The Way/Theosis/entire sanctification.

[marks]

Then there is a period of growth and learning to walk in the Spirit with this pure heart and to be tempted like Jesus to gain mastery over the body that is the natural desires and needs which are not sinful but if we do not gain mastery they could lead us into temptation. So in a sense there is a process but there must be definite steps on the way.

For me there were no steps, no process, just a full and finished seeming work. As you said somewhere else . . . effortless. No thought towards sin or really anything, one of the noticeable things was a lack of self-consciousness. Just what I needed to eat and be presentable and so forth, but only as a means to an end, that of serving.

I still question how your body desire could lead you into sinning when your heart is pure, and there is simply no interest or desire? And again harkening back to my experience, not a single thought towards any lusts of the flesh.

Much love!

 

[marks]

1 Corinthians 4:3-5 KJV
3) But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
4) For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
5) Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

I question whether anyone is qualified to say of themselves or anyone else that they have completely stopped sinning. Paul say plainly that even though his conscience is clear, that doesn't mean he is necessarily in the right, he's not his own judge on that, Jesus is. Jesus knows what's really in the heart. We don't always understand ourselves. So this isn't be a "thing". We just leave it to the Lord Jesus. And follow in whatever light we have received.

Much love!

 

[amigo de christo]

If this is the correct application of that passage in Hebrews, then is it not in fact possible. I don't think that's the correct application, but if it is, that's what it says, that it's not possible.

Much love!

Its not . he has misunderstood it .
This was speaking about those who abandon and died in the state of unbelief .
Its not speaking of those who may have errered , because if so why would paul and others have so oftened said
HE who sins RESTORE etc .
Some do fall , those who do can be corrected , if they continue in unbelief , following another jesus
and die in that state , I can promise there will be NO SACRFICE for their sins .
Those within the church who do sin , MUST be corrected , and can be restored when led to repentance .
ITS THOSE WHO REFUSE repentance that are the ones in dire and deadly and grave danger
LEST THEY DO repent .
JESUS will never be the minsitir of sin and unbelief .
SO i suggest none of us follows a love that accepts sin and unbelief .
Because if we accept this other relgions knowing GOD stuff
WE REJECT JESUS THE CHRIST , EVEN IF we try and lip his name .
ITS ANOTHER GOSPEL mark . AND ITS A FALSE ONE .
And many have been seduced into its lie .
Those who enter into it and never return , WERE NEVER OF US .
But it is our duty to warn and to rebuke and to remind the church TO NOT HAVE ANY FELLOWSHIP with this false love gospel .
ITS ANTI CHRIST mark . I mean it . ITS ANTI CHRIST .
i have well heard of it and examined it . ITS OF ANTI CHRIST . IT WILL DENY one has to BELIEVE JESUS IS THE CHRIST .
that my friend , IS ANTI CHRIST . Unless we want to call both CHRIST and john a liar .
Now i am very worn out with watching folks trying to justify other religoins .
and even certain sins . BOTH OF WHICH DENY JESUS .
Can i give an example of a modern day anti christ .
Ophra whimphrey . very crafity that one is . SHE claims to beleive JESUS is the CHRIST
but then hollers out an anti christ message that its not necessary for you to have to BELIEVE ON HIM as the CHRIST .
THAT IS ANTI CHRIST mark . these people have come within christendom to seduce the many . I WILL NOT
let them have any rest on my watch . BOTH THEY and their doctrine , WILL BE EXPOSED and the TRUE GOSPEL will be preached .

 

[marks]

Sounds like someone taking credit for their own salvation

It may sound like that, but I don't believe that's at the heart of this teaching. My thinking is that some simply believe this is the path, and these are the means, by which we can know God.

I believe that God convicts our hearts of sin by His Spirit, and we respond, either believing and being justified, nor choosing to continue as we are, without any repentance. She is saying that God uses these experiences of learning of Him, and trying to serve Him, failing, despairing, crying out, that this is a deeper and more extensive process of repentance and believing, but to reach the same end, rebirth.

I believe that having been reborn, we go on to maturity, becoming more consistent in walking in the Spirit, gaining more and more victory over sin. She is saying that being reborn, we are in the Spirit, and have that victory over sin.

The essential difference is when these things happen. To be sure, there are a number of implications to these things, but I wouldn't be so harsh myself.

Much love!

 

[amigo de christo]

For me there were no steps, no process, just a full and finished seeming work. As you said somewhere else . . . effortless. No thought towards sin or really anything, one of the noticeable things was a lack of self-consciousness. Just what I needed to eat and be presentable and so forth, but only as a means to an end, that of serving.

