The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[Davy]

Davy, the chart of mine in your post is the anytime rapture view chart - not the pre-trib rapture view chart.

Below is the pre-trib rapture view chart. Pre-tribbers consider the entire 70th week as tribulation. Therefore, in their view, the rapture has to take place before the 70th week begins.

View attachment 49034

Either you are telling a lie on purpose, or your Biblical illiteracy is causing you to think a 'rapture' PRIOR to the coming of that "false messianic age" is not a pre-trib rapture theory, even though it is.

Therefore, I DO NOT BELIEVE WHAT YOU SAY, BUT INSTEAD SEE THAT YOU ARE HERE TO DECEIVE THE BRETHREN. NO MORE TO SAY TO YOU.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Davy, the chart of mine in your post is the anytime rapture view chart - not the pre-trib rapture view chart.

What is your understanding of what the tribulation entails? How long do you believe it will last? When do you believe the rapture will occur in relation to the tribulation?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I don't called the great tribulation as "the trib". I don't use the term "the trib" because it is confusing.

I believe the great tribulation will be 1335 days long. Beginning when the abomination of desolation statue image is setup on the temple mount. And ending when Jesus returns.

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pre-tribbers, mid-tribbers, post-tribbers refer to the 7 year 70th week as "the trib". But I don't because the 7 years is not all "tribulation". For much of the first half, the world will be saying "peace and safety".

You believe the rapture will occur before "the great tribulation" begins, right? If so, then you believe in a pre-great trib rapture.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You force your own teaching into the sacred text. You have to. After the text describes the approaching removal of the current corrupt created order (and the wicked), you insert your Pretrib list of events to the same text. This is adding unto Scripture, something strictly forbidden in the Bible.

You then usher Christ-rejecting Israel into some future imaginary tribulation period after the second coming that you will not tell us the duration of.

Well, guess what? There will be no corrupt earth to populate. It is all going up in a puff of smoke. This text totally forbids your doctrine.

Jesus warned in Luke 21:33-36: “Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares [Gr. aifnídios meaning suddenly). For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

The phrase "all these things" (that Pretribbers keep getting tripped up on every time this is discussed) is not everything the Left Behind novels have taught them (including some imaginary future 7-year trib), it is talking about the total destruction and removal of the wicked and current corrupted creation. Read what the text is actually saying.

Yes, exactly. Luke 21:33-36 lines up perfectly with 1 Thess 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 which, like Jesus, teach that heaven and earth will pass away when He comes and that no unbeliever will escape the "sudden destruction" by way of fire that will "come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth" on "that day" that Jesus comes unexpectedly like a thief in the night.

 

[Davy]

The peril that Trinitarians face is not to be underestimated. It's when some of them diminish the humanity of Jesus and inflate his supposed divinity. The Spirit of the antichrist, as John warns, is a spirit that denies the humanity of Jesus, suggesting that a man like Jesus couldn't be the Messiah. This dangerous spirit can seep into the hearts of Trinitarians who unintentionally disregard the humanity of Jesus. We must be vigilant and alert to avoid falling into this trap.

You actually went OPPOSITE of the meaning from John about Jesus Christ as GOD come in the flesh...

1 John 4:3
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
KJV


1 John 2:22-23
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
KJV

Jesus of Nazareth is the name for the flesh-born man, but the term "the Christ" is a Heavenly Office Title associated with The Godhead that includes The Father.

This is why we are told in Matthew 1:23 that one of Lord Jesus' Titles is "Emmanuel", from Isaiah 7:14, which means "God with us"...

Matt 1:21-23
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for He shall save His people from their sins.
22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
23 "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel", which being interpreted is, God with us.
KJV

What Apostle John is therefore saying is, that those who do NOT believe that Jesus of Nazareth is The Christ come in the flesh, Immanuel God with us, is an antichrist, or has the spirit of antichrist.

 

[CadyandZoe]

No it isn't!

The text tells us John sees martyred saints alive after they were killed for their faith. When were they martyred for their faith according to what is written? Before being martyred for their faith for the witness of Jesus, for the word of God, had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their forehead, or in their hands. Now, carefully read the time in which these martyred saints lived in faith BEFORE being martyred! John writes, "THEY LIVED AND REIGNED WITH CHRIST A THOUSAND YEARS."

Revelation 20:4 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Notice, John does NOT write they SHALL reign with Christ a thousand years, as we read in vs. 6. The martyred of vs 4 lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years before they died. But those blessed and holy of vs 6 having part in the first resurrection and overcome the second death, "SHALL REIGN WITH HIM A THOUSAND YEARS."

