When are the dead and living in Christ caught up to the Lord?

[tailgator]

Yes a lot of people ignore just how little the beast is.

Daniel 7
20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;


The little horn makes war with the saints.
The other ten horns that share the kingdom with it doesnt even do that .Just the little one which people from all nations followed after.

 

[TribulationSigns]

The world is decieved.
But the peoples of the nations which the beast reigns over are them who followed after the beast from all nations,peoples and tongues.

Revelation 13
3 One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast.

You've got to keep in mind,the beast is described as being little in scripture.Hes not big

Daniel 7
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.


Only them who ignore God believe the beast is bigly.

No. The horns in Scripture signifies power or strength. God is taking about Satan having the power for a short season that he will work through men who will speak satanic doctrines (eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things). The little horn is not an individual who will someday take over Temple Mount and speak great things before television.

 

[tailgator]

No. The horns in Scripture signifies power or strength. God is taking about Satan having the power for a short season that he will work through men who will speak satanic doctrines (eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things). The little horn is not an individual who will someday take over Temple Mount and speak great things before television.

The little horn is a little country which people from all over the world have followed after.Immigrated to.
He defeated three other kings and took control of the seven hilled city of Jerusalem in only six days.

Daniel 7
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.


Hmmm
That's the same people Jesus said would kill his disciples in the gospel.Imagine that.
Jerusalem,Jerusalem,thou that killest the prophets.

It's like Jesus said who would kill the saints 1000s of years before it happens.Jesus knows some stuff if anyone is listening.

 

[TribulationSigns]

The little horn is a little country

The little horn is a little country? Scripture please becasue that is speculation.

He defeated three other kings and took control of the seven hilled city of Jerusalem in only six days.

a "seven-hilled city" is Jersualem? Scripture please becasue that is speculation.

Jerusalem,Jerusalem,thou that killest the prophets.

A physical city can kill the prophets? You do not know what you are talking about.

It's like Jesus said who would kill the saints 1000s of years before it happens.Jesus knows some stuff if anyone is listening.

Are you listening? I do not think so. You made many speculations with false interpretations.

 

[Truth7t7]

Revelation 14 is the gathering from heaven and earth which occurs at the 6th seal. Here we see He sends His angels.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

That harvest which was in 30 AD was first fruits of the grain harvest. After the grain harvest occurs in the future, the 144,000 will be first fruits of the coming fall fruit harvest. The harvest is what you see when Jesus comes in Rev 14 prior to the wrath of God.


Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

Israel is found as grapes. The fathers of Israel were supposed to be the first fruits of the first harvest, but they served Baalpeor.

The Gentiles become the first harvest to provoke them to jealously.

Romans 11
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

We can also prove that the Jews are not the first harvest in Jeremiah 8. The Jews miss the summer grain harvest and are harvested at the fall fruit harvest which occurs at the last trump, blown on the Feast of Trumpets.

Jeremiah 8
20 The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

They are not talking about Jerusalem as we can see in the previous chapter.

21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.

22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the Lord of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

Additionally, Jerusalem is not mystery Babylon. Peter call Rome Babylon.

1 Peter 5
13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.


Impossible. This false conclusion does not agree with the Word of God.

You should probably read this chapter

Zech 14
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.


You are smart and yet very confused. You went down a rabbit hole and are lost in the quagmire. The seals are not opened. That should be apparent to anyone. Get out of that hole so you can see.

There is one future resurrection of all that have lived, this takes place on the last day, second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens (The End) Eternity Begins in the twinkling of an eye

 

[Timtofly]

None of what you are saying is correct. When the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord...........The millennial kingdom is set up. Wrath is over.

Rev 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Further proof is here.
Revelation 11
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

You have disregarded common sense and are beating things together with a sledge, making them fit.

Of course it is supposed to be finished, just like it could have been finished at the Cross, and the Millennium Kingdom would have started then and there, without the fulness of the Gentiles.

But what is prophesied and what happens is not always equal in time. Just like Daniel only saw one single resurrection, which would have happened at the Resurrection of Jesus, and the whole world instantly changed.

God can declare the Millennium to start at the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, but then Daniel 9:27 would not split the week, and no Abomination of Desolation set up. There is still an extension of time written into Daniel 9, and it has not happened yet.

I am not force fitting anything. If it happens, it will happen, if not then God had better plans than you have.

Besides the fact you are changing up Revelation to fit your own ideal eschatology. You are not seeing it unfold like John did.

You are stuck in the same "it has to be finished" rut as Amil, and all those who declare the 70 weeks over in the first century. The 70 weeks are not over until the 7th Trumpet stops sounding. Not at the split second it starts sounding. The 7th Trumpet is a week long event. The third such event in the history of Israel.

