When are the dead and living in Christ caught up to the Lord?

[The Light]

What am I "dreaming up"? The Greek word for that first sickle harvest by the newly-crowned Son of Man sitting on a cloud is "exeranthe", which means "dried up" or "withered". This isn't fresh fruit being harvested here. These were long dead saints who were resurrected by being "harvested" out of the earth. And this Revelation 14:14-16 harvest cannot possibly be the resurrection at the second coming of Christ, because at that second-coming of Christ, "the reapers are the angels" we are told in Matthew 13:39. Here is Revelation 14:14-16, it is the Son of Man ALONE who is doing the "reaping" here by Himself. Just as it was the newly-resurrected, ascending Christ who led that "multitude of captives" (the Matt. 27:52-53 saints) out of the grave and gave them as "gifts to men" (Ephesians 4:8-12).

Jesus swings the sickle but the angels do the gathering.

To be "redeemed FROM THE EARTH" is to be bodily-resurrected out of it, as described for the "redemption of the body" in Romans 8:23. The 144,000 resurrected First-fruits saints were "sealed" to RESERVE them in that protected status until their eventual transport to heaven coming up when Christ returned for all the resurrected saints in AD 70. A "seal" in scripture puts the promise of something on hold until it can be performed in real time.

The 144,000 first fruits CANNOT occur until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. THAT's FACT.

To discourage such designs for a rebuilt temple, God has before squashed plans for rebuilding a Jerusalem temple by rather dramatic methods back in 363 AD under the urging of the emperor Julian. It would be no problem for God to prevent such plans again. I believe the red heifers will probably die of old age before they can be utilized in a vain attempt to renew such a "weak and beggarly" structure.

What happened in 363 AD has nothing to do with what is getting ready to happen.

Daniel 9:26 said it would be "the PEOPLE of the Prince that shall come" (Messiah the coming Prince just spoken of in Dan. 9:25). Christ's OWN PEOPLE would do that destruction and desolating work on the city and the sanctuary. Josephus was an eye-witness of the Zealots' carnage and destruction of their own city, and confirmed that "these beasts born among ourselves" were the main cause of Jerusalem's woes and destruction rather than the Romans who came to put the nails in the coffin.

I don't believe that the Jews would destroy their own Temple. Not sure how you can make yourself believe this.

Revelation 17:16 also duplicates the information as to who would destroy Mystery Babylon / Jerusalem. It was the ten horns on the Judean Scarlet Beast found in the wilderness who hated the whore that Jerusalem had become, and would "make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh and burn her with fire." (Rev. 17:16). This wasn't Rome being spoken about here. It was the ten horns of the Judean Scarlet Beast who turned on Jerusalem with such hatred. Civil war in Jerusalem under the competing Zealot factions was its worst enemy.

The fullness of the Gentiles will come in before part of Israel has its blindness removed. FACT.

 

[The Light]

The 7th Seal opened just produced silence in heaven for a half an hour.
There is no wrath but sad quietness that now many names will be removed from the sealed book, as now it can be edited. Before the Seals are removed, nothing can be blotted out, as in editing this book, by placing a blot of ink over a name thus removing that name.

Yeah. Let's pretend those 7 trumpets are not in the 7th seal.

That's like saying that the 1st seal is a white horse. Then ignoring that a rider sits on horse with a crown given to him and he goes forth conquering and to conquer.

You need to apply some commonsense brother.

Rev 6
And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

It is sorta like released Government documents that are heavily redacted. The word is still there but useless, as all one can see is black ink blocking the word.

The Second Coming is before Jacob's trouble, the first 6 Trumpets.

Jacobs trouble is over at the sixth seal. I'm sure you have read..........IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS.

That occurs at the 6th seal as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.

That is the time called the greatest trouble ever for Israel. That is not God's wrath, but justice in the point two thirds of Israel living on the earth at that time will be tossed into the LOF during the Trumpets.

It is not God wrath as you say but the LOF comment doesn't work.

The 7 Thunders are the harvest of all the Gentiles on the earth.

The Gentiles will be raptured before the seals are opened. See Rev 3.4,5, and 6

As Jesus declared in Matthew 13, the vast majority of Gentiles will be tossed immediately into the LOF. The redeemed Gentiles will wait in the barn. That is the post Second Coming firstfruits of the Millennial Kingdom, who will wait on the sea of Glass in Revelation. That is the location as referring to "the barn".

