged themselves. You apparently have a strange idea of what thrones represent.

The books are not opened for judgment until after the thousand years (Revelation 20:11-15), but you have them being opened for judgment before the thousand years. As for Daniel 7:12, that is a parenthetical verse that refers to what previously happened to the first three beasts which refer to the Babylonian, Media-Persian and Greek empires which are long gone. That verse has nothing to do with any period of time following Christ's return.

But, please, if you insist on being wrong about all this, then go ahead and ignore passages like Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 25:31-46 which show the saved and the lost being gathered AT THE SAME TIME and being judged when Jesus comes at the end of the age. Just continue cherry picking scripture and making it say what you want it to say while ignoring the rest of scripture if that's what you choose to do.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

Judgment being given to the saints does not equate to the saints being judged.

You don’t think God judges His people?

“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

I think you are wrong.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You don’t think God judges His people?

Is that what I said? No, I did not. I am disagreeing with what it means for the saints to be given thrones for judgment and not saying that God doesn't judge His people. Pay attention to what I'm actually saying, please. All people, including God's people and those who are not God's people, will stand before the judgment seat of Christ (Romans 14:10-12) and that will happen when Jesus comes with His angels, as portrayed in Matthew 25:31-46. That passage is a big problem for your doctrine as your doctrine completely contradicts it. It has all people being judged at the same time while you believe that only believers are judged when Jesus returns and unbelievers are judged 1,000+ years later. You contradict what Jesus clearly taught.

“For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

I think you are wrong.

Your straw man is wrong, but I'm not.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

I am disagreeing with what it means for the saints to be given thrones for judgment and not saying that God doesn't judge

That is not the saints being given thrones for judgment, you are wrong again.

“I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.”

You guys have some whacky ideas.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That is not the saints being given thrones for judgment, you are wrong again.

“I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.”

You guys have some whacky ideas.

You are not making much of an effort to understand what we're saying, that's for sure. And your interpretations are completely biased. And you are doing nothing to show how passages like John 5:28-29, Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50, Matthew 25:31-46, 2 Peter 3:10-12 and others can be reconciled with your doctrine. Absolutely nothing. You cherry pick verses to support your doctrine and either ignore or butcher other ones to keep your doctrine afloat.

You are equating Daniel 7:9 with Revelation 20:4, right?

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

It says they sit upon the thrones. Talk about wacky! Sitting upon thrones to be judged? LOL. That's beyond wacky. You sit on a throne to judge, not to be judged. That is not portraying the day of judgment which is when BOTH the saved and the lost are judged, as shown in passages like Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 25:31-46. Tell me where unbelievers are shown being judged in Revelation 20:4? You can't. So, your idea about what that verse means is wacky. Revelation 20:11-15 portrays the day of judgment, not Revelation 20:4.

Tell me, do you believe the following verses are referring to the same event:

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Davy]

Of course that Isaiah 61:2 portion in red was going to happen in the future for that generation of Jews which Christ was speaking to concerning the "days of vengeance".

That above statement shows you do not... really believe or understand why Jesus did not quote that last phrase of Isaiah 61:2 at the start of His Ministry.

You really need to ADMIT that last part "days of vengeance" is about the END of this present world, which is documented in God's Word to happen on the last day of this world with the "day of the Lord" events. That is about Christ's 2nd coming at the very end of this world.

So, is that a future event just for JEWS? Of course not! This is why you need to learn to recognize within that Luke 21 Chapter that Jesus covered events for the very end, and also the destruction of 70 A.D. Jerusalem as a 'pattern' for the final destruction on the day of Christ's future return.

 

[Timtofly]

I am changing nothing revelation. I just understand that the wrath of God is over at the 7th trumpet and the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord.

Except for the fact that 42 months later, after Satan's empire, the 7 vials are poured out. What are they called?

"And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth."

This comes after Revelation 13.

 

[Timtofly]

I didn't even bring up the title of the "Day of the Lord". What does that have to do with what I wrote? It is difficult for me to follow your train of thought many times, Timtofly. Lots of bouncing around from one subject to another with some unrelated stuff thrown in.

The Day of the Lord is the events that last 1,000 years after the Second Coming. The Day of the Lord that has not happened yet.

You said the length of time is smack dab in the middle of Adam's punishment.

There was a Day of the Lord before Adam was placed in the Garden of Eden, and 6,000 years of punishment ends with another Day of the Lord Sabbath. Adam's punishment is in the middle of two Days of the Lord.

 

[Timtofly]

The Church is in heaven before the seals are opened.

The trumpets are the seventh seal Day of the Lord the one year wrath of God.


Not even the slightest chance that you can produce any scriptural support. Why do you claim this? There is no scripture just a sledgehammer.




You need to start with the basics. The second coming occurs at the 6th seal. Jesus remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. We can prove this.

You offered no Scripture either. Matthew 13 tells us about the final harvest of the 7 Thunders. Jesus and the angels will be present on the earth.