The fall of Jericho was a week long event involving Trumpets.

The week of the Cross was a week long event, that started the downfall of Israel and Jerusalem.

The 7th Trumpet is the end of many things.

The 6,000 year punishment of Adam's disobedience.

The end of Daniel's 70th week.

The end of the final harvest.

The end of the fulness of the Gentile harvest.

The end of Adam's dead corruption, and Jesus' eternal kingdom realized on earth as all nations are now brought under subjection to the will of God.

 

[The Light]

There is one future resurrection of all that have lived, this takes place on the last day, second coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens (The End) Eternity Begins in the twinkling of an eye

Which last day?

 

[Timtofly]

Yeah. Let's pretend those 7 trumpets are not in the 7th seal.

That's like saying that the 1st seal is a white horse. Then ignoring that a rider sits on horse with a crown given to him and he goes forth conquering and to conquer.

You need to apply some commonsense brother.

Rev 6
And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.


Jacobs trouble is over at the sixth seal. I'm sure you have read..........IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS.

That occurs at the 6th seal as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.



It is not God wrath as you say but the LOF comment doesn't work.


The Gentiles will be raptured before the seals are opened. See Rev 3.4,5, and 6



You seem to be skipping the raptures. Rev 14 shows the second one, the fruit harvest.

I had no idea you were pre trib.

The sheep and goat occurs after the wrath of God...........7th seal. The rapture of the Church happens before the seals are opened. The rapture of the seed of the woman happens before the 6th seal is opened.


ok

Not correct. Who are the nations that come to Jerusalem in Zechariah?


How can you possibly claim that the wheat is sown during the thunders. You got proof of that? This is what I am talking about........using a sledgehammer to beat things into place instead of just putting things where the Word of God says they go.

There is nothing "in" the 7th Seal.

The Trumpets are sent out after the half an hour of silence.

The Seals deal with the church, not Israel.

The Trumpets deal with Israel, not the church.

That is the only common sense interpretation.

The Seals have nothing to do with Jacob nor Israel. You may as well write your own version of Revelation, because you're sure not understanding John's writings at all.

The Gentiles are the lost nations, only the church is raptured.

The Millennium will not even start until the 7th Trumpet stops. The nations that exist on the earth are the wheat harvested during the 7 Thunders. They are the redeemed who represent all nations during the Millennium Kingdom. They all send a yearly delegation to the Temple and throne of Jesus.

There is only one rapture: of the Church. The angels gather the sheep and the wheat. Unless you think there is no rapture, and all are grabbed by angels and have a change of bodies in mid air?

The Second Coming is pre-trib, because Jesus and the angels are the cause of Jacob's trouble. 66 percent of Jacob will be tossed into the LOF during the Trumpets. That is a heap of trouble.

 

[Timtofly]

How can you possibly claim that the wheat is sown during the thunders. You got proof of that? This is what I am talking about........using a sledgehammer to beat things into place instead of just putting things where the Word of God says they go.

Because the Seals deal with the church.

The Trumpets deal with Israel/Jacob.

The Thunders deal with the Gentile nations after the church and Israel are removed.

The Gentiles are the only ones left on earth during the 7 Thunders. That is why John was told not to write them down. The church and Israel will not even be on the earth to experience them.

That is not using a sledgehammer. That is common sense when it comes to gathering a harvest. You would make a horrible farmer leaving all your produce out in the field once harvested, to let it rot in the sun.

What is left during those last, 42 months, given to Satan will be those with the mark, ie produce left to rot after the expiration date, and those beheaded.

 

[honeycomb]

Well,you need to inform him that he is not the chosen one and that he can not save Israel or keep Israel safe.
Inform him that only God can do the things he says only he can do.
Maybe he will stop showing himself to be God .

Any ideas about the deadly wound?

 

[Timtofly]

That is one proposal that I have read, but it really is not possible. That is because Revelation 15:8 tells us that no man was able to enter heaven's temple until the 7 plagues had been fulfilled. And we know for certain that the 7 plagues were not finished before Christ's ascension.

Christ was also called "the FIRST-born" and the "FIRST-begotten" to ascend to heaven on that day of His resurrection (when He told Mary in John 20:17 that He was then ascending for the first time to the Father in His resurrected state). No other person had ever ascended to God's presence in heaven in a bodily-resurrected state before Christ did this (John 3:13).


Our physical bodies have been purchased by Christ. Our bodies are not our own, but have been bought with a price - the precious blood of Jesus Christ. Even in death, those dead bodies of the saints belong to Christ, and He will redeem those bodily remains from the power of the grave. Otherwise, Christ's victory over death is not complete.

