When are the dead and living in Christ caught up to the Lord?

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Spiritual Israelite

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I have already written that I accept Paul's statement that Christ was the "First-fruits". What I do NOT accept is your own personal definition of what that "First-fruits" title actually means. I'm not contradicting Paul. Paul himself wrote about the church having the "First-fruits" among them at that time (Romans 8:23).
Paul gave the order of bodily resurrections unto bodily immortality in 1 Corinthians 15:20-23. He said Christ's was first and next in order are those who belong to Christ at His second coming. That's it. If you don't accept that then that's on you. We're just repeating ourselves at this point, so I have nothing more to say about this. You did NOTHING to show that the 144,000 were bodily resurrected and Paul made no mention of any resurrections besides Christ's resurrection itself and the resurrection of those who belong to Him at His second coming when giving the order of resurrections. I'm siding with Paul and scripture on this and against you. End of story.
 
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rwb

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Absolutely false. There is not a shred of scripture proof that anybody raised from the dead in scripture ever died again.

The onus is on you! You're the one claiming they are immortal! If they were resurrected immortal (1) they would still be alive on earth today (2) Paul would not have written that faithful saints shall be changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible when the last trumpet sounds. That won't happen before an hour that is coming.
 
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rwb

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This goes totally contrary to the scripture's stated truth that in the bodily-resurrection process, those "children of the resurrection" never CAN die again and become "equal to the angels" in that respect (Luke 20:35-36). It just isn't possible for humanity to die twice, once they are bodily resurrected from the grave.

The children of the resurrection Christ speak of, are those who have part in the first resurrection life through the resurrection of Christ. They are the only ones who never die again, because those having part in the first resurrection have overcome the second death (LOF). Those "children of the resurrection" are not physically alive in heaven! They are as the angels of God in heaven (Mt 22:30; Mk 12:25). Like the angels alive in heaven the spiritual body of Christ. Because the children of the resurrection have eternal spiritual life through Christ. We know this life is not physical, but spiritual because they are as the angels of God in heaven and never die. "For He is not a God of the dead, but of the living"! Abraham, Isaac and Jacob since the resurrection and ascension of Christ, are now spiritually alive in heaven. Otherwise He would be God of dead bodies because Abraham, Iassac and Jacob have long ago died! But Christ gives us assurance that these physically dead saints are not among the dead because they are among the living spiritual body of Christ in heaven.

Luke 20:37-38 (KJV) Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.
 

The Light

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Jesus returns at the 7th Trump, Daniel 12:1-2 & John 5:28-29 represents this event

You will "Closely Note" that the book of life is opened in Daniel 12:1 in the "Final Judgement" The End

Your claim this represents the 6th seal is 100% "FALSE"
You will "Closely Note" that the time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time is the great tribulation. The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal and is marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.

So Daniel 12 occurs at the 6th seal. There is absolutely no question.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Daniel 12:1-2KJV
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Same Book of life is opened as seen in Daniel 12:1 & Revelation 20:12 (The End)

Revelation 20:12KJV
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Same book. But many are raised at the 6th seal and all that remain in the ground will be raised after the 7th trumpet.

Two different comings of Jesus.
 

honeycomb

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If we have no part in the resurrection life of Christ (who is the FIRST RESURRECTION) before we physically die, and we know that physical flesh and blood shall not inherit the Kingdom of God, how are the saints alive in heaven after physical death? It's true those who physically die in Christ, do go to heaven ALIVE after death. What body do they ascend to heaven in, since their flesh returns to dust?

Paul says when our body (natural/physical) dies, it is raised a spiritual body, because mankind has both a natural body of flesh & bone, and a spiritual body within. That within mankind that is spirit will either return to God eternally alive through the Spirit of Christ within. or it will return to God in what Scripture tells us is darkness and silence, without life.

1 Corinthians 15:44 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The first resurrection that man MUST have part in before physical death comes through the Spirit of Christ in us when we are born again. That's what Paul means when he writes that mankind apart from Christ is "dead in trespasses and sins." For that reason, Christ says, "Ye must be born again!" Once we are born again through Christ's Spirit in us, that spiritual part within man has everlasting/eternal life. Even though our physical body is destined to die, our spirit through the Holy Spirit within shall NEVER die. That's why as a spiritual body man of faith ascends to heaven after our body breathes its last.

