The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[CadyandZoe]

What an utter waste of time it is to talk to you. You are completely lacking in spiritual discernment and no one should listen to you. I'm done reading your garbage.

Nevermind

 

[rebuilder 454]

Good Morning,
If you can make it up here, i plan on ESCAPING to Salmon fishing at Pulaski, NY Lake Ontario.

The LORD promised that there will be His Saints on earth during and AFTER the Great Tribulation = Matt ch24 & 1 Thess 4:13-18


“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Rev 14 has a gathering BEFORE where you place the rapture.
So, in your DOCTRINE you have the dead in christ rising AFTER the living of 1 thesalonians 4
IOW your doctrine according to God's Holy Word , is litterally impossible.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Jesus told a fable based on Hebrew mythology. The Hebrews believed in a temporary place where the dead go, they called "Sheol." This temporary place had two compartments: one for the righteous dead and another for the unrighteous dead. The place reserved for the righteous dead was called "Abraham's bosom."

This is not taught in the Bible. But it is a cultural narrative familiar to his hearers, which is why he is able to employ it for his purposes. The actual place of judgment is the Lake of Fire. Some people are thrown into the lake of fire after the White Throne judgment. THAT is the true and real "hell."

It is taught in the Bible.
It is solid doctrine.
What you are doing is called "condemnation prior to investigation"

 

[rebuilder 454]

Nevermind

Might be the wisest move. He is just plain too nasty to converse with.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The souls of the dead in Christ are not in heaven. A soul can not exist without a body.

Revelation 6:9-11 is symbolic not literal.

Those who are dead in Christ will rise at the trumpet and the call of the archangel.

The dead in Christ rise BEFORE the 2 gatherings of Rev 14. ( 1 thes 4 is turned into a lie with the postribber doctrine)
Rev 14 destroys every position except the pretrib rapture doctrine

 

[WPM]

You can't have it both ways. The great tribulation of those days is over at the 6th seal and then the wrath of God begins. They are not the same and they do not happen in the same timeframe.........hence they are not a recap.

There are 2 great tribs in Scripture. There is that which Israel went through in AD70 when God punished them for their rebellion. There is that which the Church has endured for 2000 years as Satan tries to thwart the Gospel advance.

 

[CadyandZoe]

It is taught in the Bible.
It is solid doctrine.
What you are doing is called "condemnation prior to investigation"

Where do you read that Sheol is a place where the dead have conscious awareness?

 

[CadyandZoe]

The dead in Christ rise BEFORE the 2 gatherings of Rev 14. ( 1 thes 4 is turned into a lie with the postribber doctrine)
Rev 14 destroys every position except the pretrib rapture doctrine

I believe that the first harvest of Rev. 14 is the rapture as recorded in 1Thessalonians 4

 

[WPM]

The 6th seal occurs immediately after the tribulation of those days. It is the coming of Jesus for the gathering from heaven and earth.
The 7th seal is the day of the Lord and the coming of Jesus with the armies of Heaven is for Armageddon. Two completely separate comings of the Lord.

It is impossible to engage with you (and other Pretribbers) because you refuse to address the rebuttals of others that challenge your paradigm. Your short evasive flyby soundbites do not cut it. I refer you back to my detailed avoided post that negates Pretrib.

Compare the color-coding.

Revelation 6 is just one of several depictions of the glorious second coming from various angles with similar detail. This appearance will be final and climactic. It will see the wholesale destruction of all the wicked. Compare the description in Revelation 6:15-17 to that of Revelation 19:18-21 and the objective Bible student must surely acknowledge that this is depicting the same event.

Revelation 6:15-17: “And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”

No one survives here!

After describing the one-and-only future final coming of Christ at the sixth seal in Revelation 6:12-17, in which the natural realm is changed, the writer talks about the sudden destruction that envelops the wicked. This passage finishes with a rhetorical question: “who shall be able to stand?” The answer is plain and obvious: no one shall stand! This is total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors! Those left behind become the unfortunate recipients of the destructive wrath of God. This is the end. The Holy Spirit describes those left behind in such a comprehensive way that it is clear none escape.

