There are 2 tribulation periods, the “first” is to the Jews

[Earburner]

(Ref. Post #4):Their system of belief is that they have moved the "70th week" off into the far future. They do not know that it was Jesus who fulfilled the 70th week, being that of the first 3.5 years of His ministry in the flesh, and then also of the 3.5 years remaining, confirming the New covenant with the early church by His Spirit.

 

[Earburner]

The 4th and final beast is made up of all the remnants (body parts)of the previous 3 beasts kingdoms.

Revelation 13:2
And the beast which I saw was like unto a “leopard,” and his feet were as the feet of a “bear,”and his mouth as the mouth of “a lion:”and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Even though those kingdoms of Babylon the Lion, Persia the Bear, and Greece the Leopard do not remain in the physical sense, in the “spiritual sense”a lot of their beliefs, traditions, ideologies, and styles of governance remain still today.

That is why the 4th beast would be “diverse”from the first 3. When the Lord cleanses the earth with fire a “remnant” of the nations shall be left to repopulate the earth during the thousand year reign of Christ on earth with his saints. That remnant that is left of the nations is what comes against the saints after the thousands years is complete. This is shown as the battle of Gog and Magog.

I wrote a thread on the “feet” of the Bear kingdom, which I believe is important to understand concerning end time prophecy.

Peace

You were doing just fine, until you fell into their future literal 1000 year false doctrine of the KoG on earth, after Christ returns in flaming fire.
Maybe you can discover how the figurative 1000 years has been happening, ever since Jesus ascended, by fully understanding that it is all about God's present Age of His Grace through faith in Jesus.
2 Peter 3:1-18
[8] But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day IS with the Lord AS [like] A thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
[9] The Lord is not slack concerning his PROMISE, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
[15] And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation;

 

[JLB]

(Ref. Post #4):Their system of belief is that they have moved the "70th week" off into the far future. They do not know that it was Jesus who fulfilled the 70th week, being that of the first 3.5 years of His ministry in the flesh, and then also of the 3.5 years remaining, confirming the New covenant with the early church by His Spirit.

Let's look at Daniel.


“Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy. v.24

“Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times. v.25

“And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined. v. 26

Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.”
Daniel 9:24-27


So we see there are 70 weeks determined to accomplish some specific things.


“Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.

Verse 25 spells out what will be accomplished in the first 69 weeks.


The first 69 weeks ends with an event called Messiah the Prince.

“Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.

Do you know what this event was in scripture?




JLB

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Let's look at Daniel.


“Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy. v.24

“Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times. v.25

“And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined. v. 26

Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.”
Daniel 9:24-27


So we see there are 70 weeks determined to accomplish some specific things.


“Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.

Verse 25 spells out what will be accomplished in the first 69 weeks.


The first 69 weeks ends with an event called Messiah the Prince.

“Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.

Do you know what this event was in scripture?




JLB

I believe it's referring to this which describes when Jesus was first announced as the Messiah, the Son of God.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. 30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me. 31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. 32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. 33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. 34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

You were doing just fine, until you fell into their future literal 1000 year false doctrine of the KoG on earth, after Christ returns in flaming fire.
Maybe you can discover how the figurative 1000 years has been happening, ever since Jesus ascended, by fully understanding that it is all about God's present Age of His Grace through faith in Jesus.
2 Peter 3:1-18
[8] But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day IS with the Lord AS [like] A thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
[9] The Lord is not slack concerning his PROMISE, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
[15] And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation;

At the last trump (yet future) the kingdoms of this world will BECOME the Kingdoms of God and of His Christ, not before.

Revelation 11:15
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

[JLB]

I believe it's referring to this which describes when Jesus was first announced as the Messiah, the Son of God.

Messiah the Prince refers to the Messianic proclamation of the people when Jesus came into the city of Jerusalem, where they cried out Hosanna to the son of David, and laid palm branches down before Him. This event is celebrated even to this day as "Palm Sunday". Hosanna is a Messianic term from psalms 118 that means "save now"! The priest's were angry with the people and asked Jesus to stop them because this was a reference to be made to YHWH.

