The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[CadyandZoe]

No it isn't!!!

It is evident from Revelation 20 for those who read the text literally, the way John intended it.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Where does it teach that "Christ rules on earth for a thousand years ... [in] Revelation 20"? Quote actual text.

You can read it as well as I can.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Please keep your false charges and heresy away from this thread.

Not until you do.

 

[WPM]

You can read it as well as I can.

Lol. Classic fudge! Your avoidance speaks volumes. It is more testimony that what you are promoting is false teaching.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Lol. Classic fudge! Your avoidance speaks volumes. It is more testimony that what you are promoting is false teaching.

I'm not going to fall for your trickery. Go read it for yourself.

 

[WPM]

I have never read the left behind novels. And yet I can tell there is a pretribulation rapture based on the Word of God.



Heaven and earth will pass away, and the Words of our Lord will no pass away. What are His words that will not pass away.
This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
when ye see these things come to pass

Luke 21
29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.

31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

There is a group of people that will see these things come to pass and there is a group of people that can escape all these things that come to pass. Both groups will be raptured.

The Church will escape all these things that come to pass. What things will the Church escape? False Christs, the beast of the sea and beast of the earth. Wars, famine, pestilence and the great tribulation.

Whereas the twelve tribes across the earth will go through these things including the great tribulation. However, they are also to look up because the Lord comes immediately after the tribulation OF THOSE DAYS. That is the coming of Jesus, the second coming at the 6th seal and then the wrath of God begins.

Two raptures........two harvests..........two brides............as Jacob had two brides and one was the chosen bride.

You force your own teaching into the sacred text. You have to. After the text describes the approaching removal of the current corrupt created order (and the wicked), you insert your Pretrib list of events to the same text. This is adding unto Scripture, something strictly forbidden in the Bible.

You then usher Christ-rejecting Israel into some future imaginary tribulation period after the second coming that you will not tell us the duration of.

Well, guess what? There will be no corrupt earth to populate. It is all going up in a puff of smoke. This text totally forbids your doctrine.

Jesus warned in Luke 21:33-36: “Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares [Gr. aifnídios meaning suddenly). For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

The phrase "all these things" (that Pretribbers keep getting tripped up on every time this is discussed) is not everything the Left Behind novels have taught them (including some imaginary future 7-year trib), it is talking about the total destruction and removal of the wicked and current corrupted creation. Read what the text is actually saying.

 

[WPM]

I'm not going to fall for your trickery. Go read it for yourself.

If you had it you would quote it, but you do not. We come across this everyday on these forums with false teaching. It cannot be shown or found in the Book.

 

[David in NJ]

Negative. As I said, you don't understand the concepts. And since you don't understand the concepts, I wonder why you decided to believe what you believe. Deity doesn't refer to the identity of the being himself; it refers to his nature.

In case you forgot, or you didn't know, the essential teaching of the Trinity doctrine is that Jesus and the Father are both of the same ousia -- essential nature. Search the internet or a systematic theology for the qualities of God's nature and you will find a list like the following:

The unique qualities of God the Father:
Infinite -- God is self-existent and without origin. He has always existed and will always exist, beyond the constraints of time and space.
Immutable -- God does not change. His nature, character, and promises remain constant throughout time.
Omnipotent -- God is all powerful. He has unlimited power and can accomplish anything that aligns with his nature.
Omniscient -- God is all knowing. He possesses complete and perfect knowledge of everything, past, present and future.
Omnipresent -- God is present everywhere at all times. There is no place where he is not.

Trinitarians argue incorrectly that Jesus also shares these qualities with the Father. He does not.

Jesus is not self-existent and without origin. He was born to the virgin Mary.
Jesus is not immutable. He began as a baby and matured in stature and wisdom.
Jesus is not Omnipresent -- After Jesus walked away from the tomb the Angels remarked "he is not here; he is risen."
Jesus is not Omniscient -- When asked whether the kingdom would be restored to Israel, Jesus tells his disciples that only the Father knows the times and the seasons.
Jesus is not Omnipotent -- He tells the Sanhedrin that if it was necessary, the Father would send thousands of mighty angels to defend him.


