A Question for Jehovah's Witnesses

[Runningman]

Dont go beyond the beginning. The Word already was. That's what we have been given.

Jesus made a statement about before the beginning. He said "Before the world was" so we need to focus on that part. The Word is only said to be in the beginning and spoken of as God in the past tense, not the present tense, i.e., the Word was God. There is a difference here and yes it's important.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Greetings Aunty Jane,

"Jehovah" is an erroneous rendition of the YHWH Name, and most scholars prefer Yahweh. This is explained in early JW literature but is suppressed in most modern JW literature.

Thank you for that information Trevor, but it is entirely wrong. We do accept either, but for the sake of simplicity we chose to use just the English translation in our Bibles. Jehovah has been used for centuries and is widely accepted so we have no hesitation in using what is common in our language. To not use God’s name and to substitute a mere title in his own word, (almost 7000 times) we believe is disrespectful and in direct disobedience to Jesus own words in the Lord’s Prayer.....”hallowed by they name” is what many still say, but never do. It doesnt say “hallowed be they title”...does it?

We believe that Jehovah knows his name in all languages.....because he doesn’t just speak English.
This is why I cannot understand people clinging to the old KJV.....does God only speak archaic English?
He is the creator of all language, is he not? He hears the prayers of his people in all nations....in all languages. There is a long list of the various ways people say God’s name in their language.....I assure you, he is not hung up on Hebrew......why then do the accusers still call Jesus by his English name? Do you call him Yeshua?

This is nothing more than another excuse to fail to obey Christ’s teachings. There are many more.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Aunty Jane,

Thank you for that information Trevor, but it is entirely wrong. We do accept either, but for the sake of simplicity we chose to use just the English translation in our Bibles. Jehovah has been used for centuries and is widely accepted so we have no hesitation in using what is common in our language.

Jehovah is recognised as an incorrect rendition of the YHWH Name and many scholars suggest Yahweh.

Strongs' gives the following definitions and this gives some indication why the erroneous form "Jehovah" occurred. "Jehovah" is based upon reading the wrong vowel points into YHWH:

3068 יהוה, יְהוִה [Yâhovah /yeh·ho·vaw/] n pr dei. From 1961; 6519 occurrences; AV translates as “LORD” 6510 times, “GOD” four times, “JEHOVAH” four times, and “variant” once. 1 the proper name of the one true God. 1A unpronounced except with the vowel pointings of 0136.

3069 יהוה, יְהוִה [Yâhovih /yeh·ho·vee/] n pr dei. A variation of 3068 [used after 136, and pronounced by Jews as 430, in order to prevent the repetition of the same sound, since they elsewhere pronounce 3068 as 136]; 305 occurrences; AV translates as “GOD” 304 times, and “LORD” once. 1 Jehovah—used primarily in the combination ‘Lord Jehovah’. 1A equal to 3068 but pointed with the vowels of 0430.
Enhanced Strong’s Lexicon. Woodside Bible Fellowship.

The above information is also contained in the following taken from the early JW Book:
Excerpts from JW Book Aid to Bible Understanding - Article Jehovah

I was interested in reading the article “Jehovah” pages 882-895 in the JW Book Aid to Bible Understanding. The following are a few excerpts that I found to be relevant to the subject of the derivation of the erroneous rendition "Jehovah".

Page 882: “Jehovah” is the best known English pronunciation of the divine name, but “Yahweh” is preferred by most scholars.

Page 884: The time did come, however, when in reading the Hebrew Scriptures in the original language, the Jewish reader substituted either ‘Adho-nay’ (Lord) or ‘Elo-him’ (God) rather than pronounce the divine name represented by the Tetragrammaton. This is seen from the fact that when vowel pointing came into use in the second half of the first millennium C.E. the Jewish copyists inserted the vowel points for either ‘Adho-nay’ or ‘Elo-him’ into the Tetragrammaton, evidently to warn the reader to say those words in place of pronouncing the divine name.