Revelation 20:6 (KJV) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

If a thousand years is literally one thousand years that shall come when Christ comes again to set up an earthly Kingdom of this earth, how could the martyred saints have already lived and reigned with Christ with Him a thousand years? In addition, how can a thousand years be both past for the martyred saints, yet still in the future for the blessed and holy that hath part in the first resurrection?

Clearly, Rev 20 does not support "The idea that Christ rules on earth for a thousand years is evident from Revelation 20." In fact when we read without a preconceived opinion for Premillennialism, the only way a/the thousand years of Rev 20 makes sense is when we understand that John is not saying literally one thousand years, but using a/the thousand years to symbolize an unspecified amount of time given this earth that began with the first advent of Christ and shall not be finished until the seventh trumpet begins to sound.

Bear in mind that some of the verbs in the text, such as "they came to life," are in Greek Aorist tense. One use of the Aorist tense is to describe or depict a future event as if one were standing with Jesus in the future. From our perspective, we would say, "They will come to life, and they will live and reign with Christ," speaking of a future event using the future tense.

But the Aorist is more vivid, placing the reader in the action. John sets up the event, describing a time in the future when thrones will be set up. And speaking from the perspective of THAT time period, he describes the resurrection of the martyrs as if they were being resurrected right in front of John's eyes saying, "they came to life and reigned with him for a thousand years." The portion I underlined is the aorist tense verb describing a future event as if it was happening in the present.

Also take note of verse 5, which indicates a different group than the first. The phrase “the rest of the dead” appears in Revelation 20:5, referring to hose who did not participate in the “first resurrection” and remain dead during the thousand-year reign of Christ.

 

[WPM]

Yes, exactly. Luke 21:33-36 lines up perfectly with 1 Thess 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 which, like Jesus, teach that heaven and earth will pass away when He comes and that no unbeliever will escape the "sudden destruction" by way of fire that will "come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth" on "that day" that Jesus comes unexpectedly like a thief in the night.

What is the rebuttal to this? "Rev 20 says this ..." They explain away the rest of the Bible with their faulty opinion of Revelation 20.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What is the rebuttal to this? "Rev 20 says this ..." They explain away the rest of the Bible with their faulty opinion of Revelation 20.

Yes. Any time we show them one of the many scriptures that contradict their interpretation of Revelation 20 they just respond with "But, what saith Revelation 20?". They change the rest of scripture to fit their interpretation of Revelation 20 instead of creating a foundation for their doctrine on clear, straightforward scripture (not much is clear and straightforward in the book of Revelation!) that can be used to help interpret passages like Revelation 20.

For whatever reason, they choose to use Revelation 20 as the foundation of their understand of the timing of the resurrection of saved and lost people instead of passages like John 5:28-29, Daniel 12:2 and Acts 24:15 which all indicate that the saved and the lost will be resurrected at generally the same time.

They also ignore the scriptures which explicitly teach that Jesus is reigning now and has been since His resurrection (Matt 28:16-18, Eph 1:19-23, Col 1:12-13, Rev 1:5-6, etc.).

And they ignore the scriptures which teach all unbelievers will be killed when Jesus returns (Matt 24:35-39, Luke 17:26-37, 1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-12, Rev 19:11-21, Rev 20:9).

And, of course, they ignore the scriptures which teach that all people will be judged at the same time (Matt 13:36-43, Matt 13:47-50, Matt 25:31-46, and implied in the passages that say all the dead will be resurrected at the same time.

 

[Douggg]

What is your understanding of what the tribulation entails? How long do you believe it will last? When do you believe the rapture will occur in relation to the tribulation?

I personally never use the term "the tribulation" nor "the trib" for short.

I use the term "the great tribulation". And also the term "7 year 70th week"

I believe the great tribulation will be 1335 days long. Beginning when the abomination of desolation statue image is setup on the temple mount. And ending when Jesus returns. The great tribulation will be the last 1335 days of the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You actually went OPPOSITE of the meaning from John about Jesus Christ as GOD come in the flesh...

1 John 4:3
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
KJV


1 John 2:22-23
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
KJV

Jesus of Nazareth is the name for the flesh-born man, but the term "the Christ" is a Heavenly Office Title associated with The Godhead that includes The Father.

This is why we are told in Matthew 1:23 that one of Lord Jesus' Titles is "Emmanuel", from Isaiah 7:14, which means "God with us"...

Matt 1:21-23
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for He shall save His people from their sins.
22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
23 "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel", which being interpreted is, God with us.
KJV

What Apostle John is therefore saying is, that those who do NOT believe that Jesus of Nazareth is The Christ come in the flesh, Immanuel God with us, is an antichrist, or has the spirit of antichrist.

