I am more and more convinced it all happens on the Last Day at Christ’s future Advent.
Just as in the days of a Noah.
No secret rapture.
Just as in the days of a Noah.
No secret rapture.
When are the dead and living in Christ caught up to the Lord?
- Thread starter Stewardofthemystery
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tailgator
Well-Known Member
The first resurection is of Israel.
And the Israelis who are murdered for their testimony of Christ and for the word of God ,and who do not worship the Israeli government and it's kingdom or recieve it's mark.,shall reign with Christ over the nations in the Lords land.
Not so. The resurrection/judgment are tied together. It obviously takes one to allow the other. For there to be one general judgment then Scripture must also teach one general resurrection. This I believe Scripture does in several places.
I believe there is one physical resurrection day that sees one all-encompassing raising of mankind. However, within that one resurrection there are two distinct categories of rising embodied: (1) unto “life,” and (2) unto “damnation.” Notwithstanding, there is an undoubted order to the general resurrection; the dead in Christ will rise first, etc.
It is at this great concluding event that both the righteous and the wicked will be raised to face the great final judgment. Notwithstanding, there are two aspects to the one all-consummating resurrection day.
Jesus said in Matthew 12:41-42, “The men of Nineveh shall rise [Gr. anistemi Strong’s 450] in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here. The queen of the south shall rise up [Gr. egeiro Strong’s 1453] in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.”
The righteous Old Testament Gentile saint – the queen of the south – is raised at the same time as the wicked Pharisees of Christ’s day to stand before the same judgment seat of Christ.
This is further impressed in the parallel portion in Luke 11:31, only with an additional example, saying, “The queen of the south shall rise up [Gr. egeiro Strong’s 1453] in the judgment with the men of this generation, and condemn them: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here. The men of Nineveh shall rise up [Gr. anistemi Strong’s 450] in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.”
Here, the two main words used throughout the New Testament for resurrection are applied to the general resurrection that occurs on Judgment Day when the Old Testament time saints and wicked join the New Testament saints and wicked at the judgment. Remember the queen of the south and Nineveh are presented as Old Testament Gentile saints that will “rise up in the judgment with” the wicked unbelieving Jews of Christ’s day. There is no prolonged parenthesis period separating the resurrection of the wicked dead and the resurrection of the righteous dead. They both “rise up” at the same time. The Old Testament Gentile city of Nineveh is shown to “rise up in the judgment with” (or meta) the religious Jewish world of Christ’s day and “condemn it.” The Greek word meta (3326) is described in Strong’s concordance as “a primary preposition (often used adverbially); properly, denoting accompaniment; ‘amid’.”
Jesus explains in John 5:28-29, “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
Jesus taught a singular time (or hour) that is coming when all of the dead will be raised. Please notice “the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth.” We are not just looking at the righteous, we are looking at both the righteous and the wicked. The passage goes on to confirm: “they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” All that are in the graves will come forth when He comes. The righteous will be ushered into His glorious kingdom, the wicked shall be damned for all eternity in the lake of fire.
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."
- 1 Corinthians 15:52-54
Two separate things occur when Jesus Christ returns at the last trumpet. The first, which applies to everyone, both the good and the bad, is that we are ALL "raised up" or "changed" from flesh bodies to spiritual bodies—from corruptible flesh to incorruptible spirit. The second thing that occurs is called the First Resurrection to eternal life. This First Resurrection is when the saints, who at the 7th trump have been changed into their spiritual bodies, are "raised" or "resurrected" to the status of IMMORTALITY. We need to understand the difference between the resurrection of the body and the resurrection of the soul to immortality. Not everyone will go through the First Resurrection (That’s why we have the Millennium.)
PEtRA
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Jesus is the firstfruits of the first resurrection.
Main harvest follows firstfruits. ( the rapture)
The innumerable number in heaven are part of the first resurrection.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Noah was gathered BEFORE the flood
Mat 24
" before the flood....."
1) Noah gathered
2) one taken/one left
3) watch and be ready.
4) watch and be ready in setting of commerce, peacetime, and normal life.
In fact all rapture verses, are peacetime, and commerce.
Lot was gathered pre judgement as was Noah.
Also there is no protection for gentile believers. A church members refusing the mark are killed
Only pretrib rapture fits.
Not so! Read what it says, not what you have been taught:
Genesis 7:11-13: "the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights. In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark."
Not only are you foisting something upon the text in Genesis that it does not say, you refuse to acknowledge the words of Jesus Christ on this matter that reinforce what happened. Do you realize that the NT is the fuller revelation? Do you not see that Christ had a full knowledge of what occurred? You have been stepping around His words throughout the course of this thread.