You seem to be skipping the raptures. Rev 14 shows the second one, the fruit harvest.

Not only will the church be removed first pre-trib,

I had no idea you were pre trib.

the Second Coming happens before the tribulation of the separation of Israel into sheep and goats. All of Israel will be removed one way or the other. Then a vast majority of the remaining Gentile nations will be removed. So not many are going to be left on the earth by the time the 7th Trumpet sounds.

The sheep and goat occurs after the wrath of God...........7th seal. The rapture of the Church happens before the seals are opened. The rapture of the seed of the woman happens before the 6th seal is opened.

God's wrath is not until after Satan's 42 months are over, and by that time, all the beheaded will be gone, and probably thousands of others just being killed for the fun of it, during this time of utter desolation. This is going to be way worse than any human apocalyptic movie imagined.

ok

People are just not getting the fact that not many will be left, and each event John describes, removes people, instead of leaving people behind. The point is by Armageddon no one is left on earth in Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

Not correct. Who are the nations that come to Jerusalem in Zechariah?

Those on white horses just left that "heavenly barn" where they had been gathered prior to the 7th Trumpet. The beheaded will not be resurrected until after those on horses set up their own living arrangement on the earth. These are the redeemed wheat and sheep, not the church. The church remains in Paradise until this current creation is handed back to God. The firstfruits starting with the 144k live on earth during the Day of the Lord. The 144k were sealed before the 7th Seal was opened. The sheep were redeemed during the Trumpets. The wheat was sown during the Thunders. They were not found in Paradise. They waited on the sea of glass the "wilderness" John tells us about, as that place of safety.

How can you possibly claim that the wheat is sown during the thunders. You got proof of that? This is what I am talking about........using a sledgehammer to beat things into place instead of just putting things where the Word of God says they go.

 

[Truth7t7]

All the scriptures agree there is no resurrection of the dead or the living in Christ until “the last day,”and at “the last trump.”

I Agree 100%

 

[3 Resurrections]

Those resurrected at the Cross were not around to pass on information to people. They all ascended into Paradise, Sunday morning with Jesus. No one knew much about them, because they were only in town for 3 days.

That is one proposal that I have read, but it really is not possible. That is because Revelation 15:8 tells us that no man was able to enter heaven's temple until the 7 plagues had been fulfilled. And we know for certain that the 7 plagues were not finished before Christ's ascension.

Christ was also called "the FIRST-born" and the "FIRST-begotten" to ascend to heaven on that day of His resurrection (when He told Mary in John 20:17 that He was then ascending for the first time to the Father in His resurrected state). No other person had ever ascended to God's presence in heaven in a bodily-resurrected state before Christ did this (John 3:13).

Now, no one in Paradise have been physically dead. All they have done, is simply left Adam's dead corruptible flesh behind, as it will return to dust never to be seen again.

Our physical bodies have been purchased by Christ. Our bodies are not our own, but have been bought with a price - the precious blood of Jesus Christ. Even in death, those dead bodies of the saints belong to Christ, and He will redeem those bodily remains from the power of the grave. Otherwise, Christ's victory over death is not complete.

This "redemption of our BODY" (Rom. 8:23) in the resurrection process is the work of the Holy Spirit. What you are describing as a body that "returns to dust never to be seen again" is the fate of the WICKED dead - NOT the saints. Christ promised the disciples that even if they were slain for His name, that "not an hair of your head shall perish" (Luke 21:18).

Just like rwb is doing, you too are trying to subtract part of the complete salvation experience that all saints are promised to inherit - their own dead body changed into the incorruptible, immortal state, standing before God in heaven in a face-to-face fellowship of a restored spirit, soul, and body.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

Do you look at the pretrib rapture verses in your assessment?

There are none.

 

[honeycomb]

No
The AC overcomes the saints.
All gentiles are beheaded that refuse the mark.
Postrib rapture is impossible

We disagree here.

 

[honeycomb]

Do you look at the pretrib rapture verses in your assessment?

Let’s take one at a time, shall we?

 

[honeycomb]

None of what you are saying is correct. When the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord...........The millennial kingdom is set up. Wrath is over.

There is still one more battle that happens after the millennium:
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

- Revelation 20:7-11 (KJV)

PEtRA

 

[honeycomb]

Do you look at the pretrib rapture verses in your assessment?