I still question how your body desire could lead you into sinning when your heart is pure, and there is simply no interest or desire? And again harkening back to my experience, not a single thought towards any lusts of the flesh.

Much love!

By the SPIRIT there is no thought of sin , lusts and etc
But we still dwell in bodies of flesh . IN that body there will be those desires .
They come of the flesh mark . But what mostt no longer teach or even know or have even experienced is
THE TRUE POWER of THE SPIRIT OF GOD . that we do have real spiritual weapons .
That we do NOT have TO BE a slave to evil thoughts which will pop into our mind .
IF anyone has the HOLY SPIRIT , i can attest for a fact that when a contrary lustful thought
do enter into the mind , THE ALARM BELLS OF THE SPIRIT will KICK INTO QUICK MOTION
as to set that mind FROM OFF THEM THOUGHTS .
The question is which one we gonna heed , THE SPIRIT or the flesh . MY ADVICE
be not a servant to the flesh .
CRUCIFY that nasty thing . WE do have the power to do so mark . Never let a pastor say otherwise .
The choice is ours . CHOOSE YE THIS DAY TO HEED THE SPIRIT
if so be one has the SPIRIT . IF not , that is a bunk lip only conversion . not saying you of course , but just saying it in general

 

[marks]

ITS THOSE WHO REFUSE repentance that are the ones in dire and deadly and grave danger

God has given a very strong promise to His children. He WILL chasten them, and His chastening WILL BE effective, to restore them to works of righteousness. And His chastening can be as brutal as necessary. Believe me, I know!!

Much love!

 

[marks]

The Heart and the Philippians

The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked and who can know it? Jer 17:9

Just to say . . . I'm gone for the weekend, and hope to return to this on Monday. Meanwhile I've printed out this and the next post to read at home.

And also to say, I appreciate all of your time and patience and effort you are extending. This is a very good discussion for me.

Much love!

 

[marks]

You are seeing through eyes of human reasoning otherwise known as the flesh, that will do anything to stay alive and not go to the cross, regarding when spiritual rebirth takes place. You are the same as the disciples before Pentecost, only knowing the law.

Paul warned of such as you who would lead many astray because of a show of knowledge, fleshy knowledge that is, not spiritual maturity. Most bible scholars are unsaved. May God have mercy.

You'll have to put me in that same group then. Because I believe the same as he does. I've giving careful consideration to the things you are saying, but as you know I continue to see inconsistencies.

Much love!

 

[Hepzibah]

@marks Awake for a short time, but just wanted to tell you how much l appreciate this conversation too, because it is very good how you have been taking things apart and making me look again at how my beliefs developed and most importantly, am l right or wrong. I actually hope l am wrong.

Have a good weekend brother.

 

[GodsGrace]

Whose will?

I believe that in our rebirth we have become new people. This is the work of God in us: To will and to do what pleases Him. Isn't it your desire - you, not a fleshy desire, but your desire - to be conformed to Christ, to become fully like Him, heart and mind? It is mine!

IF we are His children, His promise is certain. He WILL chasten us. His chastening WILL BE effective. There is no wiggle room in this passage:

Hebrews 12:6-11 KJV
6) For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7) If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8) But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9) Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10) For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11) Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

The Lord chastens His children. His chastening is for our profit. It yields the peaceable fruits of righteousness to those exercised by it. Exercised here is Perfect Passive, it happens to us, with enduring effect.

Much love!

How do you give the OP a like and then carry on with this OSAS nonsense?

@Hebzibah brought up an interesting subject.

Is entire/complete sanctification possible in a person's lifetime?

And the topic becomes OSAS?

Not my OP, so I'll stop here.

 

[Hepzibah]

In my cPTSD, compulsion and obsession has been hard-wired into my brain, and my compulsions and obsessions are not good ones. This has been in many ways of life of horror within my mind. What I want to express is that this isn't just a matter of some unhealthy interests, some particularly alluring temptation, these are mindsets that were written into my brain as I was growing up.

It never goes away. It never lets up. It's the way my brain is. According to the flesh.

At last I can get back to this one. Sorry it took so long but it stayed with me. What you are describing, is neurological damage, but according to all of the studying I have done since Christmas with my brothers family and there abusive behaviour towards me shocked me into the reality that I grew up in a narcissistic family scapegoat system, is that it can be healed, and sometime very quickly.

I don't know why mine has all come out in such a late stage in my life. I had already been healing from marriage to a covert narc I had to flee for my life from (2nd abusive marriage), but there it is. I spent 20 years studying personality disorders to make sense of it.

