When are the dead and living in Christ caught up to the Lord?

[The Light]

There is nothing "in" the 7th Seal.

The Trumpets are sent out after the half an hour of silence.

The seventh seal contains the complete Day of the Lord which is 1 year of vengeance.

The Seals deal with the church, not Israel.

The Church is in heaven before the seals are opened. The 70th week of Daniel is about the people of Daniel.

Daniel 9
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

The Trumpets deal with Israel, not the church.

The trumpets deal with neither. The Church is in heaven before the seals are opened. The seed of the woman, the twelve tribes across the earth are in heaven when Jesus comes at the 6th seal.

Only the nation of Israel, those that fled to a place of the protection, the two witnesses and the unrighteous will be on earth during the trumpets.

The Seals have nothing to do with Jacob nor Israel. You may as well write your own version of Revelation, because you're sure not understanding John's writings at all.

Please. Rev 3, 4, and 5 shows the Church will be in heaven before the seals are opened.

The Millennium will not even start until the 7th Trumpet stops.

ok

The nations that exist on the earth are the wheat harvested during the 7 Thunders. They are the redeemed who represent all nations during the Millennium Kingdom. They all send a yearly delegation to the Temple and throne of Jesus.

There is no harvest during the 7 thunders and you can provide no scriptures that even give a possibility of such. Put down the sledgehammer.

There is only one rapture: of the Church. The angels gather the sheep and the wheat. Unless you think there is no rapture, and all are grabbed by angels and have a change of bodies in mid air?

The rapture of the Church is barley and wheat.

The Second Coming is pre-trib, because Jesus and the angels are the cause of Jacob's trouble. 66 percent of Jacob will be tossed into the LOF during the Trumpets. That is a heap of trouble.

The second coming is pre wrath which is post trib at the 6th seal.

 

[The Light]

Because the Seals deal with the church.

The Church is in heaven before the seals are opened.

The Trumpets deal with Israel/Jacob.

The trumpets are the seventh seal Day of the Lord the one year wrath of God.

The Thunders deal with the Gentile nations after the church and Israel are removed.

Not even the slightest chance that you can produce any scriptural support. Why do you claim this? There is no scripture just a sledgehammer.

The Gentiles are the only ones left on earth during the 7 Thunders. That is why John was told not to write them down. The church and Israel will not even be on the earth to experience them.

That is not using a sledgehammer. That is common sense when it comes to gathering a harvest. You would make a horrible farmer leaving all your produce out in the field once harvested, to let it rot in the sun.

What is left during those last, 42 months, given to Satan will be those with the mark, ie produce left to rot after the expiration date, and those beheaded.

You need to start with the basics. The second coming occurs at the 6th seal. Jesus remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. We can prove this.

 

[The Light]

No, that Rev. 14:14-16 harvest was of the Son of Man alone reaping the "earth". It says nothing there in those verses about gathering the saints from the four winds of heaven yet, as it does for the later harvest which you brought up in Matt. 24:31 where the angels do the reaping. These were two different "harvests".

These are not different harvests. The harvest at the 6th seal is the harvest in Matthew 24 which is the harvest in Revelation 14 which is the second coming.

The first sickle harvest in Rev. 14:14-16 was the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints, which the resurrected Christ Himself brought out of those broken-open graves around Jerusalem on that same day that He arose.

And that harvest of the 144,000 First-fruits Matt. 27:52-53 saints preceded the "wrath of God" harvest of Israel the "vine of the earth" (in Rev. 14:17-20) which was crushed outside the city of Jerusalem till the blood ran bridle-deep in the AD 66-70 period.

The 144,000 are the first fruits of the harvest in Rev 14 which is before the wrath of God. This occurs at the 6th seal and has nothing to do with 66-70 AD. PERIOD.

Yes, Israel was quite often referred to by the "grape" comparison: "The vine of Sodom", which yielded "wild grapes". Israel was compared to a vineyard in the prophets which God had originally set up, but which did not yield the fruit He desired. This is why the Rev. 14:17-20 sickle "harvest" of the "vine of the earth" is specifically the nation of Israel being crushed in the winepress of the wrath of God. Those "days of vengeance" were dedicated to that specific nation of Israel in AD 66-70, in retribution for Jerusalem slaying the prophets and servants of God, and for betraying and murdering the Son of God. They shed the blood of saints and prophets, so in just recompense, God gave them blood to drink in those "days of vengeance".