The same comprehensive climactic destructive detail outlined in Revelation 6:7-9 and the same foolish rebellious characters are found in Revelation 19:11-21 as both describe the one final future coming of Christ.

Revelation 19:11-21 outlines: “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant [Gr. loipoy or remaining ones or those left behind] were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

Please see that the wicked are destroyed by the sword of His voice. This is complete wholesale total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!

This passage powerfully and solemnly reveals the full extent of the devastation that is to be focused upon the wicked on the day of God’s wrath. In perfect keeping with the rest of Scripture, this narrative graphically shows us that the destruction that occurs will be immediate, absolute and total and that, at this stage – after “the marriage of the Lamb” (Rev 19:7) – everyone left behind will be completely consumed; the birds of heaven filling themselves with “the flesh of all men.” Significantly, the suffix “both free and bond, both small and great” is added in order to fully impress the enormity and all-inclusive nature of this feast.

 

[David in NJ]

Rev 14 has a gathering BEFORE where you place the rapture.
So, in your DOCTRINE you have the dead in christ rising AFTER the living of 1 thesalonians 4
IOW your doctrine according to God's Holy Word , is litterally impossible.

Good Morning,

What is the specific gathering verses(s) in Rev BEFORE ch14.

BOTH the Resurrection AND the Rapture take place at His Second Coming = 1 Thess 4:13-18

You coming up for Salmon fishing in a few weeks?

 

[rebuilder 454]

I believe that the first harvest of Rev. 14 is the rapture as recorded in 1Thessalonians 4

Rev14 is the gathering of the Jews. Vividly portrayed.
144k firstfruits are in heaven first in ch 14
Main harvest always follows firstfruits

Vs 14 is the main harvest Jews.
Note that Jesus is not on any horse in Rev 14:14 .
Also, in rev 14:14 gathering, he is not the groom gathering the bride of Matt 25 .
I have never seen the bride groom dynamic discussed amongst postribbers.
The groom is coming for his bride.
This is the greatest event since the resurrection.
The groom gathering the bride, and postribbers are oblivious.

This is the heart of heaven. The next greatest event.....and postribs bypass it entirely.
The rapture of the bride by the groom is Both the heart of heaven, and the heart of postribber error.

The Bible ends with the bride, and Heaven ,calling out to Jesus.
Come Lord Jesus!
. Maranatha!
come Lord Jesus!
. Interesting how the Bible ends on that note ,whereas post tribbers are 100% focused on the Antichrist coming on a white horse.
And they love to say that they endure the great tribulation.
When in fact, all their hope is set on an impossibility, because it says that AC kills every man woman and child whether Bond or free that refuses the mark.
every man woman and child receive the mark, or their heads are cut off.
No such thing as any believer going through the trib.

So there you have it two impossibilities, of any hope ,of any post tribulation rapture!

 

[WPM]

post tribbers are 100% focused on the Antichrist coming on a white horse.

This is the only way you can question Posttrib - with misrepresentations. The reality is: our focus is Christ. We are looking for Him. It matters little with who or what antichrist is. Whatever trials we have to face, God is with us.

 

[WPM]

Rev14 is the gathering of the Jews. Vividly portrayed.
144k firstfruits are in heaven first in ch 14
Main harvest always follows firstfruits

Vs 14 is the main harvest Jews.
Note that Jesus is not on any horse in Rev 14:14 .
Also, in rev 14:14 gathering, he is not the groom gathering the bride of Matt 25 .
I have never seen the bride groom dynamic discussed amongst postribbers.
The groom is coming for his bride.
This is the greatest event since the resurrection.
The groom gathering the bride, and postribbers are oblivious.

