The Way/Theosis/entire sanctification.

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Episkopos

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The point I'm making is that there is a big difference between unbelieving Jews under the Law and people who have encountered the Lord and come to faith in Christ and have been made alive spiritually.

Not according to Paul...or the bible. Each has its own level of the gospel to fulfill or obey. You are not making any distinction between covenants. Have you read where Gentiles at this time, the wild branches, can be as easily cut off as the original branches were in their time.
You seem to maintain that there is no difference at all, apparently.

Each according to its kind. A physical race has physical laws. A spiritual race has spiritual laws. Do you see the difference?
The starting point for a believer is not the same as an unbeliever under Law....we are not on the same "level".

Each according to its kind.

Long ago there were chariot races. The first one over the line was the winner. Today we have formula one...a LOT faster...nothing to compare in speed...and yet the same rules apply. The first over the line is still the winner.

Under the law people are not to break the law outwardly. It's based on an outward race. Under grace we are held to a MUCH higher standard...so that even a thought is counted as sin. To whom much is given MORE is required. Like having a handicap in golf.

Grace empowers us to not sin...even in thought. The law can't do that.
There are things in scripture that speaks to the unbelieving Jew first on one level, and "then" speaks to the believing Gentile (mostly Gentile church) on another level. To the Jew first, then the Gentile.

Don't confuse the universal calling in Christ with the prophetic use of scriptures that work for all levels.
No as I've said numerous times, I'm not denying or despising holiness....just trying to understand and rightly divide what scripture is saying or showing with respect to what it means and how we get there etc.

Ask, seek and knock...by faith...until grace is received to walk as Jesus walked.
I do believe that the story of the Israelites was written for our example and that it seems to show a "second blessing" as it were, for the believer.
That can only work if you see yourself as an Israelite in the wilderness.
 

Lizbeth

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The details of it all are not to be the subjects of debate or intellectual understanding. Holiness teachers will often disagree. We find out on the journey and the most important thing if we want to get there, is to listen to the Holy Spirit carefully, especially on the 'little things' and begin to obey that voice immediately and get into that habit. If we obey the light we are given we receive more light.

As Paul is struggling with unintentional sin in Romans 7, and is then delivered as he enters the next chapter, I think we can get the picture.

This issue was a big thing in the past when the Keswick Movement came along in England, and said that in Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin, that destroyed really means put out of action, whereas previously destroyed meant just that. I believe the former, but that something can be destroyed in the spiritual realm yet come back to life.


See above. The flesh meaning the old man. Of course, if one has never experienced walking without sin, then one cannot get ones head around the concept.

This interpretation of when we put on incorruptible is debatable and makes no sense to me to be in the next life.



Sin is still in the flesh but the flesh is crucified if we are willing to make the sacrifice.
Who am I sister...........just trying to understand some things. Battling with brain fog today. Paul wrote that "in me (that is in my flesh) is no good thing". I doubt that will ever not be true for anyone in this life then.....?

Corruption putting on incorruption is speaking of the redemption of the body, (though possibly it might also be an allegory too...certainly seems to fit as a pattern). But the bible does speak of the body being redeemed when we die. "Perfection" is sometimes used in that sense of when our bodies are redeemed when we die, as well as elsewhere in the sense of being matured and complete in this life.
 
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Lizbeth

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Not according to Paul...or the bible. Each has its own level of the gospel to fulfill or obey. You are not making any distinction between covenants. Have you read where Gentiles at this time, the wild branches, can be as easily cut off as the original branches were in their time.


Each according to its kind. A physical race has physical laws. A spiritual race has spiritual laws. Do you see the difference?


Each according to its kind.

Long ago there were chariot races. The first one over the line was the winner. Today we have formula one...a LOT faster...nothing to compare in speed...and yet the same rules apply. The first over the line is still the winner.

Under the law people are not to break the law outwardly. It's based on an outward race. Under grace we are held to a MUCH higher standard...so that even a thought is counted as sin. To whom much is given MORE is required. Like having a handicap in golf.