That was Jerusalem being referred to where the evil angelic hosts of the high ones would be imprisoned (as in Rev. 18:2). That Old Jerusalem which became a "habitation of devils" and "a prison for every unclean spirit" would be destroyed and God would be revealed as the ruler of the New Jerusalem reality in which we believers live today.

Not a chance. Whoever taught you these things is passing bad information.

"Mystery Babylon", guilty of the shed blood of the saints and prophets, is called "that great city", and John wrote that "the great city" was "where our Lord was crucified". Ergo, "Mystery Babylon" in Revelation is Old Jerusalem.

Mystery Babylon is Vatican City, that dresses on purple and scarlet.

The seals were all opened long ago according to the writer John. Both the introduction and the conclusion for the book of Revelation announced that those events predicted for the future were for a time that was "ABOUT TO BE hereafter", and that the time for their fulfillment was "AT HAND" (Rev. 1:3 & 19, 22:10). Those phrases tells us that John's first-century readers would experience all those things playing out in their own time frame - not in our future today.

The only predictions in Revelation that would apply to our own future are found in the "sealed up" prophecies of Revelation 10:4. That's it. John didn't write them down, because those predictions did not apply to his own first-century readers, but to generations to come.

Mmm. The Word says different.

Rev 1
19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

 

[The Light]

The last day at the resurrection (Then Cometh The End)

The second coming of Jesus Christ and the resurrection of all is (The Last Day)

1 Corinthisns 15:20-24KJV
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Please explain how MANY of them that sleep in the dust of the earth are raised and not ALL of them that sleep in the ground are raised.

Daniel 12
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Here we see ALL of them that are in the graves come forth.

The Word says that those who have done good come forth to the resurrection of live and those that have done evil unto the resurrection of damnation.

Is your salvation based on you doing good?

 

[Truth7t7]

Please explain how MANY of them that sleep in the dust of the earth are raised and not ALL of them that sleep in the ground are raised.

Daniel 12
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.



Here we see ALL of them that are in the graves come forth.

The Word says that those who have done good come forth to the resurrection of live and those that have done evil unto the resurrection of damnation.

Is your salvation based on you doing good?

The word "Many" doesn't exclude "All" nor does "All" exclude "Many" they're completely compatible, and a parallel reading of the same future event, concerning the last day resurrection

 

[tailgator]

Never heard of him. I read the scriptures mainly, and dip into the history of the old pagan empires from ordinary online sources, as well as Ussher's Annals of the World, Josephus, and just a bit of the early church fathers. The scriptures are quite plain as to the chronological progression of the Persian, Greek, Hasmonean, and Roman kingdoms of Daniel 11. Daniel gave so precise a prediction of ancient historical events that some claim Daniel wrote it after the fact and not before.

And that interpretation you've heard came from the Hellenistic Jew named Jason

You will not find a prophet in the bible who says the abomination of desolation was placed in Jerusalem in 167 bc.

Josephus lived in the first century.He was not alive to witness any events in 167 bc.He too ,as a Pharisees was taught Jason's interpretation.


Jesus was not taught by the Pharisees as Josephus was .Jesus taught that the abomination of desolation would be a sign of his coming and Jesus is correct.Jesus gave such an accurate description of the abomination of desolation,one can recognize that is when the resurection takes place.But you would have to be a disciple of Jesus to understand his word.Anyone who follows Jasons word would not understand Jesus.

Mathew 24
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.




You have been mislead by Jason's interpretation of Daniel .You have excepted that mans interpretation as though it was the word of God spoken by a prophet even though no prophet ever uttered such things.

 

[The Light]

The word "Many" doesn't exclude "All" nor does "All" exclude "Many" they're completely compatible, and a parallel reading of the same future event, concerning the last day resurrection

Use common sense. I will pay you many of the dollars that you earned does not mean you will get paid all of the dollars that you earned.

And I see you were unable to answer my question about those doing good and salvation?

When you say MANY of THEM, you are not saying all of them. Otherwise, you would just say all.