Psalm 118:21-26
21 I will praise You, For You have answered me, And have become my salvation. 22 The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone. 23 This was the Lord's doing; It is marvelous in our eyes. 24 This is the day the Lord has made; We will rejoice and be glad in it. 25 Save now, I pray, O Lord; O Lord, I pray, send now prosperity. 26 Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord! We have blessed you from the house of the Lord.

9 Then the multitudes who went before and those who followed cried out, saying: "Hosanna to the Son of David! 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!' Hosanna in the highest!" 10 And when He had come into Jerusalem, all the city was moved, saying, "Who is this?" 11 So the multitudes said, "This is Jesus, the prophet from Nazareth of Galilee." Matthew 21:9-11

Jesus said if these people don't praise me the stones will cry out.

This was the prophecy from Daniel being fulfilled and nothing in heaven or on earth was going to stop it from coming to pass!

This event marked the end of the 69th week!

Five days later, after the 69th week, Messiah was "cut off" on Passover.

26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;





JLB

 

[rwb]

At the last trump (yet future) the kingdoms of this world will BECOME the Kingdoms of God and of His Christ, not before.

Revelation 11:15
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

How do you reconcile the sounding of the seventh trumpet as the beginning of one thousand more years after Christ returns, with Rev 10:5-7 where we read "that there should be time no longer: but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished"?

Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Since the sounding of the seventh trumpet is the end of time (a thousand years) given this earth for building the Kingdom of God as the Gospel is proclaimed unto all the world, "the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever", shall be upon the NEW EARTH that shall be after this first earth has passed away. This is obvious because the kingdoms of THIS earth cannot be forever and ever because ALL the kingdoms of this world shall be burned up by the fire of God's wrath that shall come down upon this earth.

2 Peter 3:10 (KJV) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

 

[Earburner]

Let's look at Daniel.


“Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy. v.24

“Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times. v.25

“And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined. v. 26

Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.”
Daniel 9:24-27


So we see there are 70 weeks determined to accomplish some specific things.


“Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.

Verse 25 spells out what will be accomplished in the first 69 weeks.


The first 69 weeks ends with an event called Messiah the Prince.

“Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.

Do you know what this event was in scripture?




JLB

Yes. Counting backwards, 69 weeks x 7= 483 years BC., of when the commandment was given to rebuild Jerusalem.

Since that time period was being fulfilled upto the 1st appearance of Jesus as being the Messiah, "the Lamb of God", on that day of Jesus' baptism (by the other "anointed one"- Zech. 4:14), began the 70th week of 7 years. That scripture reveals that John and Jesus were a joint ministry. John for 6 mos., and Jesus for 3 years.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

How do you reconcile the sounding of the seventh trumpet as the beginning of one thousand more years after Christ returns, with Rev 10:5-7 where we read "that there should be time no longer: but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished"?

Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things Since the sounding of the seventh trumpet is the end of time (a thousand years) given this earth for building the Kingdom of God as the Gospel is proclaimed unto all the world, "the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever", shall be upon the NEW EARTH that shall be after this first earth has passed away. This is obvious because the kingdoms of THIS earth cannot be forever and ever because ALL the kingdoms of this world shall be burned up by the fire of God's wrath that shall come down upon this earth.

2 Peter 3:10 (KJV) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

The last trump marks the end of the reign of the kings of the earth, not the end of time. When the first world was destroyed by water in the days of Noah it was not the end of time, but the end of that world.

2 Peter 3:5-6

King James Version

​

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

At the last trump (yet future) the kingdoms of this world will BECOME the Kingdoms of God and of His Christ, not before.

Revelation 11:15
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Messiah the Prince refers to the Messianic proclamation of the people when Jesus came into the city of Jerusalem, where they cried out Hosanna to the son of David, and laid palm branches down before Him. This event is celebrated even to this day as "Palm Sunday". Hosanna is a Messianic term from psalms 118 that means "save now"! The priest's were angry with the people and asked Jesus to stop them because this was a reference to be made to YHWH.

