What did Jesus die to save us from?

[St. SteVen]

If I had a NDE, it could go either way. Mine was somewhat like yours, with a marked difference.

As an 18 year old, I accidentally took a quadruple dose of LSD. Followed by three 16 oz cans of malt liquor.

I thought I died. I was sitting crossed legged in the middle of the living room floor playing an acoustic guitar when things went sideways for me.

In my hallucinations, the room came apart. Everything was flying toward me. Then I heard the sound of bells. They were swirling around me in a circular motion. Only a few at first, but then they multiplied until they filled my visual space. Years later I read about the tunnel in many NDE experiences.

I felt as though I was being beat into the carpet by a drug overdose. I accepted that this was the end of my life. I laid back and expected to die. Eventually everything went black.

When I awoke, I was laying on my back with eyes wide open staring at the ceiling. I burst into tears. I was alive even though I thought I had died.

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[theJW]

As an 18 year old, I accidentally took a quadruple dose of LSD. Followed by three 16 oz cans of malt liquor.

I thought I died. I was sitting crossed legged in the middle of the living room floor playing an acoustic guitar when things went sideways for me.

In my hallucinations, the room came apart. Everything was flying toward me. Then I heard the sound of bells. They were swirling around me in a circular motion. Only a few at first, but then they multiplied until they filled my visual space. Years later I read about the tunnel in many NDE experiences.

I felt as though I was being beat into the carpet by a drug overdose. I accepted that this was the end of my life. I laid back and expected to die. Eventually everything went black.

When I awoke, I was laying on my back with eyes wide open staring at the ceiling. I burst into tears. I was alive even though I thought I had died.

[

WWWWWOOOOOOOOWWWWWW!
That trumps me getting shot at 16.....

 

[theJW]

Glad you recovered!

 

[St. SteVen]

WWWWWOOOOOOOOWWWWWW!
That trumps me getting shot at 16.....

Well... that sounds pretty serious to me.

Glad you recovered!

The jury is still out on that one. - LOL

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[PS95]

I was raised evangelical, but find myself questioning much of what we were taught in church.
This gets me in trouble with those, like me, who were raised to NEVER question the answers the church fed us.
Questions, it seems are for unbelievers. A healthy skepticism is viewed as agnostic, or unbelief.
And unbelief, seen as a loss of salvation. (sigh)

Therefore, the question in this topic title seems pivotal. What did Jesus die to save us from?

If the correct answer is, "Jesus died to save us from the wrath of God.", then essentially...
Jesus died to save us from God. Could anything be more pointless than that?

Just to be clear, I understand that Jesus paid the death penalty for our sin.
And that this paves the way for a restored relationship with God.
Which seems to be the plan. As opposed to the common belief.
Which claims that God's plan is to incinerate the vast majority of humankind. Or worse.

What did Jesus die to save us from?

Just look to the scriptures for your answer-
Romans 5:9
Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

1 Thessalonians 1:10
and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

 

[St. SteVen]

Just look to the scriptures for your answer-
Romans 5:9
Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

1 Thessalonians 1:10
and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.

1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

So, what other conclusion can you come to other than Jesus died to save us from God? (his wrath)
Is that God's plan for humankind? Seems like a such a disappointment, or worse. (extortion) Believe or burn.
What's wrong with this picture?

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[Carl Emerson]

So, what other conclusion can you come to other than Jesus died to save us from God? (his wrath)
Is that God's plan for humankind? Seems like a such a disappointment, or worse. (extortion) Believe or burn.
What's wrong with this picture?

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2 Pet 2:6
He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example of what is coming for the ungodly;


Rom 11
33 Oh, the depth of the riches, both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34 For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor?


Mmmm... Who indeed ???

 

[St. SteVen]

Rom 11
33 Oh, the depth of the riches, both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34 For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor?


Mmmm... Who indeed ???

You are deeming God to be a merciless tyrant. Are you okay with that? I'm not. How can a righteous judge be MORE corrupt than anyone he will judge?

And certainly I am no "counselor". (whatever that means) I am a spectator. Like the little boy in the story of The Emperor's New Clothes.



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[St. SteVen]

2 Pet 2:6
He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example of what is coming for the ungodly;

Bible vs. Bible. (who will win?)

Ezekiel 16:53 NIV
‘However, I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria
and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them,

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[Carl Emerson]

You are deeming God to be a merciless tyrant.

They are your words not mine...

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
You are deeming God to be a merciless tyrant.

They are your words not mine...

I should clarify. Thanks.

In my view, the standard position of the church unintentionally concludes that God is a merciless tyrant, though they won't own that view. (as you have demonstrated)

So, I agree/understand that you are not calling God a merciless tyrant, even though that conclusion is obvious to me. (a state of denial on the part of the church)

Rom 11
33 Oh, the depth of the riches, both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34 For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor?

Consider this, Since (according to Rom. 11:33) God's ways are unfathomable, His judgments are unsearchable, and His mind cannot be known... How is it that you can reject my view while clinging to your own? What makes one view superior to another? If no one can know, then certainly neither of us can know. We can each be as certain as we wish, but who is right? You cannot, in my opinion, reject my view by quoting Rom. 11:33.

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[Carl Emerson]

St. SteVen said:
You are deeming God to be a merciless tyrant.