Anyway for the last few months I have been watching youtube with some very good psychologists who trained me in some of the ways I can heal my brain injuries and it is working. I think I have mentioned it. I believe that he Lord has shown me how to heal this problems of cPTSD and also health problems with a Rife device (frequencies) for a time like this so I can show others the way. In my country medical services are fast disappearing.

Even when I was ES, this very deep damage remained unseen, like the last layer of an onion and it is all coming out especially the possible damage that was done to me when I was an infant in hospital with Pink Disease aka mercury poisoning.

How wonderful brother that the Lord gave you a taste of healing that is available for you.

Having known a time that God lifted all this away from me, and allowed me to live in peace and love and fruitfulness, then having known that time end, you can imagine how motivated I am to return to this state!

Yes indeed!

I always pause before saying, God said to me . . . but this is what I believe. That God explained to me about this. He can certainly remove all my difficulty, but He wants me to participate, because He wants me to share the victory. In some cases my participation seems small, just make the choice, and see as God's power makes it real. In other cases my participation seems more significant, as I have to keep making that choice, against all that is within and without screaming for me to give in.

He doesn't just want me to be free from these things, He wants me to understand how I'm being made free. He wants me to overcome by faith, in which is reward, rather then just be parked by Him in the right spot. As much as I think I'd love for that to happen, I realize that His argument is sound, and that in this He is not just arranging my temporal good, but is also seeking to add as much as possible to my eternal good.

I understand. I think that what I went through with this unhealed damage, has served me due to the level of suffering I went through, but think that now is the time for my healing which is happening from the advice of these psychologists and coaches who have been through it themselves, and found no help from the medical profession. And its going to get worse as more and more people are being traumatized in their childhoods.

So I am trusting and thanking God for my healing which is going on at quite a rapid rate, but doing the things needed for the neurological healing. So many things have changed in me, especially where disregulation is concerned as I learn to recognize it and stop it.

In the recovery period one can get stuck at times, but there is things we can do to get past that. But recovery needs hard work and not giving up.

So I am not discounting faith and God healing it. It's just the same as with physical illnesses and those which come from unhealthy eating. We will not mature if we keep asking Him to heal us and keep on eating in a way that our bodies were not meant for.

But of course, spiritual healing comes first and foremost. We need to be walking in the Light and freed from sin. But there is much we can do as we long for that.

Paul said something,

1 Corinthians 9:16-18 KJV
16) For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!
17) For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
18) What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.

God "tapped" Paul to preach the Gospel. God didn't allow Paul to participate in the preaching of the Gospel, God committed the preaching of the Gospel to Paul, and Paul received no reward for preaching the Gospel. So what did Paul do? He made sure that he paid for everything, for himself, for those with him, even though he didn't have to. That was the point. The preaching was laid on him, "Woe is unto me if I preach not the Gospel!" But the money was his choice, and for choosing, and making that happen, this is where Paul received his reward.

So as much as I'd love for God to just "tap" me again, and lift off this burden of heavily corrupted flesh, I see His wisdom, and His love for me, in not doing that. I think He knew I needed to see it to believe it could be, but now having seen it, He wants me to attain it by faith, by my choosing, and then walking in it by faith, and then I have eternal reward.

One of the key elements in all this for me is my certainty of God's love for me, which is a lens I look through.

All that being said . . . I believe that for myself, God wants me to "walk above it", so that I can have true growth and understanding, something I can share with others, and that will bring me eternal rewards.

Much love!

I think your time has come brother. Recovered cPTSD's are what the world needs now and how much more so if they are also ES'ed.

 

[Hepzibah]

I'm hoping to confirm some understandings of what you are saying here . . .

This would be a recognition of our desire to come to God, and choosing to learn about Jesus, and from Jesus, about Himself, though we are not spiritually changed at this time.

A spiritual change yes. An awakening to the truth of the gospel. We are now spiritual receptive to God. It caused a huge change for me after seeking.

We begin to be tested, though strickly only in our flesh, as we are not spiritually changed yet. Through this process, we begin to learn what it means to follow Jesus and walk in the Spirit, although we are not yet in the Spirit, not being spiritually changed. So our only option is to learn about walking in the Spirit, but not being changed spiritually, we cannot do this.

No we learn but we cannot do it. It is because we are trying to do it in the flesh. For the cPTSD'ed it is especially hard.

This process of discipleship brings us to the point of despair finding we cannot do what we need to do, and either throw ourselves down at God's feet for His mercy, in the hope of Theosis - should He find us ready - or else convince ourselves that "some sin is OK", thus searing our conscience.