Psalm 118:21-26
21 I will praise You, For You have answered me, And have become my salvation. 22 The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone. 23 This was the Lord's doing; It is marvelous in our eyes. 24 This is the day the Lord has made; We will rejoice and be glad in it. 25 Save now, I pray, O Lord; O Lord, I pray, send now prosperity. 26 Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord! We have blessed you from the house of the Lord.

9 Then the multitudes who went before and those who followed cried out, saying: "Hosanna to the Son of David! 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!' Hosanna in the highest!" 10 And when He had come into Jerusalem, all the city was moved, saying, "Who is this?" 11 So the multitudes said, "This is Jesus, the prophet from Nazareth of Galilee." Matthew 21:9-11

Jesus said if these people don't praise me the stones will cry out.

This was the prophecy from Daniel being fulfilled and nothing in heaven or on earth was going to stop it from coming to pass!

This event marked the end of the 69th week!

I disagree. What "unto Messiah the prince" means is obviously debatable. Can you acknowledge that? When John revealed that Jesus is "the Son of God" that was in essence a revealing of Him as the Messiah. So, I stand by what I said and fully believe that is what "unto Messiah the Prince" is referring to.

Five days later, after the 69th week, Messiah was "cut off" on Passover.

26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;

What comes after 69? Obviously, 70. So, do you acknowledge that Jesus was cut off during the 70th week then?

Can you tell me how you interpret this verse:

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The last trump marks the end of the reign of the kings of the earth, not the end of time. When the first world was destroyed by water in the days of Noah it was not the end of time, but the end of that world.

2 Peter 3:5-6​

​

King James Version​

​

​

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

At the last trump (yet future) the kingdoms of this world will BECOME the Kingdoms of God and of His Christ, not before.

Revelation 11:15
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Christ reigns over His kingdom now and we are in it.

Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

At His second coming He will deliver the kingdom to God the Father and that is what Revelation 11:15 is referring to because that refers to God the Father reigning with Jesus at that point.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

The end comes at His second coming and not 1,000+ years later as premils believe. It is at His second coming, which will occur at the seventh and last trumpet, that the last enemy, death, will be destroyed, as we can see here:

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

How do you reconcile the sounding of the seventh trumpet as the beginning of one thousand more years after Christ returns, with Rev 10:5-7 where we read "that there should be time no longer: but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished"?

Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Since the sounding of the seventh trumpet is the end of time (a thousand years) given this earth for building the Kingdom of God as the Gospel is proclaimed unto all the world, "the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever", shall be upon the NEW EARTH that shall be after this first earth has passed away. This is obvious because the kingdoms of THIS earth cannot be forever and ever because ALL the kingdoms of this world shall be burned up by the fire of God's wrath that shall come down upon this earth.

2 Peter 3:10 (KJV) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Right. Also, how can someone think that the thousand years begins after the seventh trumpet in light of this:

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

The seventh trumpet signals several things, one of which is "the time of the dead, that they should be judged". When will the dead be judged? AFTER the thousand years, as shown in Revelation 20:11-15. So, the seventh trumpet will sound AFTER the thousands years (and Satan's little season).

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

Christ reigns over His kingdom now and we are in it.

Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

At His second coming He will deliver the kingdom to God the Father and that is what Revelation 11:15 is referring to because that refers to God the Father reigning with Jesus at that point.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

The end comes at His second coming and not 1,000+ years later as premils believe. It is at His second coming, which will occur at the seventh and last trumpet, that the last enemy, death, will be destroyed, as we can see here:

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

Why is it you “Amils” cannot understand my speech? I am not talking about Christ reigning in His individual saints, but the time WHEN Christs Kingdom shall reign on the Earth.

John 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

At the last trump (yet future) the kingdoms of this world will BECOME the Kingdoms of God and of His Christ, not before.

Revelation 11:15
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Why is it you “Amils” cannot understand my speech?

Who said we can't? I understand it just fine and was showing how your understanding is flawed. I was showing what Revelation 11:15 implies by using scripture to intepret scripture. Are you familiar with that concept?