Grace empowers us to not sin...even in thought. The law can't do that.


Don't confuse the universal calling in Christ with the prophetic use of scriptures that work for all levels.


Ask, seek and knock...by faith...until grace is received to walk as Jesus walked.

That can only work if you see yourself as an Israelite in the wilderness.
Well, as I have asked you before.............what is the much more that we have been given that makes us different from unbelieving unredeemed Jews under the Law? You seem to deny that we have been given anything.
 

Hepzibah

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Who am I sister...........just trying to understand some things. Battling with brain fog today. Paul wrote that "in me (that is in my flesh) is no good thing". I doubt that will ever not be true for anyone in this life then.....?

Flesh is full of corruption that is why it has to go to the cross.
 

Ritajanice

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We are Born Again of incorruptible seed..we don’t put it on!.

The word of the Lord is Alive and Active.....it’s not dead!

Hebrews 4:12 12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

Isaiah 55:11King James Version (KJV) so shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.



being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For All flesh is as grass, And all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever.

Romans 8

Romans 8:9-11​

King James Version​

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Berean Standard BiblePar ▾
Walking by the Spirit
(Ezekiel 36:16–38; Galatians 5:16–26)
1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.a2For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set youb free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin.c He thus condemned sin in the flesh, 4so that the righteous standard of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5Those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6The mind of the flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace,7because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the fleshd cannot please God.
9You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alivee because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the deadf will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit, who lives in you.
 
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Episkopos

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Well, as I have asked you before.............what is the much more that we have been given that makes us different from unbelieving unredeemed Jews under the Law? You seem to deny that we have been given anything.
Look, I've tried explaining this to you so many times. I'll try another colour.

I have said that being under grace brings a new level of expectation from God. Can a motorcycle compete at the tour de France? Why not? So you are asking me if a motorcycle goes faster than a bicycle???

Do you realize that each kind of race has its own standard? Under grace we need to walk as Jesus walked in order to OBEY the gospel.

In your thinking there is only one race and that nothing distinguishes how much ability we receive. So for you in your mind...to whom much is given LESS is required...or at least no more than to those who have not received grace.
 

Lizbeth

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Very plainly Paul wrote that he was not a qualified judge himself to say he had no sin. He also said, again quite plainly, that he had "not yet attained". He also wrote that God will be working in us throughout our lives bringing us to completion.

Any view we hold has to accommodate those things, or it cannot be considered correct.

Much love!
Amen. I agree. Paul didn't use terms such as being sinless in describing himself. Think Jesus is the only one about whom such terms as "without sin" and "sinless" can be applied. Being like Him means to walk as He walked, walking in the spirit in holiness....but as long as we are in these flesh bodies with it's old man nature I don't see how we can be sin-less in fact until our flesh dies and is destroyed in the grave. Though it is imputed to us meanwhile.
 
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Ritajanice

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Romans 6
Berean Standard BiblePar ▾
Dead to Sin, Alive to God
(2 Corinthians 4:7–18)
1What then shall we say? Shall we continue in sin so that grace may increase?2Certainly not! How can we who died to sin live in it any longer? 3Or aren’t you aware that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4We were therefore buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may walk in newness of life.
5For if we have been united with Him like this in His death, we will certainly also be united with Him in His resurrection. 6We know that our old self was crucified with Him so that the body of sin might be rendered powerless, that we should no longer be slaves to sin. 7For anyone who has died has been freed from sin.
8Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with Him. 9For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, He cannot die again; death no longer has dominion over Him. 10The death He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life He lives, He lives to God. 11So you too must count yourselves dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its desires.13Do not present the parts of your body to sin as instruments of wickedness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and present the parts of your body to Him as instruments of righteousness. 14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.
The Wages of Sin
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law, but under grace? Certainly not! 16Do you not know that when you offer yourselves as obedient slaves, you are slaves to the one you obey, whether you are slaves to sin leading to death, or to obedience leading to righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that, though you once were slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were committed. 18You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
19I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to escalating wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness.
20For when you were slaves to sin, you were free of obligation to righteousness.21What fruit did you reap at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? The outcome of those things is death. 22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the fruit you reap leads to holiness, and the outcome is eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Romans 6:10-11. The Spirit of God, who raised Jesus from the dead, lives in you. And just as God raised Christ Jesus from the dead, he will give life to your mortal bodies by this same Spirit living within you.
 