This is the heart of heaven. The next greatest event.....and postribs bypass it entirely.
The rapture of the bride by the groom is Both the heart of heaven, and the heart of postribber error.

The Bible ends with the bride, and Heaven ,calling out to Jesus.
Come Lord Jesus!
. Maranatha!
come Lord Jesus!
. Interesting how the Bible ends on that note ,whereas post tribbers are 100% focused on the Antichrist coming on a white horse.
And they love to say that they endure the great tribulation.
When in fact, all their hope is set on an impossibility, because it says that AC kills every man woman and child whether Bond or free that refuses the mark.
every man woman and child receive the mark, or their heads are cut off.
No such thing as any believer going through the trib.

So there you have it two impossibilities, of any hope ,of any post tribulation rapture!

The Bible teaches: when Jesus comes that is the end!

· There is nowhere in Scripture that talk about "resurrection days" (plural).
· There is nowhere in Scripture that talk about "judgement days" (plural).

Acts 17:30-31 reinforces my supposition: “And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.”

Peter testifies in 1 Peter 4:1-5 that there are two distinct types of people, (1) the righteous; whom Christ “suffered for” and who “no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God” and (2) the wicked who “think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you.” All of whom, Peter says, “shall give account to him (Christ) that is ready to judge the quick (or the living) and the dead” (1 Peter 4:5).

This phrase the “quick and the dead” or the ‘living and the dead’, which comes up a few times in the New Testament, is so totally all-inclusive and unequivocal that one can’t imagine the Holy Spirit employing a more explicit expression to describe the full amount of all mankind. This plain saying unquestionably encompasses the complete amount of Adam’s race – of all time. Every single person conceived from Adam must undoubtedly fall into one category or the other.

Peter testifies in Acts 10:42 to the fact that everyone will stand before the great Judge – Christ – and that “he (Christ) commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.”

Every man woman and child will therefore stand before the great Judge of all judges. Notwithstanding, whilst, most Bible students accept this fact, the Premillennialist wrongly tries to argue that the wicked and the righteous will stand before God on two distinct Judgment Days, at two distinct times, separated by over a thousand years, despite there being not one verse in Scripture to support such a notion. This includes their beloved Revelation 20 that only records one judgment of “the dead” that occurs immediately after Gog and Magog comes against the saints and, like elsewhere in Scripture, coincides with the destruction of the wicked and this world and the glorious Second Advent.

2 Timothy 4:1-8 informs us when this glorious (all-inclusive) number will actually stand to account before the throne of God, saying, “I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom … there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.”

Adam’s race – in total – are therefore judged “at his (Christ’s) ‘epifaneian’ (or) appearing and his kingdom.” This is an all-inclusive general judgment. The subjects involved and the occasion referred to could not be clearer.

Jesus said, in the parable of the wheat and tares, in Matthew 13:24-30, “The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field … Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, (1) Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but (2) gather the wheat into my barn.”

Verses 39-43 continues, “the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. (1) As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (2) Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.”

Here, “the end of the world” is expressly linked to the gathering together of the saints by the angels and the complete destruction of the wicked. It is therefore the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ when Christ “shall send forth his angels” to reap that one final all-consummating harvest.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Any dispassionate observer here can easily see who makes clear and Biblically accurate posts and who uses denigration and ridicule to push their theories.

I agree. You fall in to the latter group you described. It looks like you support the guy who denies the deity of Christ then? Do you deny His deity, also?

AMill and a rapture to heaven, are both false beliefs from the father of lies.

LOL at your holier than thou act which you follow up with this nonsense associating Amil with Satan. How nice. You are completely incapable of refuting Amil with your weak and incoherent arguments.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This is the only way you can question Posttrib - with misrepresentations. The reality is: our focus is Christ. We are looking for Him. It matters little with who or what antichrist is. Whatever trials we have to face, God is with us.