I am not talking about Christ reigning in His individual saints, but the time WHEN Christs Kingdom shall reign on the Earth.

That will never happen. Tell me how that can happen when Revelation 11:15 indicates that the time when Jesus will deliver the kingdom to the Father occurs at the seventh trumpet? According to Paul, the end comes at that point, not the beginning of an earthly reign. When Jesus delivers the kingdom to the Father the Father will reign with Jesus in the new heavens and new earth for eternity.

Tell me how that can happen when the last enemy, death, will be destroyed when Jesus returns at the seventh and last trumpet (1 Cor 15:50-54)?

Tell me how that can happen when the time of the dead being judged occurs at the seventh trumpet when we know that the dead are judged after the thousand years (Rev 20:11-15)?

John 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

At the last trump (yet future) the kingdoms of this world will BECOME the Kingdoms of God and of His Christ, not before.

Revelation 11:15
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

I'm not saying otherwise. YOU are the one who isn't making any effort to understand what I'm saying. What do you think that means for the kingdoms of this world to become the kingdoms of God the Father and of Christ? Don't you know that Jesus will be destroying the kingdoms of the world when He returns?

Psalm 2:7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

The inheritance of the kingdoms of the world will not be in order to rule over them for a thousand years, but rather will be so that He can destroy them once and for all and rid the world of sin and death forever so that we can inherit the renewed (new) earth forever.

 

[Earburner]

How do you reconcile the sounding of the seventh trumpet as the beginning of one thousand more years after Christ returns, with Rev 10:5-7 where we read "that there should be time no longer: but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished"?

Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Since the sounding of the seventh trumpet is the end of time (a thousand years) given this earth for building the Kingdom of God as the Gospel is proclaimed unto all the world, "the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever", shall be upon the NEW EARTH that shall be after this first earth has passed away. This is obvious because the kingdoms of THIS earth cannot be forever and ever because ALL the kingdoms of this world shall be burned up by the fire of God's wrath that shall come down upon this earth.

2 Peter 3:10 (KJV) But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

If you can discern the parables about the "strong man" and He who is "the Stronger," then you would know that ever since Jesus' First appearance, He has been "coming" as a thief in every generation, stealing away the "goods" from satan.
Therefore, for the past 2024 years, Jesus HAS BEEN filling up the KoG, from out of every kingdom of man, that have come and gone, down through the generations.

In the Day of Jesus' Glorious return, 1 Thes. 4:13-18, Paul says in [14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

Who said we can't? I understand it just fine and was showing how your understanding is flawed. I was showing what Revelation 11:15 implies by using scripture to intepret scripture. Are you familiar with that concept?

You are using scripture out or order that does not agree with the timing of other scriptures. Their is no contradiction in the scriptures, it is the timing of events the “Amil” can’t piece together or understand.

That will never happen. Tell me how that can happen when Revelation 11:15 indicates that the time when Jesus will deliver the kingdom to the Father occurs at the seventh trumpet?

It says the kingdoms of this world are now BECOME the kingdoms of God and His Christ. Why can’t you admit that? Because you would rather cling to your false doctrine than the TRUTH!

According to Paul, the end comes at that point, not the beginning of an earthly reign. When Jesus delivers the kingdom to the Father the Father will reign with Jesus in the new heavens and new earth for eternity.

Tell me how that can happen when the last enemy, death, will be destroyed when Jesus returns at the seventh and last trumpet (1 Cor 15:50-54)?

Paul is talking about the resurrection at the last day at the last trump when the saints have been given gloried bodies. This event happens BEFORE the saints reign on earth with Christ with a rod of iron.

Tell me how that can happen when the time of the dead being judged occurs at the seventh trumpet when we know that the dead are judged after the thousand years (Rev 20:11-15)?

The first resurrection is to the saints, those who are of the first resurrection shall not taste of the second death. The rest of the dead are not resurrected until AFTER the thousand year reign of Christ on earth.

I'm not saying otherwise. YOU are the one who isn't making any effort to understand what I'm saying.

I fully understand, but you are in error mainly because you do not understand the timing of events.