marks

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Amen. I agree. Paul didn't use terms such as being sinless in describing himself. Think Jesus is the only one about whom such terms as "without sin" and "sinless" can be applied. Being like Him means to walk as He walked, walking in the spirit in holiness....but as long as we are in these flesh bodies with it's old man nature I don't see how we can be sin-less in fact until our flesh dies and is destroyed in the grave. Though it is imputed to us meanwhile.
The corruptible will put on incorruptibility, but until then we remain in corruptible flesh. The way Paul wrote to the Philippian church, "we are waiting for Jesus, who will transform "the body of our humilition" to be like unto His glorious body.

I agree . . . our bodies, being from Adam's line, their nature has been corrupted, and naturally produce sinful thoughts and behaviors. They can be controlled by the power God gives us, but their nature won't be changed until we are physically transformed to be like Jesus is.

And I likewise agree, that we are given God's Own righteousness, accredited to us, allowing us to know God, to commune with God, in the intimacy of a spirit united to His spirit. God doesn't join Himself to prostitutes. It's like the leper. No one could touch a leper, lest they be unclean. Jesus touched the leper, but instead of Jesus becoming unclean, the leper was no longer a leper. So Jesus could touch him without violation of the law. Because His touch heals.

I see the same in us. His Spirit enters us, and makes us holy and righteous by His touch. "So it is 'no more I'", we are truly changed by His touch.

Much love!
 
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Ritajanice

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Hadn't Paul's flesh gone to the cross?
I can’t find that in the word?

I can’t find the Spirit enters us either, can you?

Only a Born Again can see the Kingdom Of God....once we start adding our own words to Gods word...it then makes no sense.

When the Spirit enters us?

2 Corinthians 12:7
Audio Crossref Comment Greek
Verse (Click for Chapter)
New International Version
or because of these surpassingly great revelations. Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me.

New Living Translation
even though I have received such wonderful revelations from God. So to keep me from becoming proud, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger from Satan to torment me and keep me from becoming proud.

English Standard Version
So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited.

Berean Standard Bible
or because of these surpassingly great revelations. So to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me
 
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Ritajanice

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So you don't think Paul was saved?
I asked for scripture that says Paul’s flesh went to the cross?

Saying Paul’s flesh went to the cross is confusing, God is not a God of confusion.

Did I say I don’t think Paul was saved?.."please don’t put “ your”words into my mouth.

Paul met with God on the road to Damascus did he not?

Acts 9:3-9​

King James Version​

3 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
8 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.
9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.
 
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marks

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"Paul states in his letter to the Romans that there was something “in the members” of his body that he calls “my flesh,” which produced difficulty in his Christian life and made him a prisoner of sin.
I don't think he said that though. That the flesh was in his members? "Flesh" is the stuff bodies are made of. "Members" refers to "body parts", like arms and legs.

just that in putting him off and "reckoning" him dead we would not be walking in him, but walking in Christ, His Spirit, instead.
We are to reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive to God, because our perception of ourselves may communicate to ourselves that we are not dead to sin.

This is where the Biblical meaning of death is important. Dead, in the Bible, doesn't specifically mean "inactive", it means separated. Physical death is when the soul is separated from the body. Spiritual death is the spirit separated from God.

John saw "the dead" standing before the great white throne. These have been separated from their bodies, yet they are here standing before God being judged.

We've been separated from our flesh bodies where sin lives by virtue of a new creation. We are no longer alive in the flesh, we are alive in Christ. Yet this flesh, with its corrupt nature, is our only vehicle for interacting in this material world. Driving a wrecked car.

