God is probably more than three?

[Matthias]

Psalm 82:1, Elohim can't be standing in the midst of one elohim.

Depends on how we define the distinction and unity of these other beings.

Lets say God had a wife, Asherah exists. Is she then one with God the same way as the three to make her God? Generally, Trinitarians require members of the Godhead to have a certain relation (e.g. familial relations, dependence relations, or compositional relations) creating an ‘indivisible unity’ such that it is impossible for anyone person to function as a God without the others (e.g. Jesus must mediate between us and God the Father). For the Creedal Trinity, God is undivided by "substance" or "essence", then there is the Social Trinity where God is undivided by "purpose" and "will", that it's justified to reference them with a lack of distinction.

Or like Kabalistic Judaism, the ten Sephiroth, angel-like attributes of God's personality. Each are just different "Aspects" of God. It's a very interesting idea, a little better explanation of the sort "tether" that binds the triunion of the Trinity when they each have independent wills. Not my favorite concept, but one possible interpretation of reality I can't disprove. What if all angels or all of us are just aspects of God's own mind? I can't put down monotheism absolutely in that case, even if the 70 extra gods of the nations exist.

"There was Eru, the One... the Ainur, the Holy Ones, were the offspring of his thought" (J. R. R. Tolkien – The Silmarillion)

Thanks. I still can’t see from your post whether or not you believe that there is a case for God himself probably being more than three.

 

[Matthias]

A basis in the Bible? I think there is, but that may not be a good thing.

Thanks. I don’t see any biblical basis for believing that God himself is probably more than three. If there was, I would expect to have run across it many times over the years in academic, church and private settings. In my experience, this is an extremely rare belief among Christians.

Do you personally believe that God himself is probably more than three?

A major idea of Gnosticm (and many other forms of mysticism) is emanationism. The idea of emanationism is that all the various gods are really just emanations of One Highest God above all. Hebrew Kabbalah embraces this idea. In this view, for instance... there is no god-of-wisdom, there are only emanations of one aspect of the Godhead - His wisdom. All gods of war are simply embodiments of the LORD's character as a man of war. Fertility goddeses are only reflections of His... magnanimity shall we say?

There is a Wisdom tradition in the Bible among the books of Poetry. It's mostly Solomon who writes about it, and it's mostly in the book of Proverbs, but Wisdom is there anthropomorphized as an emanation of God. That being said, it should be remembered that Proverbs was written by Solomon at a time when he was chasing foreign gods and women.

There are only a scant few other verses to be found in Moses and David that might suggest such a thing, and that only if we twist their arm hard enough. The rest of the Bible largely doesn't agree with the idea, and certainly doesn't articulate it as a clear doctrine.

 

[Wick Stick]

Thanks. I don’t see any biblical basis for believing that God himself is probably more than three. If there was, I would expect to have run across it many times over the years in academic, church and private settings. In my experience, this is an extremely rare belief among Christians.

Do you personally believe that God himself is probably more than three?

I believe that God is One.

 

[Matthias]

Elohim (Strong’s Number H430) is always plural in form but almost always singular in meaning in all occurrences in the Hebrew Bible. It’s seldom plural in meaning and, when it is, it is always rendered plural in English translations; it is never rendered plural in English when speaking about the deity of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel. This can easily be confirmed in three ways: (1) consulting a Concordance; (2) reading any English translation of the Hebrew Bible; (3) cross referencing with the Greek Septuagint.

Yahweh is always the God (Heb. elohim, plural in form, singular in meaning) of Israel.

Yahweh is not ever the gods (Heb. elohim, plural in form, plural in meaning) of Israel.

Yahweh is always the God (Gk. theos, singular in form, singular in meaning) of Israel.

Yahweh is not ever the gods (Gk. theoi, plural in form, plural in meaning) of Israel.

Yahweh is the elohim and Father of the Messiah. Jesus of Nazareth (himself a Jew) prayed to and ascended to his elohim, (plural in form, singular in meaning), to his God, not to his gods.

An absurd question -> “Jesus, is your God, your elohim, your theos, probably more than three?”

 

[Matthias]

one book yet so many different understanding why not just read as it is? one is one, three is three? not written = not supported. just my programmer mindset...

Every Christian should allow Jesus, a Jew, to be their guide. His own God is only one.

Nowhere is it ever written, or even suggested, that the Messiah’s own God is more than one.