I don't deny that Jesus is God. I deny that Jesus is deity. Jesus is God by identity, not by ontology.

I reject your translation.

I have resisted saying this for many years, but since you raised the issue I must warn you that the Trinitarian Doctrine is antichristian in some of it's propositions. Be careful.


I didn't tell you a joke, but you're hatred of me is keeping you from seeing the point I made. THE PHILOSOPHY BEHIND CALTHOLIC TEACHING CONCERNING THE EUCHARIST IS THE EXACT SAME PHILOSOPHY BEHIND THE TRINITY DOCTRINE OF THE HYPOSTASIS.

Got it yet? The force of my argument to you is my knowledge that you DON'T believe Catholic teaching concerning the eucharist. Thus, if you don't believe the Catholics concerning the Eucharist, and I know you don't, then why do you believe the Trinity Doctrine, which comes from the same philosophy?

As I said, you speak without knowledge. You didn't know that the Trinity Doctrine was based on Greek philosophy did you? You didn't know that it crept into the Christian church via the Early Church Fathers who brought their Greek Philosophy with them, did You? I don't think you did. You have no real basis for your belief, which is why you resort to ad hominem argumentation.

I rejected the doctrine a long time ago because it is contradictory. And I have the courage to admit it.

I have resisted saying this for many years, but since you raised the issue I must warn you that the Trinitarian Doctrine is antichristian in some of it's propositions. Be careful.

Well, please elaborate..................

 

[rwb]

It is evident from Revelation 20 for those who read the text literally, the way John intended it.

No it isn't!

The text tells us John sees martyred saints alive after they were killed for their faith. When were they martyred for their faith according to what is written? Before being martyred for their faith for the witness of Jesus, for the word of God, had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their forehead, or in their hands. Now, carefully read the time in which these martyred saints lived in faith BEFORE being martyred! John writes, "THEY LIVED AND REIGNED WITH CHRIST A THOUSAND YEARS."

Revelation 20:4 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Notice, John does NOT write they SHALL reign with Christ a thousand years, as we read in vs. 6. The martyred of vs 4 lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years before they died. But those blessed and holy of vs 6 having part in the first resurrection and overcome the second death, "SHALL REIGN WITH HIM A THOUSAND YEARS."

Revelation 20:6 (KJV) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

If a thousand years is literally one thousand years that shall come when Christ comes again to set up an earthly Kingdom of this earth, how could the martyred saints have already lived and reigned with Christ with Him a thousand years? In addition, how can a thousand years be both past for the martyred saints, yet still in the future for the blessed and holy that hath part in the first resurrection?

Clearly, Rev 20 does not support "The idea that Christ rules on earth for a thousand years is evident from Revelation 20." In fact when we read without a preconceived opinion for Premillennialism, the only way a/the thousand years of Rev 20 makes sense is when we understand that John is not saying literally one thousand years, but using a/the thousand years to symbolize an unspecified amount of time given this earth that began with the first advent of Christ and shall not be finished until the seventh trumpet begins to sound.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You can read it as well as I can.

Yes, we all can and there is no mention of Jesus reigning on the earth in Revelation 20. Why can't you acknowledge that? Is that because you are a dishonest person who has trouble telling the truth?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

If you had it you would quote it, but you do not. We come across this everyday on these forums with false teaching. It cannot be shown or found in the Book.

It's easy to recognize those false teachers. They do not answer straightforward questions with straightforward answers. It can't get any more straightforward than asking where Revelation 20 says anything about Jesus reigning on the earth. That is what he is claiming it says, yet he can't even show us where it says it. That's exactly what deceivers do. They make claims like that and when questioned about it they will not answer the question, proving that they are just making up lies.

 

[WPM]

It's easy to recognize those false teachers. They do not answer straightforward questions with straightforward answers. It can't get any more straightforward than asking where Revelation 20 says anything about Jesus reigning on the earth. That is what he is claiming it says, yet he can't even show us where it says it. That's exactly what deceivers do. They make claims like that and when questioned about it they will not answer the question, proving that they are just making up lies.