So even though we may not appear to ourselves to be dead to sin, because we still see it active in our fleshiness, just the same, we truly have been separated from it, and we truly are no longer under its power. It only looks like it when we aren't trusting that this is so, and in our lack of faith, not walking in the Spirit.


Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin, that destroyed really means put out of action, whereas previously destroyed meant just that. I believe the former, but that something can be destroyed in the spiritual realm yet come back to life.

Romans 6:6 KJV
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

I read this as a statement of potential. Our old man is crucified with Him, "is", this is a certainty. From my studies I've concluded the correct understanding of katargethe, here translated destroyed, is "rendered powerless", unactivated, like that. That we are crucified with Christ - factually true - but that the rendering of our body powerless is "might be".

What makes the "might be" into an experiential reality is that we reckon ourselves dead indeed to sin and alive to God in Jesus Christ our Lord.

A Definition of the “Flesh”
The Greek word for “flesh” in the New Testament is sarx, a term that can often in Scripture refer to the physical body. However, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature describes the word this way: “the physical body as functioning entity; in Paul’s thought esp., all parts of the body constitute a totality known as flesh, which is dominated by sin to such a degree that wherever flesh is, all forms of sin are likewise present, and no good thing can live.” What is the flesh? | GotQuestions.org
I'd agree with this statement. Flesh is more than just the substance of our material being, but also the product of that substance. I like the words, "the physical body as a functioning entity", I think that says it well. The flesh, with it's fleshiness.

As you and I know quite well, our brain's biology has a profound affect on what and how we think and feel. And we also know that it can change, even healing, when we are walking in the Way. Even if we are not walking in the Spirit, making the right choices itself brings healing.

Much love!
 
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marks

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This interpretation of when we put on incorruptible is debatable and makes no sense to me to be in the next life.
Mortal putting on immortality and corruptible putting on incorruptibility both refer to the changing of the nature of our material being. No longer subject to death, and no longer subject to the corruption of sin.

Much like Paul wrote to the Philippians,

Philippians 3:20-21 KJV
20) For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21) Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Here is Young's translation:

Philippians 3:21 YLT
21) who shall transform the body of our humiliation to its becoming conformed to the body of his glory, according to the working of his power, even to subject to himself the all things.

Much love!
 

marks

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So you spent a period there?
Extended, once, otherwise, inconsistently, as I think we all do.

And it didn't fit the rules others give, but I believe God is unique with each of us, formulas will always fall short, and may or may not describe how God is working with this or that person. Maybe a number of people find commonality with each other and come to consider that such and such only happens after this of that way.

In my case it was without preamble at a low moment in my life but not lower than other times, nor anything other than God's choice to cause it to be.

I think of this as having been remedial, to show me something I didn't really believe could exist in this life, but I know it can. And it does, to the extent that I forget about any concerns having to do with myself, and to know that I'm fully reconciled to God, that there is nothing I can or cannot do that will change my reconciliation to Him. My reconciliation is not based in my behavior, it's based in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, an accomplished fact that does not change.

But having come to experience this, I learned what it was like, and now I know how to be that way, only I still remain inconsistant, I still can get triggered. At the heart it's about faith, that even if I'm on a downswing I remain reconciled, even if it's a rough ride, just hold on, He's not letting me go.

Since I'm fully reconciled, when I veer from the Way, I know there is no prerequisite to returning to it, only, according to my faith.

Much love!
 
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Hepzibah

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I asked for scripture that says Paul’s flesh went to the cross?

Galatians 2:20

King James Version

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
 
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Ritajanice

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Galatians 2:20​

King James Version​

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
That is not saying Paul’s flesh went to the cross.you said his flesh went to the cross..now you post this scripture..interpretation that it’s saying Paul’s flesh went to the cross...sowing confusion @Hepzibah ..imo.


That is saying we are crucified with Christ....nothing to do with Paul whatsoever and his flesh going to the cross..that is not biblical.

We are crucified with Christ the moment our spirit becomes Born Again @Hepzibah ?

How would we know that we are crucified with Christ,just by reading the penned word?

Much more to it than that...