What do you think that means for the kingdoms of this world to become the kingdoms of God the Father and of Christ? Don't you know that Jesus will be destroying the kingdoms of the world when He returns?

Yes but, like I showed you before “a few shall be left” on earth to repopulate the earth during the thousand year reign.

Psalm 2:7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

The inheritance of the kingdoms of the world will not be in order to rule over them for a thousand years, but rather will be so that He can destroy them once and for all and rid the world of sin and death forever so that we can inherit the renewed (new) earth forever.

That time of ruling the nations with a rod of iron is during the thousand year reign. This is when Christ puts all enemies under his feet, the last enemy to be destroyed is death AFTER the thousand year reign of Christ on earth.

Revelation 2:26-27
King James Version
​

26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Did you catch that? See the timing of WHEN the saints shall rule the nations with a rod of iron? This does not happen until AFTER the end!

The words of God agree with the timing, the problem is your false doctrines timing does not agree with the words of God.

 

[JLB]

Yes. Counting backwards, 69 weeks x 7= 483 years BC., of when the commandment was given to rebuild Jerusalem.

Since that time period was being fulfilled upto the 1st appearance of Jesus as being the Messiah, "the Lamb of God", on that day of Jesus' baptism (by the other "anointed one"- Zech. 4:14), began the 70th week of 7 years. That scripture reveals that John and Jesus were a joint ministry. John for 6 mos., and Jesus for 3 years.

Let's continue by gleaning our understanding from Daniel's word.

“And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined. Daniel 9:26


At this point we see that the first 69 weeks were fulfilled at "Messiah the Prince", which occurred on what has come to be known as "Palm Sunday".

After that, Jesus was "cut off" but not for Himself.
We all know Jesus died for the sins of the world.

Also, in verse 26 is another time marker which is -

And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.

This occurred in 70 AD.

So now we have two time markers in verse 26, Messiah "cut off" (33 AD) and the city and sanctuary destroyed, (70 AD),
but the 70th week has not yet begun, which we see occurs in verse 27.


Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.” Daniel 9:27


Do you understand who the "he" is in verse 27?

 

[JLB]

I disagree. What "unto Messiah the prince" means is obviously debatable. Can you acknowledge that? When John revealed that Jesus is "the Son of God" that was in essence a revealing of Him as the Messiah. So, I stand by what I said and fully believe that is what "unto Messiah the Prince" is referring to.

Messiah the Prince refers to Jesus Christ.

I think we both agree on this.

Messiah the Prince refers to the Messianic proclamation of the people when Jesus came into the city of Jerusalem, where they cried out Hosanna to the son of David, and laid palm branches down before Him. This event is celebrated even to this day as "Palm Sunday". Hosanna is a Messianic term from psalms 118 that means "save now"! The priest's were angry with the people and asked Jesus to stop them because this was a reference to be made to YHWH.


You do understand that Jesus is YHWH, The LORD God of Israel? Right?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You are using scripture out or order that does not agree with the timing of other scriptures. Their is no contradiction in the scriptures, it is the timing of events the “Amil” can’t piece together or understand.

No, I am not. It does you no good to lie about what I'm doing. It's a bad look for you.

Tell me, does the seventh trumpet signal "the time of the dead, that they should be judged?

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever....18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Will any of the things listed here not actually happen right after the seventh trumpet sounds? I know you believe the kingdoms of the world will become the kingdoms of God the Father and His Christ at that time. Will God's wrath not come at that time? Will His servants/saints not be rewarded at that time? Will He not "destroy them which destroy the earth" at that time" Will the dead not be judged at that time? All those things will happen at that time, right? So, when are the dead judged? Before or after the thousand years?

It says the kingdoms of this world are now BECOME the kingdoms of God and His Christ. Why can’t you admit that? Because you would rather cling to your false doctrine than the TRUTH!

I am not denying that. But, if you read Psalm 2:7-9 you can see what they do with the kingdoms of the world. That's what YOU are not admitting.

What does this say that He will do with the heathen and the kingdoms of this evil world?

