The Way/Theosis/entire sanctification.
- Thread starter Hepzibah
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
The best thing I can suggest to you is to do the word study, to see how the Bible uses both those words, flesh, and body, in relation to sin. I believe it is very Scriptural.
I don't know any place in the Bible that speaks of an "old nature", only that everything has a nature. The flesh's nature is corrupt, and the spirit's nature is righteous. I can't think of any place that speaks of a person's "nature" as anything other than the person they are.
There was no "sin nature" that was crucified with Christ, we ourselves are crucified with Christ, leading to our death, and our resurrection in Christ.
Rom_1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
There is a nature to our bodies, and homosexuality is against that nature.
Rom_2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
They naturally do these things.
Rom_2:27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
When they naturally do what accompanies circumcision.
Rom_11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
A naturally wild tree, a naturally domestic tree.
1Co_11:14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
All these are the same, they describe what is natural. By nature.
Gal_2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
Gal_4:8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
Eph_2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Heb_2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Jas_3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
2Pe_1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
Nature references the properties of the being, rather than a "force of evil" or "force of good" that somehow rests upon a person.
Much love!
Dan Clarkston
Well-Known Member
They are definitely wrong on how to be saved so there won't be an RCC peoples in God's Kingdom.
@marks
The 'outer-man' needs to be broken, the body of sin. In its unbroken state it prevents the spirit from flowing out in its purity. It mixes with the prominent feature of the outer man which is our main characteristic. The Lord shines His light and we see this and it is burned away for ever. We cannot stand in His sight and are 'undone' when we realise the extent of 'self' even in His service with its self seeking. We do not need to do anything. It is done for us when the light shines in and we see it.
This is what Romans 7 is about – the time in Paul’s life when the light fell on him and he was undone. He, like many others since, saw that he was not walking the walk although he was in obedience to God yet, he remained unable to stop the unintentional sins like his thoughts, which Jesus had said are also sin. He knew all about the ‘outer’ sins as a Pharisee, but now, what was required was much stricter and he failed.
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Heb 4:12.
The spirit is then freed from its imprisonment in its hard unbroken outer shell, the soul which is part of the flesh. When it flows out, it brings with it the Lord's Spirit joined to it. This is what touches people and what brings refreshment, and not just words or emotion.
The Lord has removed the veil and opened the way into the sanctuary. Jesus entered in with His blood as the sacrifice required, our Great High Priest led the way and opened it up for us, that we may enter in, into God's Holy presence and into God's rest that He has preserved for the people of God. He removed the veil, rent it in two and said Today, if thou hearest my voice, harden not your hearts as in the day of the provocation, but with boldness enter in.
This is what delivered Paul, when he saw the work which needed to be done by God alone which had nothing to do with his obedience. He just had to step back and believe and it is done in a flash. Entire Sanctification.
The 'outer-man' needs to be broken, the body of sin. In its unbroken state it prevents the spirit from flowing out in its purity. It mixes with the prominent feature of the outer man which is our main characteristic. The Lord shines His light and we see this and it is burned away for ever. We cannot stand in His sight and are 'undone' when we realise the extent of 'self' even in His service with its self seeking. We do not need to do anything. It is done for us when the light shines in and we see it.
This is what Romans 7 is about – the time in Paul’s life when the light fell on him and he was undone. He, like many others since, saw that he was not walking the walk although he was in obedience to God yet, he remained unable to stop the unintentional sins like his thoughts, which Jesus had said are also sin. He knew all about the ‘outer’ sins as a Pharisee, but now, what was required was much stricter and he failed.
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Heb 4:12.
The spirit is then freed from its imprisonment in its hard unbroken outer shell, the soul which is part of the flesh. When it flows out, it brings with it the Lord's Spirit joined to it. This is what touches people and what brings refreshment, and not just words or emotion.
The Lord has removed the veil and opened the way into the sanctuary. Jesus entered in with His blood as the sacrifice required, our Great High Priest led the way and opened it up for us, that we may enter in, into God's Holy presence and into God's rest that He has preserved for the people of God. He removed the veil, rent it in two and said Today, if thou hearest my voice, harden not your hearts as in the day of the provocation, but with boldness enter in.