Additionally, we are talking about the people of Daniel and not all people.

Daniel 12
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Further, we are talking about those being raised at the end of the great tribulation. The great tribulation is over before the 6th seal is opened. When Jesus comes at the 6th seal, this is the LAST DAY of the age when MANY OF THE PEOPLE OF DANIEL WILL BE RAISED.

Then the wrath of God begins when the 7th seal is opened and then the 1st trumpet sounds. The 7th seal is the wrath of God. At the end of the wrath of God............ALL of them that remain in the ground will be raised.

Revelation 11
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

 

[3 Resurrections]

The 144,000 are the first fruits of the harvest in Rev 14 which is before the wrath of God. This occurs at the 6th seal and has nothing to do with 66-70 AD. PERIOD.

Christ on the way to the cross predicted that very wrath of God falling on those in Israel and their children. "Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck. Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us. For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?" (Luke 23:28-31).

It was that first-century generation of Israelites and their own children who experienced all of that. And it was in the AD 66-70 period, because Daniel 12:7 had predicted that it would take a "time, times, and half a time" (3-1/2 years) to shatter the power of the holy people.

Not a chance. Whoever taught you these things is passing bad information.

Israel being a vineyard is mentioned multiple times in scripture.

The "Song of Moses" in Deuteronomy 32:32 calls Israel "the vine of Sodom".
Hosea 10:1 called Israel "an empty vine" that brought forth fruit unto himself.
Isaiah 5 has a lengthy message to Israel as the vineyard, with verse 7 saying, "For the vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel". Mark 12:1-12 was Christ's parable of the vineyard, which even the chief priests, scribes, and elders knew that this parable about the "vineyard" let out to evil "husbandmen" was spoken against themselves.

The Jews were well aware of the comparison of their nation with a vineyard and with the "wild grapes" of Isaiah 5:2 that the nation had produced. That "vineyard" was reaped by the second sickle in Revelation 14:17-20 wielded by the angel, and the "clusters of the vine of the earth" were thrown into the winepress to be crushed. That was the destruction of Israel as a nation in the AD 66-70 period. Christ is pictured as doing the treading of that winepress in Revelation 19:15. "And he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God". Christ's whole vesture is dipped in the blood of His enemies at that point, which stains all His raiment, just as prophesied in Isaiah 63:1-6.

Mystery Babylon is Vatican City, that dresses on purple and scarlet.

Not according to John's presentation of Mystery Babylon / Jerusalem who was guilty of the blood of all the slain righteous from Abel to Zecharias, including the prophets and apostles (Rev. 18:20). Christ had already accused Jerusalem of this blood guilt in Matt. 23:37, and promised to bring that blood guilt upon that first-century generation of Israelites in Luke 11:49-51.

Mmm. The Word says different.

Rev 1
19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

That is too generic a translation. The Greek "mello" term emphasizes the imminence of all those prophecies of John's immediate future. "Write the things that thou hast seen, and the things that are, and the things that are ABOUT TO (mellei) come after these things;"

There is additional urgency with John saying that "the time is AT HAND" for those prophecies. This indicated that the time of fulfillment for Revelation's prophecies of the future to begin unfolding had then arrived as John was writing the book.

 

[3 Resurrections]

You have been mislead by Jason's interpretation of Daniel .You have excepted that mans interpretation as though it was the word of God spoken by a prophet even though no prophet ever uttered such things.

I've never read anything by the Jason you mention. Nothing. I am reading Luke from Luke 21:20-21, who interprets what the "abomination of desolation" was, and it was "Jerusalem surrounded by armies". This happened once under Antiochus E. IV, when Daniel 11:31 wrote that "ARMS shall stand on his part", thus polluting the sanctuary. It happened again in AD 66 under Cestius Gallus, when once more ARMIES came to surround Jerusalem and caused desolations until the end of the war. Daniel 9:27 had predicted that "with the abominable ARMIES he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation".

That warning of Christ to the believers of His own generation was to flee from Judea and Jerusalem when they saw the AOD of those armies surrounding Jerusalem. This happened in AD 66, and at that time those believers who were in Judea and Jerusalem fled in great numbers in obedience to Christ's warning. We can actually calculate that about 1-1/4 million believers fled Judea and Jerusalem after AD 66 by comparing the AD 66 Passover census records with the casualty lists from the war beginning in October AD 66 until AD 70's taking of Jerusalem by the Romans.