There is no pretrib rapture.
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

- 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 (KJV)

PEtRA

 

[3 Resurrections]

Ecclesiastes 3:20 (KJV) All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Of course the dead bodies of men go into the dust of the grave and the spirits of men return to God. That was the decreed fate for Adam's choosing to sin, which fate passed upon all who are in Adam.

But that is not the period on the end of the sentence for the dead bodies of the saints. For those "In Christ", there is a different story than for the wicked, because Christ promised those that believe that "they shall not perish, but shall have everlasting life". From the OT forward, the message has been consistent: the dead bodies of the righteous wait in the grave until their "change" comes (Job 14:14-15). The righteous dead in the grave are made to hear the voice of the Son of God, and those dead body remains are raised and changed to the incorruptible and immortal state in the resurrection process, which only takes the "twinkling of an eye" for God to accomplish.

The saints that came out of their graves went into the HOLY CITY. After the cross and resurrection Jerusalem of Old was no longer the holy city of God. It ceased being the holy temple and holy city, and was declared a desolation unto God.

Of course Jerusalem was declared "desolate" by Christ during His earthly ministry. Simply because Matthew referred to Jerusalem as the "holy city" AFTER Christ had declared it desolate - this is a figure of speech called an "anachronism". Don't get hung up on a figure of speech. I'm sure you have used terms like this yourself on occasion, where something is referred to by a title which no longer applies, simply to confirm what location, person, or thing is being spoken about.

The only holy city after the death and resurrection of Christ is found in heaven, where the Father is. That's where the spirit of Christ went when His body died, and that's where this spiritual body of saints that arose from the grave ascended. There they appeared to an innumerable company of angels and the hosts of heaven.

No, there was nobody who bodily ascended to heaven along with Christ that morning, nor at His later ascension in Acts 1 either. See Revelation 15:8 for the exact time when bodily-resurrected individuals were first allowed into heaven's temple. It was only allowed after the 7 plagues were finished. The bodily-resurrected Matthew 27:52-53 saints remained on earth for a "little season" until AD 70 when Christ returned to take them to heaven with Him and the rest of the newly-resurrected saints (as Paul described in 1 Thess. 4).

Which is why NONE who were physically resurrected of Old were resurrected IMMORTAL! Immortal beings do not die! They resurrected with the same flesh and blood bodies they died in, to grow old and die again.

Clearly, he, and all those others miraculously raised have also died a again.

That is not true for those who were bodily raised to physical life because they have ALL died again, death still had dominion over THEM.

Wrong deductions. Nobody every dies twice. Once ONLY, followed by a judgment, according to the appointment for all mankind in Hebrews 9:27-28. You and many others keep insisting that people who were resurrected in scripture simply died again later. One problem: NOBODY EVER GIVES A VERSE THAT PROVIDES AN EXAMPLE OF THIS. You simply contradict Hebrews 9:27-28, or wave your hand to make the meaning of that text disappear. I don't know why you even quote it if you don't believe what Heb. 9:27-28 says.

Our own resurrection process is exactly like that of Christ. "...He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Sprit who dwells in you." (Rom. 8:11). Same process. Same result.

As Luke 20:35-36 wrote, for the children of God who are resurrected, "neither CAN they die anymore, for they are equal unto the angels". It just. Isn't. Possible. To die twice.

 

[Timtofly]

This deluded viewpoint thinking that Christ did not return in AD 70 ignores Christ's own words of promise in Matthew 16:27-28 that He would return in the glory of HIs Father with the holy angels, giving rewards to everyone according to their works, and that this would happen while some of those He was then speaking to were still alive.

"Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."

Why would they taste death after the glorious return? How is that glorious, if they are going to die anyway?

Some would experience eternal life and never taste death period. Jesus was not promising a long physical life. Jesus was promising eternal life. Physical death is not tasting death. Death is being separated from life and God.

The OT redeemed tasted death waiting for a physical resurrection. Jesus was saying no one would have to taste that death, and separation from God, waiting to experience eternal life. The verse you alluded to is in the context of these verses:

"For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?"

The soul would not taste death, not even when this mortal body passes away. The soul would be forever with God having eternal life, and God's permanent incorruptible physical body until the Second Coming. Jesus was not talking just about the physical body dying. Jesus pointed out that whosoever tried to save their own life on their own would loose it. Those who gave up their physical life for Jesus would receive eternal life and never taste death period, not even after the Second Coming.