Then in the hour coming when the last trumpet sounds, the spiritual body in heaven shall return with the Lord to give our resurrected body immortal & incorruptible life that is once again a whole person God created mankind to be.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 (KJV) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
I Corinthians 15:35-53 is an excellent teaching resource on this topic. When our physical body dies, we ascend to heaven in our spiritual form. If we are still living in our flesh bodies when Christ returns, we will be changed into spiritual bodies (1 Cor. 15:52). We need to keep in mind that we are speaking of bodies here, not souls. That is not to say we shall have achieved immortality; we will just have been given a spiritual body that is incorruptible but not necessarily immortal.

Some of us will be given eternal life/immortality at Christ's return (The First Resurrection), while others will have to wait until after the 1000-year Millennium, when at the Great White Throne Judgment, will either be granted eternal life/immortality (The Second Resurrection) or eternal death (the Second Death).

Hope this makes sense.


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rwb

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I Corinthians 15:35-53 is an excellent teaching resource on this topic. When our physical body dies, we ascend to heaven in our spiritual form. If we are still living in our flesh bodies when Christ returns, we will be changed into spiritual bodies (1 Cor. 15:52). We need to keep in mind that we are speaking of bodies here, not souls. That is not to say we shall have achieved immortality; we will just have been given a spiritual body that is incorruptible but not necessarily immortal.

Some of us will be given eternal life/immortality at Christ's return (The First Resurrection), while others will have to wait until after the 1000-year Millennium, when at the Great White Throne Judgment, will either be granted eternal life/immortality (The Second Resurrection) or eternal death (the Second Death).

Hope this makes sense.


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Immortality and incorruptibility cannot be separated. When we are bodily resurrected if we've physically died, or raised up if still alive, to meet the Lord in the air, our physical body shall be changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible, fit for everlasting life on the new earth. All who have partaken of Christ's resurrection life before physical death, not "some of us", but ALL of us together when the last/seventh trumpet sounds that time given this earth for mankind to turn to Christ for eternal life, shall be no longer. There won't be another one thousand years of time given this earth after the final trumpet sounds that Christ has come again.

We won't be changed into a spiritual body when Christ returns! Our spirit, that after death is alive through the Spirit of Christ within us, shall return from heaven with the Lord to give our mortal & corruptible physical body life made immortal & incorruptible.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 (KJV) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

The first resurrection has already come! It is the resurrection of Christ from death to life again that man must have part in before they die to be saved and overcome the second death (LOF). This we do when we are born again through Christ's Spirit. When we are born again our spirit has eternal life that cannot die. Before being born again we were spiritually "dead in trespasses and sins." For that reason, Christ tells us "Ye must be born again".
 
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rwb

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Revelation 6:12-13 is referring to the Antichrist (Satan).

Hint: UNTIMELY FIGS

Yikes! Noooooo

This is what you consider a worthy answer??? Really not interested in your opinions!
 

Truth7t7

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Mat 24.
" before the flood"
Noah gathered
One taken/left
Peacetime, commerce, normal life
Watch and be ready before the flood.

Lot gathered before the judgement.

All rapture verses are peacetime, commerce, normal life.
Your deal has the opposite setting and actually denies Jesus's words of the 2 gatherings of mat 24.

So I just debunked your theory and error.
I Disagree, You haven't debunked a thing
 

Truth7t7

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Two different comings of Jesus.
There is "One" future coming ofJesus Christ in the heavens

There is one future final judgement of all, this takes place at the second coming on the last day (The End)
 

Spiritual Israelite

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I Corinthians 15:35-53 is an excellent teaching resource on this topic. When our physical body dies, we ascend to heaven in our spiritual form. If we are still living in our flesh bodies when Christ returns, we will be changed into spiritual bodies (1 Cor. 15:52). We need to keep in mind that we are speaking of bodies here, not souls. That is not to say we shall have achieved immortality; we will just have been given a spiritual body that is incorruptible but not necessarily immortal.