This "redemption of our BODY" (Rom. 8:23) in the resurrection process is the work of the Holy Spirit. What you are describing as a body that "returns to dust never to be seen again" is the fate of the WICKED dead - NOT the saints. Christ promised the disciples that even if they were slain for His name, that "not an hair of your head shall perish" (Luke 21:18).

Just like rwb is doing, you too are trying to subtract part of the complete salvation experience that all saints are promised to inherit - their own dead body changed into the incorruptible, immortal state, standing before God in heaven in a face-to-face fellowship of a restored spirit, soul, and body.

If one is in Christ, they are never left behind. Plagues have nothing to do with entering Paradise. Now serving God day and night in that heavenly temple may have been put on hold, but plagues are never over an extended period of time.

The thief was already physically in Paradise on Wednesday, when his soul left Adam's dead corruptible flesh for God's permanent incorruptible physical body. On Sunday the OT redeemed were physically in Paradise.

They all were the firstfruits in Christ.

Bodies are not changed. The soul puts off one and puts on the other.


Jesus said the body of death returns to dust. Paul states, we, the soul puts on incorruption. So we take off corruption in the process.

2 Corinthians 5:2 definitely shows the difference. One body is a tent. One body is a building. Do you know the difference between the OT Tabernacle, and Solomon's Temple? One is a tent and temporary. The other is a building and more permanent, not replaced every few years from wear and tear.

Sorry but you claim we have a holy incorruptible physical body at the Second Birth, that replaced the corrupt flesh from Adam. No verse in Scripture states that the spiritual birth changes the physical body.

Sorry but Paul says we "put on", not "transform". There is a contract with death in the old body that has to be dissolved, before redemption can take place. That is why physical death frees the soul from that contract, and that body turns to dust. The contract of eternal life is in God's new permanent incorruptible physical body.

 

[tailgator]

The little horn is a little country? Scripture please becasue that is speculation.



a "seven-hilled city" is Jersualem? Scripture please becasue that is speculation.



A physical city can kill the prophets? You do not know what you are talking about.



Are you listening? I do not think so. You made many speculations with false interpretations.

The ten horns are ten kings.
The size is the size of their countries.Also note the little horn is different that the rest and appears to be stouter than his fellows.
These are all descriptions which you ignore.Thats why you can't understand very simple things.You ignore the word of God.

 

[tailgator]

Any ideas about the deadly wound?

The deadly wound was received in 70 AD and was healed in 1948 AD.
For nearly 2000 years the world thought it was dead but was amazed when it was healed.And people from.all nations followed after the beast.


Revelation 17:15
Then the angel said to me, “The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages.

It's a nation of immigrants founded for people who reject Christ.There is a small amount of disciples in it though .They will be persecuted for the last 3.5 years till Christ comes.

Mathew 10

22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

 

[rebuilder 454]

There are none.

I can give you several.

BTW..I have challenged postribbers to post a verse pointing to a postrib rapture.
NOBODY HAS EVER FOUND ONE.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Are you in the pretrib camp then? That’s probably why we disagree in every possible way.

I am pretrib and debate anyone that is honest.
I can defend that doctrine easily.
In fact it is one of the easiest to defend.
Most postribbers carry in tons of extra biblical material.
Hmmmmm.
All I need is my bible

 

[rebuilder 454]

No, it would not make them the "last fruits". That would be like saying the 12 disciples/apostles were the last fruits of the OT Covenant, instead of the firstfruits of the NT Covenant.


The 144k are the firstfruits before the sheep are chosen, and the wheat is gathered. They all are the firstfruits of the Millennial Kingdom age. That would be the Day of the Lord you wrongly apply to the time leading up to the first century. The Day of the Lord is the Sabbath Day of rest from Adam's 6,000 years years of labor under the bondage of sin. You have that Sabbath rest smack dab in the middle of Adam's punishment.

Nope.
They are firstfruit ethnic Jews

 

[3 Resurrections]

Revelation 14 is the gathering from heaven and earth which occurs at the 6th seal. Here we see He sends His angels.

No, that Rev. 14:14-16 harvest was of the Son of Man alone reaping the "earth". It says nothing there in those verses about gathering the saints from the four winds of heaven yet, as it does for the later harvest which you brought up in Matt. 24:31 where the angels do the reaping. These were two different "harvests". The first sickle harvest in Rev. 14:14-16 was the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints, which the resurrected Christ Himself brought out of those broken-open graves around Jerusalem on that same day that He arose.

And that harvest of the 144,000 First-fruits Matt. 27:52-53 saints preceded the "wrath of God" harvest of Israel the "vine of the earth" (in Rev. 14:17-20) which was crushed outside the city of Jerusalem till the blood ran bridle-deep in the AD 66-70 period.

Israel is found as grapes.

