Open Debate Challenge on My Defending the KJV as the Perfect Word for Today in English

[MatthewG]

See post 519

I wish I wasn’t so lazy!

Can I ask you this, and you tell me if I am right or wrong.

Sheol was the holding place of the bad and good, souls. And angels in prison resided in the darker regions? This is basically hell…

Abrahams bosom (Paradise) and (Prison) both separated from each other but in whole with the together of them.

While the people may have more rest on the Paradise side I’m sure they where eager to obtain their new bodies once sin was paid for.

Those on the prison has a lot to think about and constantly needing.

Eventually this place is poured out in Revelation. And it’s done away with. It’s like a huge bison tub you fill with water.

 

[MatthewG]

I love my KJV, in spite of its many errors, it's the key text by which I orient my study with the Strongs, familiar with its unique vocabulary, making it easy to mark with foot notes the errors. It's not perfect at all. From the tampering of the Deuteronomists, Masoretic Jews, Roman and Protestant Christians, the only who thinks it's perfect only think so after these tampering's, under this weird self-important argument from providence that what you are holding is that of the many Bibles, somehow only the one in your hand is designed and sustained by God for the benefit of you. Well, aren't you special, and the Ethiopian or Coptic Christians are not, because... Pure bias.

I say the Spirit can testify of the truths and clarify the flaws in the KJV, KJV can still be a medium, ultimately be comfortable using it, with a vague feeling its generally true, but the KJV Comma Johanneum was not scripture, certainly not just because of its mere presence in the KJV.

Bump for py.

 

[Grailhunter]

The only way you can say that the TR / KJV was an addition to God’s words is if you believe that the shorter readings of the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus are the two primary manuscripts uplifted by the juggernaut machine or the Bible Industrial Complex (Which began initially with Westcott and Hort). No doubt you want to deny these two Alexandrian manuscripts are the foundation of the Modern Bible Movement because we can see that they are corrupt. Corrections are all over them. Even Erasmus was aware of Vaticanus and he rejected it. He was the top Greek scholar of his day and he clearly had more manuscripts in his time vs. Today. Textual Critic Dan Wallace said we have lost 1 million manuscripts in world war 2. But we also know the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus are false because they teach Catholic ideas and other false doctrines. That should raise an alarm bell but you refuse to look at my points that I brought up on the changed doctrine and you just keep espousing a false narrative like the Leftist machine in politics.

I am not talking about any of that. Or other works of men. Nor am I limiting it to any set of scriptures.

And including all manuscripts put focusing on scriptures 3rd century and before.

Everytime I talk to you, you try to deceive the readers into thinking that this is about translating a limited number of manuscripts.

They were looking at everything that is available now and older manuscripts that were not available at the time when the KJV was being produced.

 

[Grailhunter]

Notice how you did not address any of the points I brought up. You just side stepped them. You are also not proving your case about how the KJV had the corrupted words of God and only Westcott and Hort were our true heroes in this story. You have not given me any reason to trust how the Modern Bibles or their underlying text is superior to the KJV. You have not given me any Bible verses to show how the Modern Bible Movement and their Textual Criticism is valid or true.

I am not going to go over what has already covered.

And I do not care if you trust modern Bibles.

 

[Grailhunter]

All you have are the words of scholars. I have the Bible.

All you have is a old error ridden translation. The manuscripts that the Apostles wrote were the Word of God. The copies relied on the accuracy of men and as time went on men thought they could improve upon the work of the Apostles and added and subtract and changed things.

As far as holiness all Bibles are on an even keel…..none are holy. They are translations based on what manuscript they were using. They are only as good as how close they are to the original manuscripts.

Of course scholars agree the older the better….now if you want your Bible to be based on the words of men rather than the Words of God….the KJV would be the Bible of choice

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Dude your idolatry is severe

Sorry, like many, you do not know what idolatry even is.

