When are the dead and living in Christ caught up to the Lord?

[Spiritual Israelite]

Who is this third group that you invent that are too wicked to be caught up to meet Jesus but too righteous to be destroyed?

There isn't one, of course. Premils always have to invent this imaginary third group which contradicts many scriptures. Jesus put all people into two groups. He said "He that is not with me is against me" (Matt 12:30). Every person is either with or against Christ. Saved or lost. That's two groups. That's why He talked about wheat and tares, good fish and bad fish, sheep and goats, just and unjust, they that have done good and they that have done evil. There is no third group.

 

[honeycomb]

Where does Paul indicate that it applies to everyone? Notice that the context is in relation to inheriting the kingdom of God (1 Cor 15:50) and that no mortal flesh and blood can inherit it. So, the context is only in relation to believers there since unbelievers will obviously not inherit the kingdom of God.


Spiritual bodies are immortal bodies. This is nonsense. You are making things up. You have a belief all to yourself. Does God just reveal things only to you? Certainly not. Get down off the pedestal you have put yourself on. There is no basis whatsoever for claiming that spiritual bodies are not immortal bodies.


What are you even talking about? There is no mystery to what Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 15:50-54. He revealed a mystery there. You are turning it into a mystery with your incomprehensible interpretation of it.

Truly, I don’t know where to start because there is so much that is wrong in what you believe.

 

[honeycomb]

Can you quote one single explicit second coming text that describes mortal or wicked surviving Christ's glorious return?

I’m sorry but I don’t understand your question. There are many folks who have never been taught the Word of God. In the Millennium, they will be taught. They will be in their mortal bodies at this time.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Truly, I don’t know where to start because there is so much that is wrong in what you believe.

This is what people say when they have dreamed up a convoluted, incomprehensible doctrine all their own. I can't take you seriously. The truth should be able to be explained. Your inability to explain your belief says it all.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

Repopulate? How so? (Remember, we’re in our spiritual bodies in the millennium).

There is going to be mortals and immortals on earth during the thousand year reign of Christ on the earth. The saints shall rule them with a rod of iron.

There is going to a “few men left”(mortals) on earth after it is cleansed by fire that will repopulate the earth during the thousand years.

Matthew 24:22
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened

Isaiah 10:16-19

King James Version

​

16 Therefore shall the Lord, the Lord of hosts, send among his fat ones leanness; and under his glory he shall kindle a burning like the burning of a fire.
17 And the light of Israel shall be for a fire, and his Holy One for a flame: and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers in one day;
18 And shall consume the glory of his forest, and of his fruitful field, both soul and body: and they shall be as when a standard-bearer fainteth.
19 And the rest of the trees of his forest shall be few, that a child may write them.

Isaiah 24:6
Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.

Ezekiel 39:2
And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:

This remnant of the mortals shall repopulate the earth “as the sand of the sea” in number during the thousand years.

Revelation 20:8
And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

 

[honeycomb]

There is going to be mortals and immortals on earth during the thousand year reign of Christ on the earth. The saints shall rule them with a rod of iron.

Right.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I’m sorry but I don’t understand your question. There are many folks who have never been taught the Word of God. In the Millennium, they will be taught. They will be in their mortal bodies at this time.

You said everyone would have spiritual bodies at that point. Where does scripture teach that spiritual bodies are mortal bodies? Nowhere. Paul contrasted the spiritual body with the natural body, which is a mortal body. The body we have now which will die (unless Jesus comes first). The spiritual body is immortal.

1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

 

[honeycomb]

Matthew 24:22
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened

This is going back to the end times (Olivet Prophecy); this is before the millennium.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

This is going back to the end times (Olivet Prophecy); this is before the millennium.

Right, the wrath of God upon the whole world happens before the thousand years.

“For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.”

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

Where does it indicate that "the goats are sinners that are alive on earth at the time of Christ's coming"?

Why would they not include "they that have done evil" who are resurrected unto "damnation", as Jesus talked about here:

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

How do you interpret the above passage?

Do you believe the sheep/saints inherit the kingdom of God at that point (when Christ comes again)? Surely, "the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" that they inherit at that time is the kingdom of God, right?

Because the physically dead sinners are not resurrected until a thousand years after the dead in Christ are resurrected.

Revelation 20:5
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Because the physically dead sinners are not resurrected until a thousand years after the dead in Christ are resurrected.

Why do you avoid specifically addressing my points and answering my questions? What you're saying contradicts what Jesus said. Please address this.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

How do you interpret the above passage? Please answer this question.

Do you believe the sheep/saints inherit the kingdom of God at that point (when Christ comes again)? Surely, "the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" that they inherit at that time is the kingdom of God, right? Please answer this question.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Right, the wrath of God upon the whole world happens before the thousand years.

“For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.”

That verse refers to great tribulation described in Matthew 24:15-21 which was not global, but rather was local to Judea. That is talking about what happened in 70 AD. This is even more clear in the parallel passage of Luke 21:20-24.