Those who say it just means some would live until 70AD, and then what, one would physically die anyway? Some of those would have eternal life. All souls have to leave this mortal body. That would be physical death. Only those in Christ would not taste death, even though the physical body is left behind to return to dust.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Jesus swings the sickle but the angels do the gathering.

No, Rev. 14:14-16 says that the Son of Man does the reaping in this particular harvest - no angels participating in this reaping process. This particular "harvest" was for the AD 33 "First resurrection" of Christ and the 144,000 First-fruits, Matthew 27:52-53 saints.

The 144,000 first fruits CANNOT occur until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. THAT's FACT.

No, it's not a fact. Scripture puts the Jews FIRST. "To the Jew FIRST, and also to the Greek". Paul said it was necessary that the Word of God should FIRST have been spoken to the Jews (Acts 13:46), but since they rejected it, God switched the gospel focus to all the nations of the world at large. That is why the "FIRST resurrection" was composed of only Jewish tribal members being raised from those graves around Jerusalem (the Matt. 27:52-53 saints), because God was using those immortal Jewish resurrected saints to present the gospel FIRST to their fellow Jews during those last 3-1/2 years of the 70th week of "confirming the covenant with many" of Daniel's people.

What happened in 363 AD has nothing to do with what is getting ready to happen.

God has made no such plans to restore a temple building in Jerusalem. Quite the contrary, as Isaiah 25:2 once prophesied for the time when Jerusalem would be destroyed, "For thou hast made of a city an heap; of a defenced city a ruin: a palace of strangers to be no city; it shall never be rebuilt."

The angel in Revelation 18 getting rid of "Mystery Babylon" which is Old Jerusalem is pictured as casting a great stone into the sea, saying, "Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all."

Any efforts to restore Jerusalem's temple are fated not to succeed.

I don't believe that the Jews would destroy their own Temple. Not sure how you can make yourself believe this.

Of course, nobody in their right mind would do that. But remember this. Christ promised that His own wicked generation (out of whom He was then casting out unclean spirits), would have those same unclean spirits return to them in their "last state", each of them with 7 other spirits more wicked than the ones which had been cast out. This would make the "last state" of that generation worse than its "first state" when Christ had been ministering among them (Matt. 12:43-45).

The city of Jerusalem was prophesied that it would turn into "a prison for every unclean spirit" and "a habitation of devils" (Rev. 18:2). The entire realm of Satan's devils and unclean spirits were confined within the city of Jerusalem in those years, possessing the people who were trapped inside the besieged city.

In scripture, a possessed person is not in their "right mind". They do suicidal things. Just as the competing Zealot factions were doing to each other during the AD 66-70 years. Josephus records the insane activities which these Zealot factions were doing in Jerusalem during these years. They themselves burned up the city's stored grain supplies, which could have sustained the besieged inhabitants of Jerusalem for a few years. Murder of anyone suspected of wanting to defect to the Romans. Murdering their own former high priests. Murdering anyone who had food to eat. Burning buildings as they fought each other. Cutting people open to get any gold they may have swallowed. Other stuff too disgusting to write. The Zealots were their own people's worst enemy during those AD 66-70 years.

I believe the Jews inside Jerusalem did most of this destruction themselves, because Revelation 17:16-17 tells me that those 10 horns on the Judean Scarlet Beast did this to their own city. Josephus merely confirms this with his history of this period.

 

[Timtofly]

If these saints of Old have been resurrected back to life on earth in immortal bodies, how is that reconciled with what John has written in Jo 5 where he writes ALL of the dead shall be resurrected from the graves unto the resurrection of damnation, or resurrection of life?

John 5:28-29 (KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

You would also need to reconcile this partial resurrection in immortal bodies with what is written in Hebrews that tells us the Old Covenant faithful, even though of faith had not yet received the promise, because none shall be made perfect without all of us (believers)?

Hebrews 11:39-40 (KJV) And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Hebrews 11:40 was fulfilled at the Cross.

John 5 does not say all of humanity would be physically dead in sheol. That is ridiculous. What is a rapture for if all have to be physically buried in the ground?

Do you think that literally all humanity has to be physically dead before the Second Coming? John 5 still works if the majority are still in the grave, and some resurrected.

Sheol is emptied out after heaven and earth no longer exist.