Was the Psalmist into idolatry because je loved God’s word because it was very pure?

Psalms 119:140
“Thy word is very pure: therefore thy servant loveth it.”

Surely not.

Was Moses into idolatry because he believed he was carrying the perfect words of God (written by the finger of God) on two stone tablets down from the Mountain?

Surely not.

So you don’t know what you are talking about.

I Can get saved using any modern bible. I may be confused in some Doctrines.

I believe a person can be initially saved by a Modern Translation. The problem arises when they doubt the words of God when they run into the doubt producing footnotes and or they run into doctrinal problems that exist in that Modern Bible.

But I can be just as confused reading the kin which is not perfect.

Have no idea here what you are saying.

God did not tell the church to get people to
Take classes in old English so they could get saved.

If a person reads English, they can understand the KJV enough to get saved by it.

God did not even inspire an English bible. So lay off your idolatry and fine another battle. This one makes you look bad

Inspiration is more like illumination according to the Scriptures.

Job 32:8
“But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.”

I believe the KJV translators were given illumination at certain points in time during the translation process.
I say this because we see bread crumbs that the hand of God was upon the KJV through history.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I am not talking about any of that. Or other works of men. Nor am I limiting it to any set of scriptures.

And including all manuscripts put focusing on scriptures 3rd cenenty and before.

Older manuscripts is no indication or proof that it is the correct manuscripts. Marcion’s writings are old and yet he corrupted the Scriptures. Even Paul said there were those who were corrupting the Word of God in his day.

Everytime I talk to you, you try to deceive the readers into thinking that this is about translating a limited number of manuscripts.

Again, you are uneducated on this topic. Talk to a real Textual Critic or ask ChatGPT, or something. Vaticanus and Sinaiticus are the two primary manuscripts of the Modern Bible Movement. Now, are there other manuscripts that are used? Yes. But the Modern Bible Movement is still in the minority. The Byzantine manuscripts make up the 5,800 manuscripts we have today. These manuscripts support the KJV more and not the manuscripts by the Modern Bible Movement.

They were looking at everything that is available now and older manuscripts that were not available at the time when the KJV was being produced.

And they were in error because they were heretics.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

All you have is a old error ridden translation. The manuscripts that the Apostles wrote were the Word of God. The copies relied on the accuracy of men and as time went on men thought they could improve upon the work of the Apostles and added and subtract and changed things.

As far as holiness all Bibles are on an even keel…..none are holy. They are translations based on what manuscript they were using. They are only as good as how close they are to the original manuscripts.

Of course scholars agree the older the better….now if you want your Bible to be based on the words of men rather than the Words of God….the KJV would be the Bible of choice

But think of the problem of this belief. Everyone gets to be their own authority and it is not God’s Word being the authority. Then there is all the money and greed in the Modern Bible Movement. You cannot make a Bible app with a Modern Bible without paying heavy fees to them. You cannot quote from the NIV in your church nonstop without written permission. They have the Communist (oppressive government) control over you just like the Left is seeking to do with us. You can spend thousands and thousands of dollars on Logos Bible software just to get information on the faith. This is insanity. But you are free to drink from this well of insanity if you like.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I am not going to go over what has already covered.

And I do not care if you trust modern Bibles.

Right, because there is no real Bible or settled text that you guys have.

 

[Rockerduck]

I have found that born again from above Christian men, filled with the Holy Spirit, all prefer the KJB. I see that in bible classes I'm in.

 

[Grailhunter]

I wish I wasn’t so lazy!

Can I ask you this, and you tell me if I am right or wrong.

Sheol was the holding place of the bad and good, souls. And angels in prison resided in the darker regions? This is basically hell…

Abrahams bosom (Paradise) and (Prison) both separated from each other but in whole with the together of them.

While the people may have more rest on the Paradise side I’m sure they where eager to obtain their new bodies once sin was paid for.

Those on the prison has a lot to think about and constantly needing.