 

[Karl Peters]

I just provided Scripture that makes it impossble for their to be more than three. So, idk why people entertain the idea that there are/might be more than three.

Ps 82:6 I said, “You are gods,
And all of you are sons of the Most High.

Jn 10:34 Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, ‘I SAID, YOU ARE GODS'?

Well, I just provided Scripture that says there is more than three!!

So is did we not read:

Mar 10:27 Looking at them, Jesus *said, “With people it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God.”

Mat 19:26 And looking at them Jesus said to them, “With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

So just because Nephesh posts that it is impossible, that doesn't mean he is right!!

Jn 17:20 - 23 “I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word;
that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
“The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; I in them and You in Me, ...

When we don't believe in Jesus Christ then they won't really understand what God is doing!!! Leaning on your own understanding will not give you Understanding!!

 

[Pyreaux]

Thanks. I still can’t see from your post whether or not you believe that there is a case for God himself probably being more than three.

That might be because I think God isn't three per se, El Elyon is one being, and Yahweh and the Ruah are not parts of one God but possess an investure of authority by which the Father allows them to speak in his name. Like how Moses was made "god to Pharoh". They are permanent royal vassals: Jesus is God as he stands in the place of God the Father as a mediator.

 

[Matthias]

That might be because I think God isn't three per se, El Elyon is one person, and Yahweh and the Ruah are not parts of one God but possess an investure of authority by which the Father allows them to speak in his name. Like how Moses was made "god to Pharoh". They are permanent royal vassals: They are God that they are standing in his place as mediators.

Someone standing in the place of God himself is someone, like Moses, who isn’t literally God himself. It is someone, like Moses, who is acting as God’s agent, representative; Heb. shaliah. He is considered to be God himself without himself literally being God himself.

That’s the Jewish law of agency, and we see it in the Bible. Moses is a prime example.

 

[Pyreaux]

Someone standing in the place of God himself is someone, like Moses, who isn’t literally God himself. It is someone, like Moses, who is acting as God’s agent, representative; Heb. shaliah. He is considered to be God himself without himself literally being God himself.

That’s the Jewish law of agency, and we see it in the Bible. Moses is a prime example.

The one Angel of Yahweh in the burning bush speaking as though he were El, is the Word or preincarnate Christ, an agent of God, not God himself.

 

[Matthias]

The one Angel of Yahweh in the burning bush speaking as though he were El, is the Word or preincarnate Christ, an agent of God, not God himself.

That’s moving us away from the topic of this thread, but I’ll ask:

Do you believe Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ, preexisted as an angel?

 

[Pyreaux]

That’s moving us away from the topic of this thread, but I’ll ask:

Do you believe Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ, preexisted as an angel?

Its important to understand where someone stands to avoid misunderstanding. It is simple but complicated. The answer is yes, depending on context and perspective. I believe the New Testament's Letter to the Hebrews, Jesus is the being called Yahweh in the Old Testament's narrative, the one the Prophets talk to as God (it can get confusing because I think El's name is Yahweh but he's given his name to one of his sons who speaks on El's behalf, eg, Jesus is the Name of God, Yahweh, the Word from the beginning who said "let there be Light") after the fall of Babel, Israel was created and Yahweh-Jesus was given his allotment as an inheritance from his Father El Elyon the lordship of Israel, and is the Lord God of Israel. He's also the preeminent Son of God of many sons, made King of a council of other angel sons, the other son are divine but rebellious revivals of Yahweh's authority, the gods or angelic patrons of other nations. Jesus is the God of Israel, Father of human kings and other sons of God (priests and born again Christians) but not the Most High God who is the Father of the angelic Sons, like Yahweh-himself. Its likely I created more questions than answers.

To tie it into the topic at hand, their oneness isn't of substance or essence, but of goal and agency, the only thing limiting veneration of all would be agents of God is Christians are adopted into Israel, the Israelites are subject to the Lord and Spirit of Israel only, not any other. One true God, two mediators, a Lord God and a Lady Spirit.