Some of us will be given eternal life/immortality at Christ's return (The First Resurrection), while others will have to wait until after the 1000-year Millennium, when at the Great White Throne Judgment, will either be granted eternal life/immortality (The Second Resurrection) or eternal death (the Second Death).

Hope this makes sense.


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That made no sense at all. An incorruptible body is also an immortal body. An incorruptible body can't die.

Definitions of the words incorruptible and immortal:

incorruptible: not subject to death or decay; everlasting.

immortal: living forever; never dying or decaying.
 
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The Light

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There is "One" future coming ofJesus Christ in the heavens

There is one future final judgement of all, this takes place at the second coming on the last day (The End)
He comes for the dead in Christ as they are raised first. The spring barley harvest.
He returns for the alive that remained. The summer wheat harvest.
He comes for the 144,000 first fruits that are redeemed from the earth
He comes for the harvest at the 6th seal. The fall fruit harvest.
He comes with the armies of heaven.
 

Truth7t7

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He comes for the dead in Christ as they are raised first. The spring barley harvest.
He returns for the alive that remained. The summer wheat harvest.
He comes for the 144,000 first fruits that are redeemed from the earth
He comes for the harvest at the 6th seal. The fall fruit harvest.
He comes with the armies of heaven.
IMHO your explanation above sorta sounds like a mixed up Jehovahs Witness teaching, as this false teaching has Jesus returning "Multiple Times" wrong

God's word speaks very clear, Jesus will return a "Second Time" not a 3rd, 4th, or 5th time as you falsely teach

Hebrews 9:28KJV
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
 
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The Light

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IMHO your explanation above sorta sounds like a mixed up Jehovahs Witness teaching, as this false teaching has Jesus returning "Multiple Times" wrong
Have no clue what they teach about the coming of Jesus.

Obviously, they are wrong about the 144,000 among other things

God's word speaks very clear, Jesus will return a "Second Time" not a 3rd, 4th, or 5th time as you falsely teach
Obviously, the Lord comes more than once more.

1 Thes 5
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

Luke 17
22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.
24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

Matthew 24
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Hebrews 9:28KJV
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Obviously, the foolish virgins are not looking for Him to appear so He will not appear to them when He comes.
 

3 Resurrections

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God's word speaks very clear, Jesus will return a "Second Time" not a 3rd, 4th, or 5th time as you falsely teach

Hebrews 9:28KJV
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
While I don't go as far as the @The Light does with those many listed resurrection events in comment #331, the Hebrews 9:28 KJV verse does NOT limit the coming appearance of Christ to ONLY two occasions. It only speaks of the second coming in particular, but it neither proves nor disproves another return after that. This verse cannot be used as a proof text for either position.

Just like scripture speaking of "the second miracle which Jesus did..." did not limit the miracles of Jesus to ONLY two of them.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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While I don't go as far as the @The Light does with those many listed resurrection events in comment #331, the Hebrews 9:28 KJV verse does NOT limit the coming appearance of Christ to ONLY two occasions. It only speaks of the second coming in particular, but it neither proves nor disproves another return after that. This verse cannot be used as a proof text for either position.

Just like scripture speaking of "the second miracle which Jesus did..." did not limit the miracles of Jesus to ONLY two of them.
It never mentions Him coming a third time. That is complete nonsense. The following also only shows Him coming back once and it will be in the same manner as He ascended to heaven:

Acts 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
 

3 Resurrections

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The onus is on you! You're the one claiming they are immortal! If they were resurrected immortal (1) they would still be alive on earth today
It isn't necessary for those bodily-resurrected individuals to be located on this earth in order to be alive in those immortal bodies. The destined inheritance that all believers are to experience is to be presented faultless before the presence of God's glory with exceeding joy (Jude 24). It isn't enough for a believer who has died just to get above ground in a glorified body made immortal. The very purpose for changing those mortal remains into a glorified body form is to fit it for a heavenly abode with our Creator.