Eventually this place is poured out in Revelation. And it’s done away with. It’s like a huge bison tub you fill with water.

Post 519
Sheol was the holding place of the bad and good, souls. And angels in prison resided in the darker regions? This is basically hell… There are a lot of theories about Sheol because the scriptures do not go into detail about it....Jews and Christians have been expanding upon the concept for centuries. Some believe it is where everyone goes.....Which brings up more questions than answers.

1. The scripture do not indicate that Sheol was discontinued. So does it still exist?

2. Is the upper level of Sheol called paradise as Christ mentioned on the cross?

3. Does Sheol have levels....good to bad and how does that work?

4. Does the resurrection occur from Sheol?


Abrahams bosom (Paradise) Basically Shoel....all were gathered with their fathers. Then Abraham breathed his last and died at a good old age, an old man and full of years; and he was gathered to his people. Genesis 25:8

 

[Grailhunter]

God would not have allowed the KJB to be used if it was imperfectly corrupted. I mean, millions were saved over 300 yrs. with the KJB and it is public domain. You can even download the KJB free. Billions are made on the modern translations. What new truth can save anyone, that is not already in the KJB?

Oh my….Do you think God came down and had a ceremony and christened the KJB? LOL There were a lot of Bibles before the KJB and after. None were holy and the better ones are more accurate to the originals….No originals but the thinking is that the older manuscripts are closer to the originals. And God allows us to use all the Bibles and none of them are perfect

 

[Grailhunter]

Older manuscripts is no indication or proof that it is the correct manuscripts. Marcion’s writings are old and yet he corrupted the Scriptures. Even Paul said there were those who were corrupting the Word of God in his day.

I will let the reader decide if you are right about the older manuscipts and Marcion was Gnostic....do we care what he wrote?

But think of the problem of this belief. Everyone gets to be their own authority and it is not God’s Word being the authority. Then there is all the money and greed in the Modern Bible Movement. You cannot make a Bible app with a Modern Bible without paying heavy fees to them. You cannot quote from the NIV in your church nonstop without written permission. They have the Communist (oppressive government) control over you just like the Left is seeking to do with us. You can spend thousands and thousands of dollars on Logos Bible software just to get information on the faith. This is insanity. But you are free to drink from this well of insanity if you like.

God's Word was written by the Apostles and from there it is all copies. The Modern translations work to get closer to the originals.....you do not do that by focusing on the newer manuscripts.

The rest of your post reads like more conspiracy theories.

 

[Grailhunter]

Older manuscripts is no indication or proof that it is the correct manuscripts. Marcion’s writings are old and yet he corrupted the Scriptures. Even Paul said there were those who were corrupting the Word of God in his day.


Again, you are uneducated on this topic. Talk to a real Textual Critic or ask ChatGPT, or something. Vaticanus and Sinaiticus are the two primary manuscripts of the Modern Bible Movement. Now, are there other manuscripts that are used? Yes. But the Modern Bible Movement is still in the minority. The Byzantine manuscripts make up the 5,800 manuscripts we have today. These manuscripts support the KJV more and not the manuscripts by the Modern Bible Movement.


And they were in error because they were heretics.

That is the point the heretics came later with the newer manuscripts.

And as for the rest of your post….I am not going to respond to rudeness and ignorance......as they say, you cannot fix stupid,

 

[MatthewG]

Post 519
Sheol was the holding place of the bad and good, souls. And angels in prison resided in the darker regions? This is basically hell… There are a lot of theories about Sheol because the scriptures do not go into detail about it....Jews and Christians have been expanding upon the concept for centuries. Some believe it is where everyone goes.....Which brings up more questions than answers.