 

[tailgator]

I've never read anything by the Jason you mention. Nothing. I am reading Luke from Luke 21:20-21, who interprets what the "abomination of desolation" was, and it was "Jerusalem surrounded by armies". This happened once under Antiochus E. IV, when Daniel 11:31 wrote that "ARMS shall stand on his part", thus polluting the sanctuary. It happened again in AD 66 under Cestius Gallus, when once more ARMIES came to surround Jerusalem and caused desolations until the end of the war. Daniel 9:27 had predicted that "with the abominable ARMIES he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation".

That warning of Christ to the believers of His own generation was to flee from Judea and Jerusalem when they saw the AOD of those armies surrounding Jerusalem. This happened in AD 66, and at that time those believers who were in Judea and Jerusalem fled in great numbers in obedience to Christ's warning. We can actually calculate that about 1-1/4 million believers fled Judea and Jerusalem after AD 66 by comparing the AD 66 Passover census records with the casualty lists from the war beginning in October AD 66 until AD 70's taking of Jerusalem by the Romans.

For someone who never heard of Jason,you sure preach his false doctrine.

 

[The Light]

Christ on the way to the cross predicted that very wrath of God falling on those in Israel and their children. "Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck. Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us. For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?" (Luke 23:28-31).

It was that first-century generation of Israelites and their own children who experienced all of that. And it was in the AD 66-70 period, because Daniel 12:7 had predicted that it would take a "time, times, and half a time" (3-1/2 years) to shatter the power of the holy people.

All this occurs in the future and cannot happen until blindness is removed from part of Israel when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Israel being a vineyard is mentioned multiple times in scripture.

The "Song of Moses" in Deuteronomy 32:32 calls Israel "the vine of Sodom".
Hosea 10:1 called Israel "an empty vine" that brought forth fruit unto himself.
Isaiah 5 has a lengthy message to Israel as the vineyard, with verse 7 saying, "For the vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel". Mark 12:1-12 was Christ's parable of the vineyard, which even the chief priests, scribes, and elders knew that this parable about the "vineyard" let out to evil "husbandmen" was spoken against themselves.

The Jews were well aware of the comparison of their nation with a vineyard and with the "wild grapes" of Isaiah 5:2 that the nation had produced. That "vineyard" was reaped by the second sickle in Revelation 14:17-20 wielded by the angel, and the "clusters of the vine of the earth" were thrown into the winepress to be crushed. That was the destruction of Israel as a nation in the AD 66-70 period. Christ is pictured as doing the treading of that winepress in Revelation 19:15. "And he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God". Christ's whole vesture is dipped in the blood of His enemies at that point, which stains all His raiment, just as prophesied in Isaiah 63:1-6.

The coming of Jesus in Rev 14 is a future event which happens after the great tribulation.

Not according to John's presentation of Mystery Babylon / Jerusalem who was guilty of the blood of all the slain righteous from Abel to Zecharias, including the prophets and apostles (Rev. 18:20). Christ had already accused Jerusalem of this blood guilt in Matt. 23:37, and promised to bring that blood guilt upon that first-century generation of Israelites in Luke 11:49-51.


That is too generic a translation. The Greek "mello" term emphasizes the imminence of all those prophecies of John's immediate future. "Write the things that thou hast seen, and the things that are, and the things that are ABOUT TO (mellei) come after these things;"

There is additional urgency with John saying that "the time is AT HAND" for those prophecies. This indicated that the time of fulfillment for Revelation's prophecies of the future to begin unfolding had then arrived as John was writing the book.

The future events of Revelation include the four horsemen of the Apocalypse. The fifth seal great tribulation. The sixth seal coming Jesus for the second harvest, and the 7th seal Day of the Lord.

None of this has happened. Common sense if nothing more should tell you that.

 

[ScottA]

Just to be clear, the first resurrection and judgement is to the house of God.

Revelation 20:4-6​

​

King James Version​

​

​

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The harvest in Revelation 14 is speaking of the same end time Harvest. It does not contradict Matthew 13. Revelation 14 does not say “the righteous are gathered first” it just shows both being harvested at the same time.