Yes, Israel was quite often referred to by the "grape" comparison: "The vine of Sodom", which yielded "wild grapes". Israel was compared to a vineyard in the prophets which God had originally set up, but which did not yield the fruit He desired. This is why the Rev. 14:17-20 sickle "harvest" of the "vine of the earth" is specifically the nation of Israel being crushed in the winepress of the wrath of God. Those "days of vengeance" were dedicated to that specific nation of Israel in AD 66-70, in retribution for Jerusalem slaying the prophets and servants of God, and for betraying and murdering the Son of God. They shed the blood of saints and prophets, so in just recompense, God gave them blood to drink in those "days of vengeance".

They are not talking about Jerusalem as we can see in the previous chapter.

21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.

22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the Lord of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

That was Jerusalem being referred to where the evil angelic hosts of the high ones would be imprisoned (as in Rev. 18:2). That Old Jerusalem which became a "habitation of devils" and "a prison for every unclean spirit" would be destroyed and God would be revealed as the ruler of the New Jerusalem reality in which we believers live today.

"Mystery Babylon", guilty of the shed blood of the saints and prophets, is called "that great city", and John wrote that "the great city" was "where our Lord was crucified". Ergo, "Mystery Babylon" in Revelation is Old Jerusalem.

You should probably read this chapter

Zech 14
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

I have. Many times. Zechariah's prophecy from chapter 12-14 is the prediction of the destruction of Old Jerusalem in the AD 66-70 period, accompanied by Christ's second coming return in AD 70. That return was followed by continued history in a "year to year" worship of Christ Jesus in the New Jerusalem reality, which we currently occupy. The "feast of tabernacles" is emphasized in these verses because that is the timing for the next, third resurrection "harvest" at the close of fallen mankind's history on this planet.

The seals are not opened. That should be apparent to anyone.

The seals were all opened long ago according to the writer John. Both the introduction and the conclusion for the book of Revelation announced that those events predicted for the future were for a time that was "ABOUT TO BE hereafter", and that the time for their fulfillment was "AT HAND" (Rev. 1:3 & 19, 22:10). Those phrases tells us that John's first-century readers would experience all those things playing out in their own time frame - not in our future today.

The only predictions in Revelation that would apply to our own future are found in the "sealed up" prophecies of Revelation 10:4. That's it. John didn't write them down, because those predictions did not apply to his own first-century readers, but to generations to come.

 

[3 Resurrections]

The Day of the Lord is the Sabbath Day of rest from Adam's 6,000 years years of labor under the bondage of sin. You have that Sabbath rest smack dab in the middle of Adam's punishment.

I see the scripture putting the Rev. 20 millennium "smack dab in the middle of Adam's punishment". It's as Habakkuk predicted in Hab. 3:2, "O Lord, revive thy work in the midst of the years, in the midst of the years make known; in wrath remember mercy." That "revival" under Zerubbabel and the prophets took place in the very center of all 7,000 years of fallen mankind's history in this world.

The prophet Ezra acknowledged that this "reviving" had taken place in the mercy shown to the exiled Israelites. This "mercy" of God was displayed by His causing the Persian kings to decree the Israelites' return to their homeland to rebuild their temple and the city. "...our God hath not forsaken us in our bondage, but hath extended mercy unto us in the sight of the kings of Persia, to give us a reviving, to set up the house of our God, and to repair the desolations thereof, and to give us a wall in Judah and in Jerusalem."

By God causing the revival of the nation, the city, and the Israelite people in the post-exilic return, that kept the Rev. 20 millennium restriction on Satan's deception of the nations continuing during that literal thousand-year millennial period that lasted from 968 / 967 BC until AD 33.

 

[3 Resurrections]

I like Daniel 11,it's very informative of the last several decades.

Daniel 11 is a step-by-step chronological description of ancient historical events from the Persian kings on through Alexander the Great, his four generals dividing the Greek empire, the prevailing Seleucid and Ptolemaic branches of the Greek empire with Antiochus E. IV descending from the Seleucid kings, the vicious Hasmonean king Alexander Jannaeus, then the rise of the Roman Pompey the Great's actions. As a matter of fact, every bit of Daniel's entire book is ancient history by now.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Bodies are not changed. The soul puts off one and puts on the other.

Ummm, yes, the body being "changed" is the way scripture describes it, in both the OT and the NT (Job 14:14-15, 1 Cor. 15:51-54). The dead material remains of our physical body are resurrected and "changed" into an immortal, incorruptible condition that can never die again. That "change" is described as the old corruptible, dead physical body "putting on" immortality and incorruptibility, which alters its condition into a physical body that is animated by the Holy Spirit - hence, a "spiritual body".

The resurrected individual is not composed of a spirit alone; they are changed into a "spiritual BODY". Just as a gasoline ENGINE runs on gasoline, but is not composed entirely of gasoline.