That verse points out that all will be emptied out of sheol, and no one left in the grave. Some from sheol will be granted eternal life, although some don't believe in second chances. It does no mean those in Christ are still waiting for eternal life.

If one is in Christ they already have eternal life with the Second Birth. They certainly won't be waiting for something they already have had prior to physical death.

All the dead, means all the dead, not all the living who have physically died. You are still part of the dead, because you have a mortal body. Once free of that body, you will have an eternal body, not more death to contend with.

 

[3 Resurrections]

"Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."

Why would they taste death after the glorious return? How is that glorious, if they are going to die anyway?

Some of those Christ spoke to back in Matthew 16:27-28 lived to see His bodily return to the Mount of Olives in AD 70. They were eye-witnesses of it while they were still alive. Christ then returned to heaven in AD 70 taking all of the resurrected saints with Him, for all the saints who had died from Creation up to AD 70.

This verse shows us that human death for both righteous and wicked would still occur on earth AFTER Christ's second coming return. Ordinary human history has continued to flow after that second coming return back in AD 70.

No living saints who hadn't died yet participated in that "rapture" to heaven in AD 70. Those living witnesses of Christ's return died later on, just as all men are appointed to die the one time before a judgment (as in Hebrews 9:27-28). While their spirit dwells with Christ in heaven, their physical body's mortal remains are now waiting in the grave for the next bodily resurrection event in our future, because that is the eventual blessing that all believers are promised for their physical bodies after physical death.

All souls have to leave this mortal body. That would be physical death. Only those in Christ would not taste death, even though the physical body is left behind to return to dust.

Agreed that all must pass through physical death by the soul leaving the mortal body. Being "in Adam" causes this fate for everyone. But it is the mortal bodies of the righteous that are raised out of the dust of the grave and changed to the incorruptible and immortal by the resurrection process. The wicked never receive that blessing. Their mortal remains truly are left behind forever in the grave to "perish" by returning to dust.

 

[The Light]

There is still one more battle that happens after the millennium:
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

- Revelation 20:7-11 (KJV)

PEtRA

I know.

 

[The Light]

No, Rev. 14:14-16 says that the Son of Man does the reaping in this particular harvest - no angels participating in this reaping process.

Revelation 14 is the gathering from heaven and earth which occurs at the 6th seal. Here we see He sends His angels.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This particular "harvest" was for the AD 33 "First resurrection" of Christ and the 144,000 First-fruits, Matthew 27:52-53 saints.

That harvest which was in 30 AD was first fruits of the grain harvest. After the grain harvest occurs in the future, the 144,000 will be first fruits of the coming fall fruit harvest. The harvest is what you see when Jesus comes in Rev 14 prior to the wrath of God.

No, it's not a fact. Scripture puts the Jews FIRST. "To the Jew FIRST, and also to the Greek". Paul said it was necessary that the Word of God should FIRST have been spoken to the Jews (Acts 13:46), but since they rejected it, God switched the gospel focus to all the nations of the world at large. That is why the "FIRST resurrection" was composed of only Jewish tribal members being raised from those graves around Jerusalem (the Matt. 27:52-53 saints), because God was using those immortal Jewish resurrected saints to present the gospel FIRST to their fellow Jews during those last 3-1/2 years of the 70th week of "confirming the covenant with many" of Daniel's people.

Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

Israel is found as grapes. The fathers of Israel were supposed to be the first fruits of the first harvest, but they served Baalpeor.

The Gentiles become the first harvest to provoke them to jealously.

Romans 11
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

We can also prove that the Jews are not the first harvest in Jeremiah 8. The Jews miss the summer grain harvest and are harvested at the fall fruit harvest which occurs at the last trump, blown on the Feast of Trumpets.

Jeremiah 8
20 The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

God has made no such plans to restore a temple building in Jerusalem. Quite the contrary, as Isaiah 25:2 once prophesied for the time when Jerusalem would be destroyed, "For thou hast made of a city an heap; of a defenced city a ruin: a palace of strangers to be no city; it shall never be rebuilt."

The angel in Revelation 18 getting rid of "Mystery Babylon" which is Old Jerusalem is pictured as casting a great stone into the sea, saying, "Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all."

Any efforts to restore Jerusalem's temple are fated not to succeed.

They are not talking about Jerusalem as we can see in the previous chapter.

21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.

22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the Lord of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

Additionally, Jerusalem is not mystery Babylon. Peter call Rome Babylon.