1. The scripture do not indicate that Sheol was discontinued. So does it still exist?

2. Is the upper level of Sheol called paradise as Christ mentioned on the cross?

3. Does Sheol have levels....good to bad and how does that work?

4. Does the resurrection occur from Sheol?


Abrahams bosom (Paradise) Basically Shoel....all were gathered with their fathers. Then Abraham breathed his last and died at a good old age, an old man and full of years; and he was gathered to his people. Genesis 25:8

The imagery of the prison part of “hell” I believe we could go to Jonah and assess three days in a whale. What a ride, horrific, only one to call out to was God in that instance, after three days though. It makes me wonder about the outside of the Kingdom of Heaven and if we are able to help those out there. The imagery of. “heavenish Paradise” and the ways of “prison” are founded in the Parable of the Rich man and Laz.

 

[MatthewG]

There are differing glories of stars, and bodies too @Grailhunter as well as a better resurrection than the normal or the condemned one. There seems there are differing measures of faith, and differing levels of resurrection, as well as differing glories. All us are to receive a new habitat when we leave here what that looks like is kind of up to us in how one lives life towards self or towards God who gives those rewards, @Grailhunter im sure you’ll be happy with your outcome; maybe or maybe not I’ll be okay with mine, it depends on my effort put in building with spiritual treasures and things of heavenly not where rust can get to the rim of the tire.

Sheol itself doesn’t seem separated by any means, it’s the covering place for the dead. And it seems angels were stored in a further placement of the same place of course it’s speculation.

 

[Grailhunter]

Right, because there is no real Bible or settled text that you guys have.

As far as the Bibles, they all the same. The difference is how close they are to what the Apostles wrote.
A Bible is a book and they are all books, the works of men....some more accurate than others The term "real Bible" is an ambiguous term.

 

[Grailhunter]

There are differing glories of stars, and bodies too @Grailhunter as well as a better resurrection than the normal or the condemned one. There seems there are differing measures of faith, and differing levels of resurrection, as well as differing glories. All us are to receive a new habitat when we leave here what that looks like is kind of up to us in how one lives life towards self or towards God who gives those rewards, @Grailhunter im sure you’ll be happy with your outcome; maybe or maybe not I’ll be okay with mine, it depends on my effort put in building with spiritual treasures and things of heavenly not where rust can get to the rim of the tire.

Sheol itself doesn’t seem separated by any means, it’s the covering place for the dead. And it seems angels were stored in a further placement of the same place of course it’s speculation.

Oh I am not going to debate it, not enough information.

 

[TheOneHeLoves]

To all:

I have defended the KJV as the perfect Word for today on this forum.

I open the challenge to any Christian here to a debate on YouTube via Nick Sayers channel (Revolution). I challenge any Christian who does not believe the King James Bible is the perfect and inspired words of God for the English speaking people of today.

If you are interested in debating me live on YouTube, please let me know and I can have Nick arrange it. You will of course have time to prepare.

Thanks for your time.

May God bless you in Jesus name.

I'm not a scholar and Jesus used Peter who was a fisherman and not a Pharisee to preach. The Prophets, Priesthood, Pharisees had the Original language and yet they could not understand TRUTH. I admit there are some bad translations (The Message, Passion) but to say the the KJV is the perfect Word is blasphemy in my eyes. Unless you can read the original language (Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic) all of the translations are translations.
But what is great than a translation is the Holy Spirit who will give understanding regardless of a rewording but it is about the spirit of the message. God will reveal to those He chooses and keep hidden the message from others.

What debate with Christians over this and instead debate or actually theology/doctrine?

 

[Grailhunter]

The imagery of the prison part of “hell” I believe we could go to Jonah and assess three days in a whale. What a ride, horrific, only one to call out to was God in that instance, after three days though. It makes me wonder about the outside of the Kingdom of Heaven and if we are able to help those out there. The imagery of. “heavenish Paradise” and the ways of “prison” are founded in the Parable of the Rich man and Laz.

Most scholars consider that something between a parable and a allegory. I do not think someone in fire is going to do much talking, mostly screaming. But still I am on the fence on this.