This is what delivered Paul, when he saw the work which needed to be done by God alone which had nothing to do with his obedience. He just had to step back and believe and it is done in a flash. Entire Sanctification.
"Paul states in his letter to the Romans that there was something “in the members” of his body that he calls “my flesh,” which produced difficulty in his Christian life and made him a prisoner of sin. Martin Luther, in his preface to the book of Romans, commented on Paul’s use of “flesh” by saying, “Thou must not understand ‘flesh,’ therefore, as though that only were ‘flesh’ which is connected with unchastity, but St. Paul uses ‘flesh’ of the whole man, body, and soul, reason, and all his faculties included, because all that is in him longs and strives after the flesh.” Luther’s comments point out that “flesh” equates to affections and desires that run contrary to God, not only in the area of sexual activity, but in every area of life.
To get a solid understanding of the term “flesh” requires examining its usage and definition in Scripture, how it manifests in the life of both believers and unbelievers, the consequences it produces, and how it can ultimately be overcome.
A Definition of the “Flesh”
The Greek word for “flesh” in the New Testament is sarx, a term that can often in Scripture refer to the physical body. However, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature describes the word this way: “the physical body as functioning entity; in Paul’s thought esp., all parts of the body constitute a totality known as flesh, which is dominated by sin to such a degree that wherever flesh is, all forms of sin are likewise present, and no good thing can live.” What is the flesh? | GotQuestions.org
To get a solid understanding of the term “flesh” requires examining its usage and definition in Scripture, how it manifests in the life of both believers and unbelievers, the consequences it produces, and how it can ultimately be overcome.
A Definition of the “Flesh”
The Greek word for “flesh” in the New Testament is sarx, a term that can often in Scripture refer to the physical body. However, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature describes the word this way: “the physical body as functioning entity; in Paul’s thought esp., all parts of the body constitute a totality known as flesh, which is dominated by sin to such a degree that wherever flesh is, all forms of sin are likewise present, and no good thing can live.” What is the flesh? | GotQuestions.org
The bible says we are GOD's workmanship, true? And that having BEGUN IN THE SPIRIT we are not now going to be perfected by the flesh. It's a matter of learning and battling and getting to a place of submitting to HIS righteousness which is within us by His Spirit. It is the LORD who is working in our lives and chastising us as sons that we may partake of His holiness, because who has suffered in the flesh is done with sin. And His Spirit HELPS us. He is the Potter and we are the clay. This is why we will lay our crowns at His feet....because only HE is worthy. So there is a big difference between old testament law keepers and those who have encountered Christ by faith and received the spirit of adoption and are now fighting the good fight of FAITH. The least in the kingdom of God is greater than the greatest under the Law. You are still denying and despising the day of small beginnings...the foundation of our faith.
I believe what you are saying in a general way, and scriptures do seem to point to that..... but just not sure about the specific details and "mechanics" of it all. Whether it is a state of literally "being sinless" or rather a state of walking "above" and in victory over our flesh/carnal nature and its sins.
Since John said it is not true to say we "have" no sin. I can understand how being in a state of walking separated from one's flesh and sins would "seem" and "feel" as though one is sinless.......just that the flesh still does exist in fact while we are still alive on earth.....this is proved actually since one can still fall back into the flesh from walking in the spirit. Bible says if we "walk in the Spirit we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh"....that seems to imply the flesh and it's lusts are still there but just are rendered powerless or inert so to speak when one is walking in the spirit. And in walking in the spirit, while in that state one is "delivered" from the whole "body of death" as a whole body, not just dealing with specific sins one at a time.
Language of the bible is in terms of "reckoning" our old man to be dead and crucified and to put on Christ and put off the old man. So it seems our "old man" still exists in fact, just that in putting him off and "reckoning" him dead we would not be walking in him, but walking in Christ, His Spirit, instead. Because we are still waiting for when corruptible puts on incorruptible at the time of our death...the redemption of our bodies which includes the soul (hence the salvation of our souls). That is when the old man and its carnal nature will be destroyed in fact, along with our bodies. We still "have" sin existing in our flesh and old man but need to come to a place of no longer walking in it....how I'm seeing those scrips.
Jesus is the author and finisher of faith.
Ahem. You just said we are NOT going to be perfected by the flesh. So then learning and battling are OUT.