Yes, however, many give priority to the timeline of events as they are revealed in this world--because they are of this world.

To the contrary, there is no passing of time from the heavenly perspective. Meaning, there is but one harvest and on resurrection, "but each one in his own order" from this worldly perspective. Even so, all was "before the foundation of the world" when we who are His "were" crucified with Christ.

 

[3 Resurrections]

All this occurs in the future and cannot happen until blindness is removed from part of Israel when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

No, what Christ said was that those weeping women and their own children would live to experience those disastrous events themselves. It was in their immediate future - not ours.

The coming of Jesus in Rev 14 is a future event which happens after the great tribulation.

The "Great Tribulation" was called "the days of vengeance" so that everything that was written about those "days of vengeance" would be fulfilled (as in the "Song of Moses" pronounced against Israel in their "latter end" when God in vengeance would judge His people).

Christ returned "immediately after the tribulation of those days", or immediately after the days of vengeance against His people at their "latter end". This "Great Tribulation" is not a future event, and neither is Christ's second coming bodily return which happened "immediately after" it.

None of this has happened. Common sense if nothing more should tell you that.

Common sense should tell you that when John's Revelation tells you that those events were "AT HAND" and were "ABOUT TO BE hereafter" in his own days, that these prophesied events took place back in the first century. You are not at liberty to yank them out of the first-century temporal context in which John placed them.

 

[3 Resurrections]

For someone who never heard of Jason,you sure preach his false doctrine.

I am merely quoting scripture, and listing historical events as recorded by ordinary historians. Call it what you will, that doesn't make your analysis correct.

 

[tailgator]

I am merely quoting scripture, and listing historical events as recorded by ordinary historians. Call it what you will, that doesn't make your analysis correct.

Your not quoting scripture.
Your historical events are the work of Jason of Cyrene.He is your historical writer who's work is no more.

 

[tailgator]

No, what Christ said was that those weeping women and their own children would live to experience those disastrous events themselves. It was in their immediate future - not ours.


The "Great Tribulation" was called "the days of vengeance" so that everything that was written about those "days of vengeance" would be fulfilled (as in the "Song of Moses" pronounced against Israel in their "latter end" when God in vengeance would judge His people).

Christ returned "immediately after the tribulation of those days", or immediately after the days of vengeance against His people at their "latter end". This "Great Tribulation" is not a future event, and neither is Christ's second coming bodily return which happened "immediately after" it.


Common sense should tell you that when John's Revelation tells you that those events were "AT HAND" and were "ABOUT TO BE hereafter" in his own days, that these prophesied events took place back in the first century. You are not at liberty to yank them out of the first-century temporal context in which John placed them.

So you also preach the resurrection is past already seeing Daniel wrote the resurrection takes place at the same time of great tribulation ?


2 Timothy 2
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;

18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

 

[3 Resurrections]

So you also preach the resurrection is past already seeing Daniel wrote the resurrection takes place at the same time of great tribulation ?


2 Timothy 2
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;

18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

You mistake why that teaching of Hymenaeus and Philetus was accepted by many of the believers back in those days. These two men were basing their incorrect teaching on the actual bodily resurrection of the Matthew 27:52-53 saints that had been raised from the dead on that same day that Christ arose.

This was such an astounding event to anyone who had been an eye-witness of those saints having been resurrected, that Hymenaeus and Philetus began teaching that this past resurrection event was the only resurrection that would ever take place. This was a plausible error that many had accepted, because many others in the days of the early church also knew about that group of many Matt. 27:52-53 resurrected saints. This was discouraging to their faith concerning their own dead loved ones still in the grave, if there was only going to be that single, past resurrection that the saints would ever experience. Paul had to counter that mistaken idea by teaching the church in 1 Thess. 4 about the next resurrection that was coming at Christ's second coming return.

Your not quoting scripture.
Your historical events are the work of Jason of Cyrene.He is your historical writer who's work is no more

Yes, I AM quoting scripture. And these historical events have been recorded by more historians than just your single man Jason - whom I have never read before or even heard his name. Why do you keep dragging his name up if he is so inconsequential?