 

[Matthias]

Its important to understand where someone stands to avoid misunderstanding. It is simple but complicated. The answer is yes, depending on context and perspective. I believe the New Testament's Letter to the Hebrews, Jesus is the being called Yahweh in the Old Testament's narrative, the one the Prophets talk to as God (it can get confusing because I think El's name is Yahweh but he's given his name to one of his sons who speaks on El's behalf, eg, Jesus is the Name of God, Yahweh, the Word from the beginning who said "let there be Light") after the fall of Babel, Israel was created and Yahweh-Jesus was given his allotment as an inheritance from his Father El Elyon the lordship of Israel, and is the Lord God of Israel. He's also the preeminent Son of God of many sons, made King of a council of other angel sons, the other son are divine but rebellious revivals of Yahweh's authority, the gods or angelic patrons of other nations. Jesus is the God of Israel, Father of human kings and other sons of God (priests and born again Christians) but not the Most High God who is the Father of the angelic Sons, like Yahweh-himself. Its likely I created more questions than answers.

To tie it into the topic at hand, their oneness isn't of substance or essence, but of goal and agency, the only thing limiting veneration of all would be agents of God is Christians are adopted into Israel, the Israelites are subject to the Lord and Spirit of Israel only, not any other. One true God, two mediators, a Lord God and a Lady Spirit.

Thanks. Maybe we can discuss it further in another thread sometime.

 

[Karl Peters]

The one Angel of Yahweh in the burning bush speaking as though he were El, is the Word or preincarnate Christ, an agent of God, not God himself.

JN 1:1,2 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.

Is 9:6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will [rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

So the "the Word or preincarnate Christ" is God!!! - unless of course we want to throw out the book of John from our Bible.

And that child born to us, that son which is given to us, is called "Mighty God" - unless of course we want to throw out the book of Isaiah from out Bible also. And it so it seems that the Christ is called God or Mighty God, and also the Word! And that clear from reading the Bible! So the real question is 'why we don't know that'???

Could that be because we don't listen to Him??

Prov 2:6 For the LORD gives wisdom;
From His mouth come knowledge and understanding.

 

[Matthias]

JN 1:1,2 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.

See English translations published prior to 1611.

This thread is about an assertion made by a Christian that God is probably more than three.

Is 9:6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will [rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

So the "the Word or preincarnate Christ" is God!!! - unless of course we want to throw out the book of John from our Bible.

See above.

And that child born to us, that son which is given to us, is called "Mighty God" - unless of course we want to throw out the book of Isaiah from out Bible also. And it so it seems that the Christ is called God or Mighty God, and also the Word! And that clear from reading the Bible! So the real question is 'why we don't know that'???

Could that be because we don't listen to Him??

See above.

Prov 2:6 For the LORD gives wisdom;
From His mouth come knowledge and understanding.

“His” -> one, not “probably more than three”.

 

[Karl Peters]

See English translations published prior to 1611.

This thread is about an assertion made by a Christian that God is probably more than three.



See above.



See above.



“His” -> one, not “probably more than three”.

HAH HAH HAH

Let us go back to a translation that is before 1611????

I like the NASB which was translated by the Lockman Foundation and they went back to numerous bits of Scriptures from before that with a number of theologians dedicated to giving us the best American translation possible. And so you think they either didn't know what they were doing (thereby declaring yourself smarter than all of them) or that they were part of a big conspiracy, to give us a poor translation.

And the things it that if you say uses another translation, that is not considered Protestant, like say a Catholic Bible, you will find the same thing!!

Isaiah 9:6 (NAB - Catholic version) For a child is born to us, a son given us:
The name him Wonder-Counselor, God-Hero, Father-Forever, Prince of Peace.

Ok he is "God-Hero" if you want, but that is still God!!!

People get so silly! They say they believe in the Scriptures/Bible, but then try and do flips trying to change it to comply with their interpretation - but even that does not work - so they just make statements without support for them, and so prove them wrong again and now what are they going to do?

I can tell you what they won't do - and that is listen to Him like it is written over and over and over... in their Bible - so since they say they can see they will remain blind!

There is a reason that we have the Father, Son, and Spirit as one God - but you won't understanding it!! God talks to us in parables and saying, and so even God being One God is a parable of saying! And that is so you won't understand and with your ears you will barely hear and with you eyes you won't see.

Mat 13: 10-13 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”
Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.
“For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him.
“Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

I can tell you, but you still won't understand, because understanding comes from His mouth, not your leaning on your own understanding!

So this - God told us to preach God is One God so that we might try to be one with Him - meaning we might listen to Him and do what He asks of us!