I should clarify. Thanks.

In my view, the standard position of the church unintentionally concludes that God is a merciless tyrant, though they won't own that view. (as you have demonstrated)

So, I agree/understand that you are not calling God a merciless tyrant, even though that conclusion is obvious to me. (a state of denial on the part of the church)


Consider this, Since (according to Rom. 11:33) God's ways are unfathomable, His judgments are unsearchable, and His mind cannot be known... How is it that you can reject my view while clinging to your own? What makes one view superior to another? If no one can know, then certainly neither of us can know. We can each be as certain as we wish, but who is right? You cannot, in my opinion, reject my view by quoting Rom. 11:33.

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The answer is simple.

Consider the Fear of God that fell on the Church at its inception.

This was a Holy Fear.

I have encountered this personally and it was life changing.

It is a pure fear, a righteous fear, yet a terrible fear.

The Church at it's birth saw individuals struck down in His Holy Presence.

When they carried the Ark the same thing happened.

Isaiah encountered it.

John spoke of it in Revelation.

When He gave me a second chance in life it came with a condition - stay on the rails - and I knew you don't mess with God.

Somehow the Church has largely lost this important aspect of our Father.

Romans 11:22
See then the kindness and severity of God: to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; for otherwise you too will be cut off.

 

[St. SteVen]

The answer is simple.

Great post, thanks.
To me, an answer isn't simple if it only leads to more questions.
I think the institutional church has tried to make these things simple. (no questions allowed)

No questions > Believer = heaven
Questions > Unbeliever = hell

Consider the Fear of God that fell on the Church at its inception.

This was a Holy Fear.

A reference to Ananias and his wife Sapphira? Struck dead over offering dishonesty. Nothing tyrannical about that, right?

It is a pure fear, a righteous fear, yet a terrible fear.

The Church at it's birth saw individuals struck down in His Holy Presence.

Ananias and his wife Sapphira again? The story of a God of love that we can trust?

When they carried the Ark the same thing happened.

Another good example. A well-intentioned act met with ferocious consequences.
A pole-bearer reached to steady an ark at risk of falling over. Consequence? Immediate death.
No time to repent. Does that mean eternal torment too?

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[Carl Emerson]

There is no gaging here...

I can do no more than testify to a Holy and Loving Father and present what we read in the Scripture.

For whatever reason you seem to be walking on another road.

I have a life full of testimonies that align with the biblical record and a deep thankfulness regarding my exciting life.

This I share with others for their encouragement.

For example yesterday my lower back was so bad I could hardly walk at all.

After prayer today and no medication I am totally healed. He blows me away, I walk in His praise.

I have no reason to have issues with the Character of God - without Him I would likely have died more than once.

He has given me more than I could ask or think - not without suffering, crisis and hardship, but hey, the blessing I walk in is immeasurable.

I once prayed for a lady suffering terribly in a very abusive relationship. The guy died within 14 days.

As Francis Schaeffer wrote - He is there and He is not silent.

I have never ceased to weigh what comes over the pulpit, there is bondage in taking what anyone says as God's Word without question.

We work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.

I am blown away by His goodness.

 

[St. SteVen]

This topic came to mind.

The Bliss of Religious Homeostasis - Don't Rock the Boat

Was planning to put this in the Christian Theology section, but wanted to put this in front of a different audience. I haven't posted in this area for a while. In a conversation this morning I was trying to explain a concept when the descriptor "homeostasis" came to mind. There is a...

www.christianityboard.com

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[St. SteVen]

For example yesterday my lower back was so bad I could hardly walk at all.

After prayer today and no medication I am totally healed. He blows me away, I walk in His praise.

That's great.
But what about all the times God didn't heal you?

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[PGS11]

Christianity is about the fall of mankind it is why Jesus came and why he died for our sins.You can't have Jesus with out the fall of mankind or his sacrifice will make no sense.All of humanity was condemned in the fall.In revelations is says all of heaven was looking down on mankind with utter sadness because of the fall.In the next scene here comes the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world and all of heaven is in Joy.Its what its all about like it or not.

 

[St. SteVen]

Christianity is about the fall of mankind it is why Jesus came and why he died for our sins.You can't have Jesus with out the fall of mankind or his sacrifice will make no sense.All of humanity was condemned in the fall.In revelations is says all of heaven was looking down on mankind with utter sadness because of the fall.In the next scene here comes the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world and all of heaven is in Joy.Its what its all about like it or not.

Good.
How would you answer the topic title question then?

What did Jesus die to save us from?

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[PGS11]

I don't see what so difficult to understand the fallen angels plan was to condemn mankind to hell which Satan did in the fall.Their goal is no humans in heaven.There is a huge spiritual battle going on that people don't acknowledge and its for souls.Satan wants all soul in hell with him which he did accomplish and Jesus came to restore humanity back to heaven in the sacrifice he made saving us from death and hell.Death is hell which we were all condemned to in the fall for any sin committed. There are no sinless human's God has taken very few straight to heaven.Enoch was one that was taken directly to heaven.

 

[PGS11]

The big picture is hard to take but its what the bible says you have to see the big picture in order to understand and yes its pretty scary.Is it too hard for the modern world to accept?I think many will have a hard time with it in this day and age.