The events of the Jewish / Roman war are no secret. There is a pile of archaeological evidence and a number of historians who recorded the natural disasters and frequent wars during that tumultuous decade, all of which matches Christ's predictions for the "beginning of sorrows" as well as the start of the Jewish / Roman war.

 

[tailgator]

You mistake why that teaching of Hymenaeus and Philetus was accepted by many of the believers back in those days. These two men were basing their incorrect teaching on the actual bodily resurrection of the Matthew 27:52-53 saints that had been raised from the dead on that same day that Christ arose.

This was such an astounding event to anyone who had been an eye-witness of those saints having been resurrected, that Hymenaeus and Philetus began teaching that this past resurrection event was the only resurrection that would ever take place. This was a plausible error that many had accepted, because many others in the days of the early church also knew about that group of many Matt. 27:52-53 resurrected saints. This was discouraging to their faith concerning their own dead loved ones still in the grave, if there was only going to be that single, past resurrection that the saints would ever experience. Paul had to counter that mistaken idea by teaching the church in 1 Thess. 4 about the next resurrection that was coming at Christ's second coming return.


Yes, I AM quoting scripture. And these historical events have been recorded by more historians than just your single man Jason - whom I have never read before or even heard his name. Why do you keep dragging his name up if he is so inconsequential?

The events of the Jewish / Roman war are no secret. There is a pile of archaeological evidence and a number of historians who recorded the natural disasters and frequent wars during that tumultuous decade, all of which matches Christ's predictions for the "beginning of sorrows" as well as the start of the Jewish / Roman war.

All of your historians were taught Jason's interpretation.

Historians such as Josephus who had not witnessed anything in 167 bc had been taught Jason's interpretation of Daniel
Jason like yourself believed the time of the end was in 167 bc. That is when you and Jason believe the seal was opened for Jason's understanding.

Daniel 12:4
But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.”


No one can convince you that Jason's interpretation is wrong and the time of the end didn't come in 167 bc.

 

[3 Resurrections]

No one can convince you that Jason's interpretation is wrong and the time of the end didn't come in 167 bc.

I've never written that 167 BC was "the time of the end" that Daniel 12:4 was referring to. Evidently you haven't read enough of my position yet if you presume that is the meaning of my comments.

That particular "time of the end" in Daniel 12:4 was the time when the power of Daniel's people was shattered (Dan. 12:7). This happened after 3-1/2 years (42 months) of the city and the sanctuary being trodden underfoot (Rev. 11:2), just as the angel predicted in Dan. 12:7, which was by AD 70.

All the seals of Revelation 6 were opened in John's first-century generation. That is because Revelation itself tells us that the time for those predictions to be fulfilled was "AT HAND" as John was writing the book. I believe John, and Christ Jesus who sent those messages to John of things in his immediate future that were "ABOUT TO BE hereafter" (Rev. 1:19).

 

[tailgator]

I've never written that 167 BC was "the time of the end" that Daniel 12:4 was referring to. Evidently you haven't read enough of my position yet if you presume that is the meaning of my comments.

That particular "time of the end" in Daniel 12:4 was the time when the power of Daniel's people was shattered (Dan. 12:7). This happened after 3-1/2 years (42 months) of the city and the sanctuary being trodden underfoot (Rev. 11:2), just as the angel predicted in Dan. 12:7, which was by AD 70.

All the seals of Revelation 6 were opened in John's first-century generation. That is because Revelation itself tells us that the time for those predictions to be fulfilled was "AT HAND" as John was writing the book. I believe John, and Christ Jesus who sent those messages to John of things in his immediate future that were "ABOUT TO BE hereafter" (Rev. 1:19).

Wow ,are you confused.
Daniel 12:1 is about the great tribulation caused by the abomination of desolation .

Oh wait.You don't believe Jesus.
You believe the abomination of desolation was a man killing a pig in 167 bc as Jason taught.

Daniel 12:1
And at that time Michael the great prince shall stand up, that stands over the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of tribulation, such tribulation as has not been from the time that there was a nation on the earth until that time: at that time thy people shall be delivered, even every one that is written in the book.



Must be a lot of pigs being killed to cause great tribulation ahh?Roflol


Mathew 24
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.