But you won't listen and believe, so you can not be One with God! Where as Jesus explained that He did and said only what the Father told Him and so He was One with God - His Father!

 

[Matthias]

HAH HAH HAH

Let us go back to a translation that is before 1611????

I like the NASB which was translated by the Lockman Foundation and they went back to numerous bits of Scriptures from before that with a number of theologians dedicated to giving us the best American translation possible. And so you think they either didn't know what they were doing (thereby declaring yourself smarter than all of them) or that they were part of a big conspiracy, to give us a poor translation.

And the things it that if you say uses another translation, that is not considered Protestant, like say a Catholic Bible, you will find the same thing!!

Isaiah 9:6 (NAB - Catholic version) For a child is born to us, a son given us:
The name him Wonder-Counselor, God-Hero, Father-Forever, Prince of Peace.

Ok he is "God-Hero" if you want, but that is still God!!!

People get so silly! They say they believe in the Scriptures/Bible, but then try and do flips trying to change it to comply with their interpretation - but even that does not work - so they just make statements without support for them, and so prove them wrong again and now what are they going to do?

I can tell you what they won't do - and that is listen to Him like it is written over and over and over... in their Bible - so since they say they can see they will remain blind!

There is a reason that we have the Father, Son, and Spirit as one God - but you won't understanding it!! God talks to us in parables and saying, and so even God being One God is a parable of saying! And that is so you won't understand and with your ears you will barely hear and with you eyes you won't see.

Mat 13: 10-13 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”
Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.
“For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him.
“Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

I can tell you, but you still won't understand, because understanding comes from His mouth, not your leaning on your own understanding!

So this - God told us to preach God is One God so that we might try to be one with Him - meaning we might listen to Him and do what He asks of us!

But you won't listen and believe, so you can not be One with God! Where as Jesus explained that He did and said only what the Father told Him and so He was One with God - His Father!

You’re off topic. (And discussing what board policy dictates cannot be discussed.)

 

[Karl Peters]

We Christians should clearly understand what God being One God means, but we never will if we don't listen to Jesus Christ as the Word of God via His Holy Spirit.

I was just listening to a Ben Carson interview and he talked about how Detroit, which was so divided during the 1960s and 1967 riots until the Detroit Tigers won the world series and he explained the after that the "city was one" - and he said "emphasize the things that bring you together" - and if you don't know, that is Jesus Christ - but only if we all listen to Him as the Word of God!

Luke 9:35 Then a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!”

When we all (those who are left) all listen to Him we will live in that city as one!

 

[Karl Peters]

You’re off topic. (And discussing what board policy dictates cannot be discussed.)

No - you are trying to change the topic because you fail to understand the topic!

The topic is "God is probably more than three?"

And Jesus said:

Jn 17:21,22 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may [fn]believe that You sent Me
“The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;

Maybe you should both read the Bible and listen to Him, and He will explain to you how the prayer is that "We are one", just like He and His Father are one!! And we know that Jesus gets all He asks His Father, but maybe some are not part of "We"?

 

[Matthias]

No - you are trying to change the topic because you fail to understand the topic!

The topic is "God is probably more than three?"

And Jesus said:

Jn 17:21,22 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may [fn]believe that You sent Me
“The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;

Maybe you should both read the Bible and listen to Him, and He will explain to you how the prayer is that "We are one", just like He and His Father are one!! And we know that Jesus gets all He asks His Father, but maybe some are not part of "We"?

It’s simple enough. The Christian asserted that God is probably more than three. There is no biblical basis that anyone has put forward to support that particular Christian’s bold assertion.

 

[Karl Peters]

If we are sons and daughters of a human then are we not human?

So, if we are sons and daughters of God then are we not all gods?

Of course a human might have to be born again, even of the Spirit of God. Yet if you have the Spirit of God in you are you not god? Of course if you do have the Holy Spirit in you then you hear and are lead by Him, right?

I remember when He asks me to pray for my daughters knee, which was swollen up. And as I began to pray the swelling went down under my hand as I prayed, and I (the human being) cannot make that happen! But if God in me asks me to do it, then me who has God in him can do it as asked.

Of course I am not perfect, but Jesus Christ does and says only what He Father tells Him, and so He is God the Son, even Might God - or Hero-God is you want to read a Catholic Bible.

And that is how we preach God is One God! - Though the un-believer will never understand it!