True. It is simply not there. Premils are always adding unto Scripture. They force their imaginary future millennium into text after text where it does not exist.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Negative. As I said, you don't understand the concepts.

LOL. You are full of hot air. I showed scripture that says Jesus created all things and you reject that scripture. So, I reject everything you say because your beliefs are Satanic.

And since you don't understand the concepts, I wonder why you decided to believe what you believe. Deity doesn't refer to the identity of the being himself; it refers to his nature.

In case you forgot, or you didn't know, the essential teaching of the Trinity doctrine is that Jesus and the Father are both of the same ousia -- essential nature. Search the internet or a systematic theology for the qualities of God's nature and you will find a list like the following:

The unique qualities of God the Father:
Infinite -- God is self-existent and without origin. He has always existed and will always exist, beyond the constraints of time and space.
Immutable -- God does not change. His nature, character, and promises remain constant throughout time.
Omnipotent -- God is all powerful. He has unlimited power and can accomplish anything that aligns with his nature.
Omniscient -- God is all knowing. He possesses complete and perfect knowledge of everything, past, present and future.
Omnipresent -- God is present everywhere at all times. There is no place where he is not.

Trinitarians argue incorrectly that Jesus also shares these qualities with the Father. He does not.

Jesus is not self-existent and without origin. He was born to the virgin Mary.
Jesus is not immutable. He began as a baby and matured in stature and wisdom.
Jesus is not Omnipresent -- After Jesus walked away from the tomb the Angels remarked "he is not here; he is risen."
Jesus is not Omniscient -- When asked whether the kingdom would be restored to Israel, Jesus tells his disciples that only the Father knows the times and the seasons.
Jesus is not Omnipotent -- He tells the Sanhedrin that if it was necessary, the Father would send thousands of mighty angels to defend him.


I don't deny that Jesus is God. I deny that Jesus is deity. Jesus is God by identity, not by ontology.

LOL. This is such incredible nonsense. He is God, but not deity? LOL. Such utter foolishness. How can you say He is God, but not deity? That is the dumbest argument imaginable. Absolutely stupid.

I reject your translation.

I reject your Satanic teaching.

I have resisted saying this for many years, but since you raised the issue I must warn you that the Trinitarian Doctrine is antichristian in some of it's propositions. Be careful.

LOL. Shut up.

I didn't tell you a joke, but you're hatred of me is keeping you from seeing the point I made. THE PHILOSOPHY BEHIND CALTHOLIC TEACHING CONCERNING THE EUCHARIST IS THE EXACT SAME PHILOSOPHY BEHIND THE TRINITY DOCTRINE OF THE HYPOSTASIS.

Got it yet?

Yes, I get that you have been deceived by Satan and you are spiritually blind and need to repent of your denial of the deity of Christ.

The force of my argument to you is my knowledge that you DON'T believe Catholic teaching concerning the eucharist. Thus, if you don't believe the Catholics concerning the Eucharist, and I know you don't, then why do you believe the Trinity Doctrine, which comes from the same philosophy?

As I said, you speak without knowledge. You didn't know that the Trinity Doctrine was based on Greek philosophy did you?

Total nonsense It's based on scripture that you reject.

You didn't know that it crept into the Christian church via the Early Church Fathers who brought their Greek Philosophy with them, did You? I don't think you did. You have no real basis for your belief, which is why you resort to ad hominem argumentation.

I don't need to listen to your Satanic nonsense.

I rejected the doctrine a long time ago because it is contradictory. And I have the courage to admit it.

I reject your Satanic doctrine because you do not know Jesus personally. That is obvious. No Christian denies the deity of the Great God and Savior Jesus Christ.

 

[Davy]

A pre-trib chart does not have the rapture taking place after the 7 year 70th week begins.

Differently, my Anytime Rapture View chart has that possibility that the rapture may not take place until after the 7 year 70th week begins.