No, this is incorrect. Contrary to your proposal, the term "Christ," which is the Anglicized version of the Hebrew word "Messiah," indicates an anointed, human man, king of Israel. All of the kings of Israel were men, and they were all anointed. Israel understood this concept and accepted it as fact.

But, the Bible speaks about a special son of God who would sit on David's throne forever. Presumably, based on this, they thought that the coming one, the special son of God that would sit on David's throne forever, would need to be an angel or a theophany because only an angel or a theophany can live forever.

In his epistle to the Hebrews, however, Paul argued that the son of God would not be an angel or a theophany but a man instead. It was fitting that the Messiah be a man and God's promise to David was that a human son of his would sit on his throne forever. (Refer to Psalm 8.) Some of the new converts to Christianity from among the Hebrews were falling away from the faith because some were arguing that Jesus' humanity disqualified him from being the messiah. Therefore, the better course was a return to Moses.

The Spirit of the antichrist denies that Jesus, having come in the flesh, is the messiah.

 

[Douggg]

..... you to think a 'rapture' PRIOR to the coming of that "false messianic age" is not a pre-trib rapture theory....

Davy, my pre-trib rapture view chart shows the rapture window before the 7 year 70th week begins and before the false messianic age.

 

[Davy]

No, this is incorrect. Contrary to your proposal, the term "Christ," which is the Anglicized version of the Hebrew word "Messiah," indicates an anointed, human man, king of Israel. All of the kings of Israel were men, and they were all anointed. Israel understood this concept and accepted it as fact.

Nope! What you... are saying is from JUDAISM of the Jews, for they believe that Jesus of Nazareth was just a flesh man only, and not GOD.

Those who refuse to belief that Jesus of Nazareth is "Immanuel" as written, which means "God with us", also as written, align themselves with antichrist.

It's that simple. No further discussion needed.

 

[David in NJ]

Let's review the text from John's first letter that mentions the sign of the antichrist.

1 John 4:2-4 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world. You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world.

John's message is clear: every spirit that acknowledges Jesus, who came in the flesh, as the Christ, is from God. Conversely, any spirit that denies Jesus as the Messiah, despite his human form, is the spirit of the antichrist. This understanding is crucial for our spiritual journey.

The peril that Trinitarians face is not to be underestimated. It's when some of them diminish the humanity of Jesus and inflate his supposed divinity. The Spirit of the antichrist, as John warns, is a spirit that denies the humanity of Jesus, suggesting that a man like Jesus couldn't be the Messiah. This dangerous spirit can seep into the hearts of Trinitarians who unintentionally disregard the humanity of Jesus. We must be vigilant and alert to avoid falling into this trap.

This spirit is evident in the answers to various theological questions such as "Was Jesus actually tempted to sin in the wilderness?" The spirit of the antichrist will say, "No. Jesus couldn't be tempted to sin because he isn't a man, he is divinity." Did Jesus, the man, die for our sins, or did Jesus, the God, die for our sins? The spirit of the antichrist will say that Jesus, the man, didn't die for our sins. It was Jesus the God who died for our sins. Did Jesus the man perform the miracles or did Jesus the God perform the miracles?

You see, Trinitarians run into danger when they are lured into the trap that every significant thing about Jesus was due to his divinity. His manhood is only incidental and insignificant. The allure of the antichrist spirit is to draw us away from the idea that Jesus, having come in the flesh, is the Messiah. Some Trinitarians ostensibly believe that Jesus is 100% man, but when it comes to questions such as those I raised above, they dismiss his humanity when it comes to the significant and important issues surrounding the role of the Messiah.

The Spirit of the antichrist, as John warns, is a spirit that denies the humanity of Jesus, suggesting that a man like Jesus couldn't be the Messiah.

The Apostle John was not ascerting that any man, like Jesus, could be the Messiah.

John was ascerting that God became a man when He sent His Only Begotten Son = "Immanuel, God with us"

Therefore, to deny the REALITY of God becoming a man is the SAME as saying that the MESSIAH cannot be a flesh and blood man.

There NEVER existed a man who did not sin except ONE = the Son of God, JESUS the MESSIAH in human form = Hebrews ch1

Since "All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God" then the ONLY SINLESS Man to Live in Perfection was the God/Man/Messiah
There were none before Him and none after Him who could defeat satan, sin and death.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Yes, we all can and there is no mention of Jesus reigning on the earth in Revelation 20.

Yes, there is.

Revelation 20:7-9 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

From the passage above, we can answer the question, "Where are the saints during the Millennium?" They are located in the Beloved City. And from where did Satan's army approach the Beloved city? From the "broad plain of the earth."