Amen. In Amil post-trib in particular we put our focus on Christ more than any other end times belief system. In our view, He is the King of kings and Lord of lords NOW and He reigns over all of heaven and earth right now. For someone to claim that our focus is on some imaginary Antichrist is a big lie.

 

[The Light]

There are 2 great tribs in Scripture. There is that which Israel went through in AD70 when God punished them for their rebellion. There is that which the Church has endured for 2000 years as Satan tries to thwart the Gospel advance.

Well, neither of those is the great tribulation and neither of those are the tribulation of those days. So you can have all the tribulation you want, but that is not the time period Jesus talks about.

 

[WPM]

Well, neither of those is the great tribulation and neither of those are the tribulation of those days. So you can have all the tribulation you want, but that is not the time period Jesus talks about.

What? Because you say so?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Rev14 is the gathering of the Jews. Vividly portrayed.
144k firstfruits are in heaven first in ch 14

Why do you say they are in heaven? They are standing on Mt. Zion, which is physically located in Jerusalem.

Vs 14 is the main harvest Jews.

I wonder if this harvest is the rapture of the church?

Note that Jesus is not on any horse in Rev 14:14 .

He is coming on a cloud right?

Also, in rev 14:14 gathering, he is not the groom gathering the bride of Matt 25 .

Isn't the bride standing with Jesus on Mt. Zion?

I have never seen the bride groom dynamic discussed amongst postribbers.
The groom is coming for his bride.
This is the greatest event since the resurrection.
The groom gathering the bride, and postribbers are oblivious.

I don't know about this.

This is the heart of heaven. The next greatest event.....and postribs bypass it entirely.

Why is that?

The rapture of the bride by the groom is Both the heart of heaven, and the heart of postribber error.

hmm.

And they love to say that they endure the great tribulation.

Doesn't everyone?

When in fact, all their hope is set on an impossibility, because it says that AC kills every man woman and child whether Bond or free that refuses the mark.
every man woman and child receive the mark, or their heads are cut off.
No such thing as any believer going through the trib.

What if chapter 13 is local to Jerusalem and not worldwide?

I'm not debating, just asking questions. :)

 

[The Light]

What? Because you say so?

Because Jesus said.

 

[WPM]

Because Jesus said.

Compare the color-coding.

Revelation 6 is just one of several depictions of the glorious second coming from various angles with similar detail. This appearance will be final and climactic. It will see the wholesale destruction of all the wicked. Compare the description in Revelation 6:15-17 to that of Revelation 19:18-21 and the objective Bible student must surely acknowledge that this is depicting the same event.

Revelation 6:15-17: “And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”

No one survives here!

After describing the one-and-only future final coming of Christ at the sixth seal in Revelation 6:12-17, in which the natural realm is changed, the writer talks about the sudden destruction that envelops the wicked. This passage finishes with a rhetorical question: “who shall be able to stand?” The answer is plain and obvious: no one shall stand! This is total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors! Those left behind become the unfortunate recipients of the destructive wrath of God. This is the end. The Holy Spirit describes those left behind in such a comprehensive way that it is clear none escape.

The same comprehensive climactic destructive detail outlined in Revelation 6:7-9 and the same foolish rebellious characters are found in Revelation 19:11-21 as both describe the one final future coming of Christ.

Revelation 19:11-21 outlines: “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant [Gr. loipoy or remaining ones or those left behind] were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

Please see that the wicked are destroyed by the sword of His voice. This is complete wholesale total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!

This passage powerfully and solemnly reveals the full extent of the devastation that is to be focused upon the wicked on the day of God’s wrath. In perfect keeping with the rest of Scripture, this narrative graphically shows us that the destruction that occurs will be immediate, absolute and total and that, at this stage – after “the marriage of the Lamb” (Rev 19:7) – everyone left behind will be completely consumed; the birds of heaven filling themselves with “the flesh of all men.” Significantly, the suffix “both free and bond, both small and great” is added in order to fully impress the enormity and all-inclusive nature of this feast.