1 Peter 5
13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

Of course, nobody in their right mind would do that. But remember this. Christ promised that His own wicked generation (out of whom He was then casting out unclean spirits), would have those same unclean spirits return to them in their "last state", each of them with 7 other spirits more wicked than the ones which had been cast out. This would make the "last state" of that generation worse than its "first state" when Christ had been ministering among them (Matt. 12:43-45).

The city of Jerusalem was prophesied that it would turn into "a prison for every unclean spirit" and "a habitation of devils" (Rev. 18:2). The entire realm of Satan's devils and unclean spirits were confined within the city of Jerusalem in those years, possessing the people who were trapped inside the besieged city.

Impossible. This false conclusion does not agree with the Word of God.

You should probably read this chapter

Zech 14
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

In scripture, a possessed person is not in their "right mind". They do suicidal things. Just as the competing Zealot factions were doing to each other during the AD 66-70 years. Josephus records the insane activities which these Zealot factions were doing in Jerusalem during these years. They themselves burned up the city's stored grain supplies, which could have sustained the besieged inhabitants of Jerusalem for a few years. Murder of anyone suspected of wanting to defect to the Romans. Murdering their own former high priests. Murdering anyone who had food to eat. Burning buildings as they fought each other. Cutting people open to get any gold they may have swallowed. Other stuff too disgusting to write. The Zealots were their own people's worst enemy during those AD 66-70 years.

I believe the Jews inside Jerusalem did most of this destruction themselves, because Revelation 17:16-17 tells me that those 10 horns on the Judean Scarlet Beast did this to their own city. Josephus merely confirms this with his history of this period.

You are smart and yet very confused. You went down a rabbit hole and are lost in the quagmire. The seals are not opened. That should be apparent to anyone. Get out of that hole so you can see.

 

[Timtofly]

Do you believe in a pre-trib rapture? Maybe that's where we disagree, as I believe that Christians with the seal of God in their foreheads will sail right on through the tribulation. No problem for “bruisers.” Yes, we will be standing firm among the Elect as we witness for the LORD, enduring to the end when Jesus returns.

Revelation 9:1-5 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man
————
Mark 13:9-11 But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them. And the gospel must first be published among all nations. But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

—PEtRA

No one has the seal of God, until after the Second Coming. There is no enduring until the end in any tribulation scenario. The enduring until the end applied to Paul and Peter, and all believers in the first century, so not enduring until the end, nor the Second Coming. Millions have endured to the end via martyrdom in the last 1900 years. That is what Jesus said to do. Not just one group at the end had to endure. The last 1994 years have been great tribulation when it comes to the persecuted church. Some have had it easier than others. Those living in comfort and a rich lifestyle still have to endure to the end as well, no? They should not let the cares of this world prevent them from living in obedience to God.

The rapture is symbolized in the 5th Seal. The Second Coming is symbolized in the 6th Seal. Then and only then, after the rapture and Second Coming, are 144k sealed on the earth. There is no Second Coming after the 6th Seal. The 7th Seal is not opened until after the Second Coming. The 5th Trumpet happens after the first 4 Trumpets, not prior to the 5th Seal, nor the 1st Seal for that matter.

Those with the Seal of God are those chosen disciples who follow Jesus, not just the general audience. The original 12 disciples were protected in the presence of Jesus when Jesus came as Messiah. At the Second Coming, those redeemed do not hang out on the earth. The church does not hang out with Jesus on the earth. The sheep of Matthew 25, do not hang out on the earth. The Second Coming is the removal of all humans from the earth. The first coming was not. The only ones who stay with Jesus the entire time, are the 144k sealed, as the Second Coming "disciples" of Jesus, who is their King now. We are not told exactly what they do. We are told that wherever Jesus goes, they go. They have not been sealed yet. They will be chosen and sealed after the Second Coming.

 

[honeycomb]

No one has the seal of God, until after the Second Coming. There is no enduring until the end in any tribulation scenario. The enduring until the end applied to Paul and Peter, and all believers in the first century, so not enduring until the end, nor the Second Coming. Millions have endured to the end via martyrdom in the last 1900 years. That is what Jesus said to do. Not just one group at the end had to endure. The last 1994 years have been great tribulation when it comes to the persecuted church. Some have had it easier than others. Those living in comfort and a rich lifestyle still have to endure to the end as well, no? They should not let the cares of this world prevent them from living in obedience to God.