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Jesus was talking about these days when the Roman armies surrounded Jerusalem and then proceeded to destroy the city and the sanctuary just as Daniel prophesied (Daniel 9:26). God is the one who ensured that not all in Jerusalem were killed. As Luke indicated, some of their lives were spared and they were "led away captive into all nations".

What Luke called "the times of the Gentiles" continued after that right up until today and will continue up until the day Christ returns.

 

[honeycomb]

Where does scripture teach that spiritual bodies are mortal bodies? Nowhere.

1 Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

… note: Not all men's bodies are made up of flesh and blood because…

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

Terrestrial
G1919
??????????
epigeios
ep-ig'-i-os
From G1909 and G1093; worldly (physically or morally): - earthly, in earth, terrestrial.

Celestial
G2032
????????????
epouranios
ep-oo-ran'-ee-os
From G1909 and G3772; above the sky: - celestial, (in) heaven (-ly), high.

41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

We are all given spiritual bodies when our flesh (natural) body dies, both the saved and the unsaved.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

If we are still alive in our flesh bodies at Christ's return, we will also be changed into our spiritual bodies. Remember, we are talking about bodies here, not souls.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

That is not to say we will have become immortal. We will just be given a spirit body that's incorruptible but not necessarily immortal. Immortality belongs to the overcomers/elect/saved.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

 

[WPM]

I’m sorry but I don’t understand your question. There are many folks who have never been taught the Word of God. In the Millennium, they will be taught. They will be in their mortal bodies at this time.

OK, there are two types of people in the world – saved and lost. Do you agree?

 

[honeycomb]

OK, there are two types of people in the world – saved and lost. Do you agree?

Right! I agree!

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

Why do you avoid specifically addressing my points and answering my questions?

Because you said this after I gave scriptural proof …”Impossible! There is no way in the world that any mortals could survive this:”

Why should I quote the words of God to you if you believe the fulfillment of His words are impossible?

What you're saying contradicts what Jesus said. Please address this.

Only in your mind.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

How do you interpret the above passage? Please answer this question.

This is speaking of both resurrections, notice the word ALL that are in their graves.

Do you believe the sheep/saints inherit the kingdom of God at that point (when Christ comes again)? Surely, "the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" that they inherit at that time is the kingdom of God, right? Please answer this question.

They inherit ALL things, including this earth.
Revelation 21:7
He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

1 Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

… note: Not all men's bodies are made up of flesh and blood because…

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

Terrestrial
G1919
??????????
epigeios
ep-ig'-i-os
From G1909 and G1093; worldly (physically or morally): - earthly, in earth, terrestrial.

Celestial
G2032
????????????
epouranios
ep-oo-ran'-ee-os
From G1909 and G3772; above the sky: - celestial, (in) heaven (-ly), high.

41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

We are all given spiritual bodies when our flesh (natural) body dies, both the saved and the unsaved.

Wrong. That is not at all what Paul said. Remember, John was given visions of heaven and he said he saw the souls of those who were physically dead (Rev 6:9-11, Rev 20:4). He did not say he saw spiritual bodies. A natural body is mortal, but a spiritual body is immortal.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

If we are still alive in our flesh bodies at Christ's return, we will also be changed into our spiritual bodies.

Yes, and they will be immortal, right?

Remember, we are talking about bodies here, not souls.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

That is not to say we will have become immortal. We will just be given a spirit body that's incorruptible but not necessarily immortal. Immortality belongs to the overcomers/elect/saved.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Did you miss the part there that says "this mortal must put on immortality". Paul was not saying that this corruptible puts on incorruption at a different time than this mortal puts on immortality. That's ludicrous. When the last trumpet sounds, our natural, corruptible, mortal body will be changed into a spiritual, incorruptible, immortal body.

An incorruptible body is an immortal body! You can't have an incorruptible, mortal body. Where do you come up with this stuff?

Definition of the word incorruptible: not subject to death or decay; everlasting.

 

[WPM]

This is speaking of both resurrections, notice the word ALL that are in their graves.

Really? So where is a 1000 years mentioned there?

 

[honeycomb]

Yes, and they will be immortal, right?

Wrong.

 

[WPM]

They inherit ALL things, including this earth.
Revelation 21:7
He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Jesus says in Matthew 25:31-34, 41, 46, saying, “When the son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: and before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world … then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels … and these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”

• This is referring to the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.
• Christ is coming in final and majestic glory to execute judgment.
• The Lord only encounters two types of people when He returns.
• These are both judged at His appearing.
• One group is portrayed as righteous and is the subject of blessing and reward.
• The other group is portrayed as wicked and is the subject of God’s wrath and punished.
• They are before the exact same throne at the exact same time.
• There is no gap of time in-between the judgment of the righteous and the judgment of the wicked.
• The good receive eternal life.
• The bad obtain eternal punishment.
• There is absolutely no mention of, or allowance made for, a third group.