Agreed.

But IF God grants us Theosis (which may or may not happen, it's up to Him), this is when we become born again, and filled with the Holy Spirit, and are the children of God.

Am I on track so far?

If we hunger and thirst for righteousness, then He has put that desire there and will fulfill it. Knock and the door will be opened He says, Seek and ye shall find.

Much love!

 

[Hepzibah]

For me there were no steps, no process, just a full and finished seeming work. As you said somewhere else . . . effortless. No thought towards sin or really anything, one of the noticeable things was a lack of self-consciousness. Just what I needed to eat and be presentable and so forth, but only as a means to an end, that of serving.

Agreed. It was so for me. I believe that He gives a taste of what we can be like when His power is there fully. I think that many think that they are *there*, they have reached the point of salvation that they read about and are taught mistakenly.

When the 'pricks' of the Spirit come, they subdue them and quench the Spirit.

I still question how your body desire could lead you into sinning when your heart is pure, and there is simply no interest or desire? And again harkening back to my experience, not a single thought towards any lusts of the flesh.

There is no desire for sin, but the temptation is there to 'lean on our own understanding' or to slip back to trusting in the flesh which will lead to sin if we don't quickly get back on track.

Much love!

 

[Hepzibah]

I'm having a difficulty understanding how this view fits with this passage:

Galatians 5:25 KJV
If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Could you explain to me what "living in the Spirit" means? And why are those who live in the Spirit admonished to also walk in the Spirit?

My guess is that you would say to "live in the Spirit" is to have Theosis, is that correct? And if that is so, wouldn't that mean these are already walking in the Spirit?

Much love!

I think that he means alive in the Spirit - Spirit baptized and in Theosis. If indeed they have the Spirit within, then they should be showing the fruit. If the fruit is not there then they have not been baptized. It is a test for them.

 

[Hepzibah]

Not really, he's comparing our current state of incomplete revelation and knowledge to when he was a child, acting and thinking like a child. Immature. And he's comparing putting away childish things in becoming a man to when the incomplete things will be done away when the full completion comes, when the perfect has come.

Remember . . . "perfect" here, from teleios, doesn't refer specifically to moral excellence. Were the context to specify that, it can mean that, but this context is of childhood and maturity.

Much love!

Be ye mature as your heavenly Father is mature?

 

[Hepzibah]

1 Corinthians 4:3-5 KJV
3) But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
4) For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
5) Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

I question whether anyone is qualified to say of themselves or anyone else that they have completely stopped sinning. Paul say plainly that even though his conscience is clear, that doesn't mean he is necessarily in the right, he's not his own judge on that, Jesus is. Jesus knows what's really in the heart. We don't always understand ourselves. So this isn't be a "thing". We just leave it to the Lord Jesus. And follow in whatever light we have received.

Much love!

Paul is talking about judging sin. He says that God judges sin through our consciences and is his judge. This has nothing to do with knowing if we are without sin. If our conscience is clear we have either seared it or we are blameless. We know by the intimacy we have with Christ.

 

[Marvelloustime]

Only those who have breathed their last and died faithiful in Christ have attained
that which long ago paul wrote of concerning what he looked foward to attain .
As paul long ago attained at his moment of death .
WE ourselves have not yet attained this , for we still have our walk before us and our goal
what do we aim for , what do we mark , JESUS THE CHRIST .
Does that make sense my friend .
Its true we are apprehended of Christ but our walk is not yet done . let every man be faithful unto death
But this generation is in for a suprise my friend .
Its something paul once looked forward to in his day and wrote about it .
THE KING IS COMING my friend , and there is a generation that shall not sleep but shall in an instant be changed .
THAT IS THIS GENERATION . as to the day and hour , YEAH i am no false prophet or man so
I aint even gonna try and say that day and hour . BUT the signs , oh the signs
are showing us its close . And i , for one , LOOK FORWARD TO BEING FOREVER WITH THE KING
who saved us .
Many have bled through all ages . So marvel not in this last hour upon earth
IF MANY more do bleed for JESUS .
And when i say bleed i mean they will be killed , persecuted , even called out as haters
of humanity , even called haters of God and love . For satan has decieved the many
and they now merge as one and will hold hands with rainbows and other religoins and chant GOD is love
come and merge with us . THIS LAMB will do no such thing or heed no such call ,
FOR their love is not of GOD , it is of the world and darkness and has honored false paths and sins . SOMETHING GOD WOULD NEVER DO .
The SPIRIT of phrophecy dont point to a broad path false road that accepts unbelif and sins
THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY TESTIEFS OF JESUS THE CHRIST . not of lies , BUT OF HE , HIS WORDS, HIS TEACHINGS .
Every WORD of GOD is to be loved and embraced , heeded and adorn with joy .
FOR EVERY WORD OF GOD is for our good and works good to the soul of the hearer and the doer .
But todays love , DONT SEEM TO LOVE TRUTH , and that is a real bad sign right there .
CHARITY REJOICES IN TRUTH . not in some broad path sin accepting lie .