Paul would not have written that faithful saints shall be changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible when the last trumpet sounds. That won't happen before an hour that is coming.
Paul himself told Felix in Acts 24:15 that "there is ABOUT TO BE a resurrection of the dead, both the just and the unjust". Paul also told Timothy in 2 Timothy 4:1, "I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who is ABOUT TO JUDGE the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom..." James 5:8-9 also wrote concerning Christ's return , "Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord has drawn near...the judge standeth before the door." These were all warnings of Christ's imminent return in that first century, in which the bodies of the dead believers would be changed to the immortal at the last, seventh trumpet that Revelation wrote about.

You and I are not waiting for that last, seventh trumpet, which was already blown back in AD 70; we are waiting for the feast of trumpets in the seventh month of a year in our future, at the last, 3rd resurrection harvest. The rituals under Mosaic law provides the symbolic pattern for these three separate "harvests" of the saints' bodies out of the grave.

It never mentions Him coming a third time. That is complete nonsense. The following also only shows Him coming back once and it will be in the same manner as He ascended to heaven:
Of course Christ would bodily come in the same manner in which He left at His ascension. That's a given. But scripture speaks of the continued flow of human history AFTER Christ's second coming return. Zechariah 14:16 wrote about the "year to year" passage of time AFTER Christ's second coming to the Mount of Olives in Zech. 14:4-5. Also, Matthew 24:21-31 said that the "Great Tribulation" (which was followed by Christ's return "immediately AFTER those days"), would never be duplicated at any time in history following that period of disasters. That means regular periods of tribulation would still be occurring over the span of human history on this planet after Christ's return, but with none that would ever duplicate the former "Great Tribulation" in the distant past.

With ordinary human history continuing AFTER Christ's second coming, people are still being born and dying, all of whom must also stand before the judgment seat of Christ to receive the things done in their body, as required in 2 Cor. 5:10. This requires a third coming and a third resurrection event to wrap up human history at the final culmination point.

Christ also spoke a parable in Luke 12:38 comparing His coming to a returning lord who would come "in the second watch AND the third watch". If that lord found his servants faithfully watching for His return on BOTH occasions, all of those servants would be blessed.

Christ predicted He would return before some of those He was speaking to in Matt. 16:27-28 had yet tasted of death. That required a first-century return in that generation - the "second watch" return, if you will. You and I are now waiting patiently for Christ's return "in the THIRD watch". If we are faithful in our service to our Lord, we will be blessed servants indeed, as Christ promised.
 
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honeycomb

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No place in the holy Bible is a "Pre-Trib" rapture mentioned
Amen! And yet the Living Word has foretold told us:

Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?

- 2 Thessalonians 2:3-5 (NKJV)


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3 Resurrections

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Paul gave the order of bodily resurrections unto bodily immortality in 1 Corinthians 15:20-23. He said Christ's was first and next in order are those who belong to Christ at His second coming. That's it.
No, that is not it. You are misquoting Paul. Paul did not write "Christ the first". He wrote "Christ the First-fruits". These words do not carry quite the same meaning. This is a Jewish term referring to the "First-fruits" of the first barley harvest in Israel during Passover week in Leviticus 23:10-12. At that time, a handful of the first-ripened barley harvest - "the First-fruits of your harvest" - was brought to the temple and waved by the priest before the Lord.

"And ye shall offer that day when ye wave the sheaf an he lamb without blemish of the first year for a burnt offering unto the Lord."

This OT ritual was meant to symbolize Christ our Passover Lamb being offered that same day as the handful of harvested "First-fruits" barley. This ritual in its entirety was meant to serve as a symbol of what "Christ the First-fruits" would do on the same day that He was resurrected as the "First-fruits" . On that same day, He resurrected the many Matthew 27:52-53 saints - the 144,000 First-fruits - and these stood together with Him in Jerusalem on Mount Zion, the temple location.
 

rebuilder 454

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There is "One" future coming ofJesus Christ in the heavens

There is one future final judgement of all, this takes place at the second coming on the last day (The End)
Mat 24 says different.
Again...that magnificently debunks any hope of one coming.
A bonus is Rev 14.
You have no standing.