View attachment 48531

Why are you telling lies?

Right there in YOUR chart you have the "Rapture" showing in blue DURING the timing Daniel 9:27 and the appearance of false-Messiah! That is a false PRE-TRIB RAPTURE idea your chart is showing.

So WHY... are you trying to fool brethren here?

 

[CadyandZoe]

If you had it you would quote it, but you do not.

What makes you think I don't have a Bible?

We come across this everyday on these forums with false teaching.

Who is "we"? You have a mouse in your pocket?

It cannot be shown or found in the Book.

And anyone can find it in Revelation 20. Just read it.

 

[Douggg]

Why are you telling lies?

Right there in YOUR chart you have the "Rapture" showing in blue DURING the timing Daniel 9:27 and the appearance of false-Messiah! That is a false PRE-TRIB RAPTURE idea your chart is showing.

So WHY... are you trying to fool brethren here?

Davy, the chart of mine in your post is the anytime rapture view chart - not the pre-trib rapture view chart.

Below is the pre-trib rapture view chart. Pre-tribbers consider the entire 70th week as tribulation. Therefore, in their view, the rapture has to take place before the 70th week begins.

 

[WPM]

What makes you think I don't have a Bible?

Who is "we"? You have a mouse in your pocket?

And anyone can find it in Revelation 20. Just read it.

No, it is not there, and you know it. That is why you (or no Premil) has been able to show it.

 

[WPM]

Davy, the chart of mine in your post is the anytime rapture view chart - not the pretrib raptiew view chart.

Below is the pre-trib rapture view chart. Pre-tribbers consider the entire 70th week as tribulation. Therefore, in their view, the rapture has to take place before the 70th week begins.

View attachment 49034

Do you believe the trib is 7 years?

 

[Douggg]

Do you believe the trib is 7 years?

I don't called the great tribulation as "the trib". I don't use the term "the trib" because it is confusing.

I believe the great tribulation will be 1335 days long. Beginning when the abomination of desolation statue image is setup on the temple mount. And ending when Jesus returns.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
pre-tribbers, mid-tribbers, post-tribbers refer to the 7 year 70th week as "the trib". But I don't because the 7 years is not all "tribulation". For much of the first half, the world will be saying "peace and safety".

 

[CadyandZoe]

Well, please elaborate..................

Let's review the text from John's first letter that mentions the sign of the antichrist.

1 John 4:2-4 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world. You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world.

John's message is clear: every spirit that acknowledges Jesus, who came in the flesh, as the Christ, is from God. Conversely, any spirit that denies Jesus as the Messiah, despite his human form, is the spirit of the antichrist. This understanding is crucial for our spiritual journey.

The peril that Trinitarians face is not to be underestimated. It's when some of them diminish the humanity of Jesus and inflate his supposed divinity. The Spirit of the antichrist, as John warns, is a spirit that denies the humanity of Jesus, suggesting that a man like Jesus couldn't be the Messiah. This dangerous spirit can seep into the hearts of Trinitarians who unintentionally disregard the humanity of Jesus. We must be vigilant and alert to avoid falling into this trap.

This spirit is evident in the answers to various theological questions such as "Was Jesus actually tempted to sin in the wilderness?" The spirit of the antichrist will say, "No. Jesus couldn't be tempted to sin because he isn't a man, he is divinity." Did Jesus, the man, die for our sins, or did Jesus, the God, die for our sins? The spirit of the antichrist will say that Jesus, the man, didn't die for our sins. It was Jesus the God who died for our sins. Did Jesus the man perform the miracles or did Jesus the God perform the miracles?

You see, Trinitarians run into danger when they are lured into the trap that every significant thing about Jesus was due to his divinity. His manhood is only incidental and insignificant. The allure of the antichrist spirit is to draw us away from the idea that Jesus, having come in the flesh, is the Messiah. Some Trinitarians ostensibly believe that Jesus is 100% man, but when it comes to questions such as those I raised above, they dismiss his humanity when it comes to the significant and important issues surrounding the role of the Messiah.