Why can't you acknowledge that? Is that because you are a dishonest person who has trouble telling the truth?

No. I am a careful reader.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Yes. Any time we show them one of the many scriptures that contradict their interpretation of Revelation 20 they just respond with "But, what saith Revelation 20?".

What's wrong with that?

They change the rest of scripture to fit their interpretation of Revelation 20

No we don't. Our interpretation of the rest of scripture is compatible with our interpretation of Revelation 20.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I personally never use the term "the tribulation" nor "the trib" for short.

I use the term "the great tribulation". And also the term "7 year 70th week"

I believe the great tribulation will be 1335 days long. Beginning when the abomination of desolation statue image is setup on the temple mount. And ending when Jesus returns. The great tribulation will be the last 1335 days of the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27.

Do you believe the rapture will occur before "the great tribulation"?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, there is.

Revelation 20:7-9 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

From the passage above, we can answer the question, "Where are the saints during the Millennium?" They are located in the Beloved City. And from where did Satan's army approach the Beloved city? From the "broad plain of the earth."

Where is Jesus mentioned as being on the earth there? Nowhere. That is your assumption. Stop lying by acting is if it is explicitly mentioned there, which it is not.

If the first resurrection referred to the bodily resurrection of saints at Christ's coming then they would have immortal bodies. Why would Jesus reign on the earth with saints who have immortal bodies and why would anyone think they can go and attack and destroy people with immortal bodies?

No. I am a careful reader.

Clearly not. You apparently have never read this carefully:

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[CadyandZoe]

LOL. You are full of hot air. I showed scripture that says Jesus created all things and you reject that scripture.

I don't reject Scripture, which are the autographs. I reject your translation, which has been formulated to agree with the Tribulation Doctrine.

So, I reject everything you say because your beliefs are Satanic.

You reject everything I say because you have an emotional interest in maintaining your view. It isn't easy to admit when you are wrong.

LOL. This is such incredible nonsense. He is God, but not deity?

That's right. Have you never read, "And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature . . ." Jesus is God in his identity, not his ontology. Contrary to the Trinity Doctrine, the Bible does not teach us that Jesus and the Father are of the same essence. It teaches us that Jesus perfectly represents the Father to us.

LOL. Such utter foolishness. How can you say He is God, but not deity?

I already gave you a definition of deity and pointed out that Jesus doesn't meet any of those criteria. Why do you reject the facts?

That is the dumbest argument imaginable. Absolutely stupid.
I reject your Satanic teaching.
LOL. Shut up.
Yes, I get that you have been deceived by Satan and you are spiritually blind and need to repent of your denial of the deity of Christ.
Total nonsense It's based on scripture that you reject.
I don't need to listen to your Satanic nonsense.
I reject your Satanic doctrine because you do not know Jesus personally. That is obvious. No Christian denies the deity of the Great God and Savior Jesus Christ.

I see your struggle.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Nope! What you... are saying is from JUDAISM of the Jews, for they believe that Jesus of Nazareth was just a flesh man only, and not GOD.

Those who refuse to belief that Jesus of Nazareth is "Immanuel" as written, which means "God with us", also as written, align themselves with antichrist.

It's that simple. No further discussion needed.

Right. They had Him killed because they believed He was committing blasphemy by indicating He was God. As He told them in John 8:58, "before Abraham was, I AM.". Only God could say that. And they were going to stone Him to death right then and there after He said that, but Jesus got out of there because it wasn't the right time yet.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What's wrong with that?

Hello? Are you not reading what is being said? What's wrong with that is that you interpret Revelation 20 in such a way that contradicts other scripture.

No we don't. Our interpretation of the rest of scripture is compatible with our interpretation of Revelation 20.

No, it absolutely is not. It contradicts all the scriptures that teach that Jesus has been reigning since His resurrection (Matt 28:16-18, Eph 1:19-23, Col 1:12-13, Rev 1:5-6), the scriptures which teach that Satan has been bound since the first coming of Christ (Matt 12:28-29, 1 John 3:8, Hebrews 2:14-15, Acts 26:18, Col 2:14-15), the scriptures that teach all people, saved and lost, will be resurrected at the same time (John 5:28-29, Daniel 12:2, Acts 24:15), the scriptures which teach that all people will be judged at the same time (Matt 13:16-43, Matt 13:47-50, Matt 25:31-46), and the scriptures which teach that all living unbelievers will be killed when Jesus returns (Matt 24:35-39, Luke 17:26-37, 1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-12, Rev 19:17-18, Rev 20:9).