 

[Marvelloustime]

Its not . he has misunderstood it .
This was speaking about those who abandon and died in the state of unbelief .
Its not speaking of those who may have errered , because if so why would paul and others have so oftened said
HE who sins RESTORE etc .
Some do fall , those who do can be corrected , if they continue in unbelief , following another jesus
and die in that state , I can promise there will be NO SACRFICE for their sins .
Those within the church who do sin , MUST be corrected , and can be restored when led to repentance .
ITS THOSE WHO REFUSE repentance that are the ones in dire and deadly and grave danger
LEST THEY DO repent .
JESUS will never be the minsitir of sin and unbelief .
SO i suggest none of us follows a love that accepts sin and unbelief .
Because if we accept this other relgions knowing GOD stuff
WE REJECT JESUS THE CHRIST , EVEN IF we try and lip his name .
ITS ANOTHER GOSPEL mark . AND ITS A FALSE ONE .
And many have been seduced into its lie .
Those who enter into it and never return , WERE NEVER OF US .
But it is our duty to warn and to rebuke and to remind the church TO NOT HAVE ANY FELLOWSHIP with this false love gospel .
ITS ANTI CHRIST mark . I mean it . ITS ANTI CHRIST .
i have well heard of it and examined it . ITS OF ANTI CHRIST . IT WILL DENY one has to BELIEVE JESUS IS THE CHRIST .
that my friend , IS ANTI CHRIST . Unless we want to call both CHRIST and john a liar .
Now i am very worn out with watching folks trying to justify other religoins .
and even certain sins . BOTH OF WHICH DENY JESUS .
Can i give an example of a modern day anti christ .
Ophra whimphrey . very crafity that one is . SHE claims to beleive JESUS is the CHRIST
but then hollers out an anti christ message that its not necessary for you to have to BELIEVE ON HIM as the CHRIST .
THAT IS ANTI CHRIST mark . these people have come within christendom to seduce the many . I WILL NOT
let them have any rest on my watch . BOTH THEY and their doctrine , WILL BE EXPOSED and the TRUE GOSPEL will be preached .

 

[amigo de christo]

How do you give the OP a like and then carry on with this OSAS nonsense?

@Hebzibah brought up an interesting subject.

Is entire/complete sanctification possible in a person's lifetime?

And the topic becomes OSAS?

Not my OP, so I'll stop here.

And therein lies the problem with those who often cling to osas .
The things needed for the church , those reminders about the need to continue to the end
they get removed .
Paul , who i know was saved and who i know trusted in JESUS the CHRIST
actually reminded THE church about the dire need to keep the faith to the end .
often reminders that were needful to the church to hear , get past over due to OSAS teachings .
Now i know anyone who does come out from amongst us was never truly of us .
Just like john , just like paul knew , just like they all knew .
And yet those sames ones by the SPIRIT gave warnings to the church about continuing to the end .
When we start omitting warnings and reminders that were meant for the good of the Church
WE WONT be working good to the church .
People quickly forget their is good reason why JESUS warned
and later why the apostels warned .
Every word works GOOD to the hearer and doer of such .
In other words GOD KNOWS HOW to keep one safe .
But omit them reminders and you get a lazy people prone to failure .
Many say and claim they believe IN JESUS the CHRIST
and yet sure dont seem to BELIEVE His words . they omit and change meanings to rather suit
something men taught them and not rather just HEED said warnings which are for their own good .
Does that make sense . WE should never overlook one warning . Rather we should heed them
The entire pattern Christ set and later the apostles set , IS FOR OUR OWN GOOD and SAFETY
that we do that pattern and do not try and change things to suit a teaching of men .
RATHER HEED those warnings and remember the promise , accept and embrace ALL of it .
IT works to the good of those who do so . But take note
it will lead to the destruction of those who try and alter those words to suit a teaching of men .
Its dangerous to do that . I wish everyone would just start over IN the bible
and just learn it for ourselves .

 

[Hepzibah]

Please start your own thread if you wish to discuss OSAS. This thread is about sanctification.