Psalm 2:7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

He will break/destroy them! Why can't you admit that?

Paul is talking about the resurrection at the last day at the last trump when the saints have been given gloried bodies. This event happens BEFORE the saints reign on earth with Christ with a rod of iron.

Your understanding of what it means to reign with a rod of iron is completely flawed. Psalm 2:7-9 and Revelation 19:15 make it clear that a rod of iron symbolically represents Christ destroying His enemies, not ruling over them as you imagine.

The first resurrection is to the saints, those who are of the first resurrection shall not taste of the second death. The rest of the dead are not resurrected until AFTER the thousand year reign of Christ on earth.

Is a bodily resurrection necessary in order for the second death to not have power over someone? Does the second death have any power over you and I right now? No. Does the second death have any power over the dead in Christ right now? No. What does that tell you about the timing of having part in the first resurrection? And should we just ignore the fact that scripture teaches that Christ's resurrection is the first resurrection (Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20, Col 1:18, Rev 1:5)? That means having part in the first resurrection has to do with having part in His resurrection.

I fully understand, but you are in error mainly because you do not understand the timing of events.

I understand the timing of events very well. I understand that it very clearly indicates that the dead will be judged right after the seventh trumpet sounds (Rev 11:18) and that the dead are judged AFTER the thousand years (Revelation 20:11-15).

Yes but, like I showed you before “a few shall be left” on earth to repopulate the earth during the thousand year reign.

That is your assumption that it's talking about a few mortals being left on the earth, but that doesn't fit what is taught in the rest of scripture. The idea of any mortals surviving what is described in 2 Peter 3:10-12 is absolutely ludicrous. The few who survive will be the few who are chosen of the many who are called to salvation (Matt 22:14), and they will be changed to have immortal bodies at that time when the seventh and last trumpet sounds (1 Cor 15:50-54). They will inherit the new heavens and new earth that Peter said we are looking for (2 Peter 3:13). It should make you wonder why Peter said we are looking for that instead of an earthly kingdom in according with the second coming of Christ.

That time of ruling the nations with a rod of iron is during the thousand year reign. This is when Christ puts all enemies under his feet, the last enemy to be destroyed is death AFTER the thousand year reign of Christ on earth.

Revelation 2:26-27​

King James Version​

​

26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Did you catch that? See the timing of WHEN the saints shall rule the nations with a rod of iron? This does not happen until AFTER the end!

As I showed, your understanding of what it means to rule with a rod of iron is flawed. A rod of iron is used for DESTRUCTION, as Psalm 2:7-9 indicates. And, as the following indicates as well:

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

This verse associates ruling with a rod of iron with smiting the nations and treading them in the winepress and fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. You are not even trying to look at the context of what ruling with a rod of iron means. You are allowing your premillennial bias to dictate how you interpret these verses.

The words of God agree with the timing, the problem is your false doctrines timing does not agree with the words of God.

What is the timing of the dead being judged? Do you deny that it will occur just after the sounding of the seventh trumpet as Revelation 11:15-18 indicates? When are the dead judged in relation to the thousand years?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Messiah the Prince refers to Jesus Christ.

I think we both agree on this.

Goodness gracious. Of course I agree with that.

Messiah the Prince refers to the Messianic proclamation of the people when Jesus came into the city of Jerusalem, where they cried out Hosanna to the son of David, and laid palm branches down before Him. This event is celebrated even to this day as "Palm Sunday". Hosanna is a Messianic term from psalms 118 that means "save now"! The priest's were angry with the people and asked Jesus to stop them because this was a reference to be made to YHWH.


You do understand that Jesus is YHWH, The LORD God of Israel? Right?

Don't talk to me like I'm some child who just started reading the Bible. I have been studying scripture in depth for many years. I understand that is your opinion and why you see it as you do. But, when John the Baptist called Jesus "The Lamb of God" and "The Son of God" (John 1:29-34) that was a declaration of Jesus being the Messiah. So, I fully believe that is what "unto Messiah the prince" is talking about.

Can you tell me how you interpret this verse:

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.