The holy walk is about being hidden in God. He does the fighting for us there. There is no battling except against the lies that war outside of us. If we walk in the light we have arrived where we should be. From there the training is to hold fast by faith, looking neither to the right or the left or behind.
Otherwise, yes. Submitting to the righteousness of God in the fear of the Lord as we battle the flesh when we are ABSENT from the Lord. Doing all to be accepted by Him.
False...you are despising holiness if there is any despising going on. I maintain that holiness is NOT attained by any human effort...but is a gift of God by grace through faith. Sanctification is instantaneous.
Only those who walk in resurrection life are being conformed to Christ. Otherwise it is just about learning how to be righteous.
Since Evangelicalism knows neither standard...they fulfill neither standard...so as to be rejected as we read of so many that are such when the final judgment comes. Will many fear the Lord and depart from iniquity? No. They have drawn a bad lot...Azazel (the escape goat), and are ready to be cast into the wilderness to wander there forever (outer darkness).
Would anyone in that situation fear the Lord and learn real doctrine? I'm hoping that a few will stop, stumbling over Christ, being offended and shutting their ears to the truth long enough to turn to God and be healed.
Last edited:
Pavel Mosko
Member
I honestly don't know anything about that. My only knowledge of the RCC is reading some articles on "Divinization" where it often comes across that it more or less is an equivalent term for Theosis. I also was a semi-regular web poster in 2008-2010 on such Eastern Catholic web sites as "Catholic Answers" (when they had an Eastern Catholic sub board and the Byzantine Catholic dot com.
I did find the Eastern Catholics of both those web sites very knowledgeable of both East and West. (Actually, a pretty good percentage of them almost seemed to have Eastern envy) Anyway a number of them were very conversant in Saint Thomas Aquinas and how his work ties together Eastern and Western theologies like lets say Palamitism (all the "Energy" and "Essence" talk you get from the EO etc.). I would say they were very well read in general.
Besides that I would recommend the end of this video scroll past the 40 minute mark to the last 15 minutes or so of the video. As a person who was in the Coptic Church I found it very informative. Copts and Orientale Orthodox are often very EO positive in theology. I guess that comes from the shared Greek Christian heritage. Anyway, I found the Coptic Church I was in really embracing EO books like "The Orthodox Way" by bishop Kallistos Ware when it came to teaching adult Sunday School and Bible class (that book was also a favorite of mine before I joined the congregation). Anyway, what I did come to realize is the Coptic Church kind of has it's own tradition and heritage on the topic which is a bit of hybrid of the EO and RCC. Which is kind of funny because I also found that phenomena previously concerning church art and iconography the Copts have their own heritage of that too that died out only to be resurrected in recent times, but previously they ended up using art from the EO and RCC in their churches. I'm guessing the sharia law they sometimes lived under might have contributed to that, but anyway here is the video.
The details of it all are not to be the subjects of debate or intellectual understanding. Holiness teachers will often disagree. We find out on the journey and the most important thing if we want to get there, is to listen to the Holy Spirit carefully, especially on the 'little things' and begin to obey that voice immediately and get into that habit. If we obey the light we are given we receive more light.
As Paul is struggling with unintentional sin in Romans 7, and is then delivered as he enters the next chapter, I think we can get the picture.
This issue was a big thing in the past when the Keswick Movement came along in England, and said that in Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin, that destroyed really means put out of action, whereas previously destroyed meant just that. I believe the former, but that something can be destroyed in the spiritual realm yet come back to life.
See above. The flesh meaning the old man. Of course, if one has never experienced walking without sin, then one cannot get ones head around the concept.
This interpretation of when we put on incorruptible is debatable and makes no sense to me to be in the next life.
Sin is still in the flesh but the flesh is crucified if we are willing to make the sacrifice.
Very plainly Paul wrote that he was not a qualified judge himself to say he had no sin. He also said, again quite plainly, that he had "not yet attained". He also wrote that God will be working in us throughout our lives bringing us to completion.
Any view we hold has to accommodate those things, or it cannot be considered correct.
Much love!
Last edited:
Ritajanice
Born-Again
Romans 6:6
“Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.”