What is more, what has 7 days in Noah's day to do with 7 years in your so-called future tribulation? Do you think Noah's world went through a 7-day great tribulation before the flood came?
Whatever angle you look at it, your reasoning doesn't add up here. You're going to have to come clean. You're going to have to put your cards on the table. What are you trying to say? Why will you not address the explicit and irrefutable words of Jesus on this subject.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
According to Paul, the resurrection that occurs at Christ's return would be a second resurrection, not the first. Christ's resurrection itself was the first unto bodily immortality.
1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
So, there it is. The order of resurrections unto bodily immortality is Christ's first and then those who are His at His second coming. That's it. That's the first and second resurrection. Having part in the first resurrection is to spiritually have part in Christ' resurrection (Romans 6:1-4, Col 2:12-13, Eph 2:4-6, etc.).
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Notice here that having part in the first resurrection results in the second death (lake of fire - Rev 20:14-15) having no power over you. At what point is it that the second death has no power over someone? Not until they are bodily resurrected? No. Does the second death have power over us right now? It absolutely does not because it's only those who are unsaved who end up in the lake of fire. Does the second death have any power over the souls of the dead in Christ right now? No. So, what does that tell you about the timing of Revelation 20:6?
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
So, if the rapture occurs at the same time as Christ's wrath occurs at His second coming, who does that leave to populate an earthly millennial kingdom, keeping in mind that we will all have immortal bodies? How many unbelievers survived the flood? None, right? Jesus said it will be just like that at His second coming.
Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Yes…and to add, all InChrist since His Resurrection are those who take part in the first resurrection.
We were all raised ‘in Christ’ to Life. In fact, we died, we were raised and we ascended with and In Him.
He placed us into Himself and so His history became ours. Now, we have this Treasure in earthen vessels and because flesh and blood or the perishable cannot inherit the Kingdom…we will be changed. Corruption into incorruptible. Praise the Lord!
We were all raised ‘in Christ’ to Life. In fact, we died, we were raised and we ascended with and In Him.
He placed us into Himself and so His history became ours. Now, we have this Treasure in earthen vessels and because flesh and blood or the perishable cannot inherit the Kingdom…we will be changed. Corruption into incorruptible. Praise the Lord!
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Exactly! What is that to do with some imaginary future seven-year tribulation? How does that even support that?
This is what happens when scripture is wrested into inflexible presuppositions.
Dispensationalism, unfortunately must do this to attempt cohesion.
At many points, the structure collapses.
Dispensationalism, unfortunately must do this to attempt cohesion.
At many points, the structure collapses.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
It doesn't support it in any way, shape or form. I can't figure out what makes less sense. 1. Thinking that Noah entered the ark 7 days before the flood came despite Jesus saying the flood came the day Noah entered the ark, which shows a lack of trust that Jesus knew what He was talking about (which is insane). Or 2. Thinking that Noah entering the ark 7 days before the flood is somehow equivalent to the rapture occurring 7 years before Christ returns. Both ideas are completely nonsensical.
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Do they think there was a 7-day tribulation outside the ark before the flood? What has 7 days to do with some 7 years trib at the end? Where even do they find their 7 year tribulation in the Word of God? Nowhere! It is all one elaborate religious scam.
The Light
Well-Known Member
How convenient. You left off an important part of the scripture. Why not quote the whole sentence? It's because you are attempting to lead believers astray. Here's the rest of the sentence...........
11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
The same day the fountains of deep were broken up.................occurred the SAME DAY Noah was 600 years 2 months and 17 days old.
Additionally, we have a new paragraph for the next sentence.
Genesis 7
In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;
14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.
Noah, his family and ALL the animals entered the ark on the self same day. That day was the day they were told to enter which was the first day. God shut the door of the ark at the end of the first day. And it came to pass after 7 days that the flood was upon the earth.
Genesis 7
9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.
10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.
Nothing you quote agrees with the written Word of God.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
LOL! Maybe? You can never tell what they might believe. And did people just stop eating and drinking 7 days before the flood came. Jesus said people were doing their normal actitivities like eating and drinking and marrying until the flood came. If they stopped eating and drinking 7 days before the flood came then they would have all died even before the flood came! These pretribs just don't think about how ludicrous their beliefs really are.
Absolutely nothing, of course. But in pretrib, anything is possible since it's all based on their imaginations. Whatever they can imagine can be true in the pretrib doctrine.
They think it's in Daniel 9 and is the 70th week, but nowhere does that speak of a 7 year tribulation. Not even close. It speaks of the destruction of the city and the sanctuary. But no 7 year tribulation. Again, their belief is based on their imaginations and not on scripture.
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