The rapture is symbolized in the 5th Seal. The Second Coming is symbolized in the 6th Seal. Then and only then, after the rapture and Second Coming, are 144k sealed on the earth. There is no Second Coming after the 6th Seal. The 7th Seal is not opened until after the Second Coming. The 5th Trumpet happens after the first 4 Trumpets, not prior to the 5th Seal, nor the 1st Seal for that matter.

Those with the Seal of God are those chosen disciples who follow Jesus, not just the general audience. The original 12 disciples were protected in the presence of Jesus when Jesus came as Messiah. At the Second Coming, those redeemed do not hang out on the earth. The church does not hang out with Jesus on the earth. The sheep of Matthew 25, do not hang out on the earth. The Second Coming is the removal of all humans from the earth. The first coming was not. The only ones who stay with Jesus the entire time, are the 144k sealed, as the Second Coming "disciples" of Jesus, who is their King now. We are not told exactly what they do. We are told that wherever Jesus goes, they go. They have not been sealed yet. They will be chosen and sealed after the Second Coming.

Are you in the pretrib camp then? That’s probably why we disagree in every possible way.

 

[Timtofly]

If that were true, then that would make the Jewish 144,000 the "LAST-fruits" instead.

No, it would not make them the "last fruits". That would be like saying the 12 disciples/apostles were the last fruits of the OT Covenant, instead of the firstfruits of the NT Covenant.


The 144k are the firstfruits before the sheep are chosen, and the wheat is gathered. They all are the firstfruits of the Millennial Kingdom age. That would be the Day of the Lord you wrongly apply to the time leading up to the first century. The Day of the Lord is the Sabbath Day of rest from Adam's 6,000 years years of labor under the bondage of sin. You have that Sabbath rest smack dab in the middle of Adam's punishment.

 

[tailgator]

So when is the resurrection of the dead, and the living in Christ being caught up to the Lord?


1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall “rise first”: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”


Notice we see #1 the Lord himself decending, #2 the trump of the archangel is sounded, #3 “the dead rise first”and #4 the living are caught up to meet the Lord.

So when do the dead in Christ rise first? The answer is below…

John 6:39
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at “the last day.”

John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at “the last day.”

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at “the last day.”

John 11:24
Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at “the last day.”

So it is clear, the dead are raised on “the last day”.

Notice the judgment is also on the last day as well….

John 12:48
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in “the last day.”
The Judgment of saints is shown on the last day…. Revelation 20:4 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and “judgment was given unto them:”and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”

Confirmed here….

Daniel 7:21-22 21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; 22 Until the Ancient of days came, and “judgment was given to the saints”of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.”


When do saints posses the kingdoms of this world?

Revelation 11:15 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”


Daniel was told when he shall stand in the lot of his inheritance, and that was not until “the end.”


Daniel 12:13 13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at “the end of the days.”


Notice in the above, (Daniel 7:22) Christ first comes and the judgment is given to the saints on the last day.

So when does Christ come?

Son of Gods coming last day….


Luke 17:26-31

26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until “the day”that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.30 Even thus shall it be in “the day”when the Son of man is revealed.”


Notice above it was “the day” Noah entered they were destroyed, and “the same day” Lot left Sodom they were destroyed.

At the last day, at the Last Trump….

1Corinthians 15:51-52 “Behold I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at “the last trump:” for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead in Christ shall be raised incorruptable, and we shall be changed”

Notice at “the last trump”the dead are raised, and so what happens at the last trump…


Revelation 10:7 7 But in the days of the voice of “the seventh angel,” when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be “finished,” as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Revelation 11:12 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Revelation 11:15 15 And “the seventh angel sounded;” and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”

Also notice the elect are still on earth during the great tribulation and wrath of God.


Matthew 24:22 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Revelation 7:14 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Revelation 16:15 15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.


All the scriptures agree there is no resurrection of the dead or the living in Christ until “the last day,”and at “the last trump.”

The last day is the seventh day and the Sabbath of the Lord.It lasts 1000 years and I believe begins in the year 2028.I will know for sure next year if I'm right about the beginning of the day or not

Luke 13:32
He said to them, “Go tell that fox, ‘Look, I’m driving out demons and performing healings today and tomorrow, and on the third day I will complete my work.’


2000 years =2 days.