King James Version (KJV)
< Previous Verse
Next Verse >
▲ View Chapter
Romans 6:6 Context
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: 9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.Romans 6:14-23
King James Version
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Last edited:
With that being said, I agree, that we stop trying, and start trusting, and that's when God delivers us.
That deliverance may be for a 5 minute stretch of walking in the Spirit, or 5 days, or 5 years, whatever it is God is doing with us, and whatever state of maturity we've so far attained.
Much love!
Last edited:
@marks: Very plainly Paul wrote that he was not a qualified judge himself to say he had no sin. He also said, again quite plainly, that he had "not yet attained". He also wrote that God will be working in us throughout our lives bringing us to completion.
Many cling to the verses, and others that you mention to prove that we cannot stop sinning in this life, but they are taken out of context, the most usual being:
Phil. 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
He desired to be martyred, which was considered to be the high calling in the early years. Then he says let the perfect ones agree, and God would reveal it if not yet perfect.
He has already said:
Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe 1 Thess 2:10
and encouraged others to 'copy' him. Why would a sinner dare do that?
Other quotations? God gives man a 'get out' so as not to force His will on anybody. The verses that seem to oppose must be taken with regards to the rest of scripture, and as we have seen, Romans 7.
.
Many cling to the verses, and others that you mention to prove that we cannot stop sinning in this life, but they are taken out of context, the most usual being:
Phil. 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.
He desired to be martyred, which was considered to be the high calling in the early years. Then he says let the perfect ones agree, and God would reveal it if not yet perfect.
He has already said:
Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe 1 Thess 2:10
and encouraged others to 'copy' him. Why would a sinner dare do that?
Other quotations? God gives man a 'get out' so as not to force His will on anybody. The verses that seem to oppose must be taken with regards to the rest of scripture, and as we have seen, Romans 7.
.
What can you tell me about who/what is this "outer man", and also the "inner man"?
Much love!
The inner man is the spirit - our core. The outer man is where we relate to the world and the flesh in my understanding.
Do you not yet understand that this is not me? I cling to the Bible, not particular verses.
But more to the point, I'm not trying to prove that we cannot stop sinning in this life. I'm not. I'm really not.
I've had that taste also. I know what it it. I also know that we walk in the Spirit by faith, and that faith being in the truth that Jesus has in fact reconciled us - fully - to God.
Exactly!! Well stated!
Romans 5:1-2 KJV
1) Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2) By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Now here is the question. Do you require that God provide an additional work to what He has already done with you that you would be able to walk in the Spirit by faith? Or do you believe as I do, that as we may have that faith today, we may walk in the Spirit today, as we have already been given what we need to do so?
He just had to step back and believe and it is done in a flash.
Are we waiting for God to give a "second benefit" before this will work for us? For you? For me? Or, if you believe, today, this way, will you walk in the Spirit today? Even now? I know the answer is yes.
Much love!
Ritajanice
Born-Again
Ephesians 3
King James Version
3 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.
13 Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.
14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
Sorry marks, I am speaking to other readers too when I write.
It all happened on the cross. It is just a matter of having it made a reality. But there is a point of entering in, whereby we reckon it is so. Stepping out in faith as it were. I remember the day that it felt like stepping of the edge of a cliff. Would I fall of it? I had to trust God was there with His arms ready.
I think that our heart must be right and our desire for it being more than for anything else. If we lose the blessing which I have a number of times, it is not so easy to get back. I am longing for it now especially as I am teaching it here. One time I get it back just by saying 'it is so' but that does not work now.
God is doing some really deep healing of trauma for me atm which could be the reason. Anyone standing up and preaching this with power is really going to be under fire.
So you spent a period there?
The point I'm making is that there is a big difference between unbelieving Jews under the Law and people who have encountered the Lord and come to faith in Christ and have been made alive spiritually. You seem to maintain that there is no difference at all, apparently. The starting point for a believer is not the same as an unbeliever under Law....we are not on the same "level". There are things in scripture that speaks to the unbelieving Jew first on one level, and "then" speaks to the believing Gentile (mostly Gentile church) on another level. To the Jew first, then the Gentile.
No as I've said numerous times, I'm not denying or despising holiness....just trying to understand and rightly divide what scripture is saying or showing with respect to what it means and how we get there etc. I do believe that the story of the Israelites was written for our example and that it seems to show a "second blessing" as it were, for the believer.