Pages 884-885: The pronunciations “Jehovah” and “Yahweh”: By combining the vowel signs of ‘Adho-nay’ and ‘Elo-him’ with the four consonants of the Tetragrammaton the pronunciations ‘Yeho-wah’ and ‘Yeho-wih’ were formed. The first of these provided the basis for the Latinised form “Jehova(h)”. The first recorded use of this form dates from the thirteenth century C.E. Raymundus Martini, a Spanish monk of the Dominican Order, used it in his book Pugco Fidei of the year 1270. Hebrew scholars generally favour “Yahweh” as the most likely pronunciation.

Page 888: Moses raised the question: “Suppose I am now come to the sons of Israel and I do say to them, ‘The God of your forefathers has sent me to you,’ and they do say to me ‘What is his name?’ What shall I say to them?” … Moses’ question was a meaningful one. God’s reply in Hebrew was “’Eh-yeh’ asher eh-yeh’.” While some translations render this as “I AM THAT I AM,” the Hebrew verb (ha-yah’) from which the word ‘eh-yeh’ is drawn does not mean simply to exist. Rather, it means to come into existence, to happen, occur, become, take on (an attribute), enter upon (a state), or constitute. Thus, the footnote of the Revised Standard Version gives as one reading “I Will Be What I Will Be”.

This is nothing more than another excuse to fail to obey Christ’s teachings.

When I read from the KJV at our meeting I always say "Yahweh" when I encounter "LORD" or "GOD". We do not hear "Jehovah" mentioned in our meetings, and I associate "Jehovah" with a few old hymns and the JWs. Rotherham's translation uses "Yahweh" throughout the OT and also so do a few other translations. Alect Motyer in his two recent books uses "Yahweh" in his new translations of the Psalms and Isaiah. Yes, I consider it important to use God's Name and also distinguish the various titles of God. Especially is it important to understand the meaning of the Yahweh Name. I am not sure if the JWs teach or understand properly the meaning of the Yahweh Name.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Aunty Jane]

@TrevorHL I am fully aware of the information you shared as I have been one of Jehovah’s Witnesses for over 50 years. You honestly think I don’t know what I am talking about?
It seems that you have completely missed the reasons why we chose “Jehovah” and not Yahweh. (Yet we accept that both are appropriate) One is a translation and the other a transliteration. We know the difference. Since there is no “J” in the Hebrew alphabet, it would mean that all the “J” names in the Bible would have to be changed since most of them incorporate the divine name….including “Jesus”.

It seemed inappropriate to alter the whole Bible translation when Jehovah speaks all languages and knows his name in every tongue. Where does God quibble over the pronunciation of his name? And why did the Jews stop saying it? Did God command them to do that?
Exodus 3:13-15 in the Jewish Tanakh gives them no permission and shows complete disobedience in their doing so.

13 And Moses said to God, "Behold I come to the children of Israel, and I say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, 'What is His name?' what shall I say to them?"		יגוַיֹּ֨אמֶר משֶׁ֜ה אֶל־הָֽאֱלֹהִ֗ים הִנֵּ֨ה אָֽנֹכִ֣י בָא֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ וְאָֽמַרְתִּ֣י לָהֶ֔ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י אֲבֽוֹתֵיכֶ֖ם שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם וְאָֽמְרוּ־לִ֣י מַה־שְּׁמ֔וֹ מָ֥ה אֹמַ֖ר אֲלֵהֶֽם:
14 God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'"		ידוַיֹּ֤אמֶר אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה וַיֹּ֗אמֶר כֹּ֤ה תֹאמַר֙ לִבְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה שְׁלָחַ֥נִי אֲלֵיכֶֽם:
15 And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation.		טווַיֹּ֩אמֶר֩ ע֨וֹד אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶל־משֶׁ֗ה כֹּ֣ה תֹאמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶ֗ם אֱלֹהֵ֨י אַבְרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם זֶה־שְּׁמִ֣י לְעֹלָ֔ם וְזֶ֥ה זִכְרִ֖י לְדֹ֥ר דֹּֽר:

“The LORD God” is יְהֹוָ֞ה…….and his name was to be “mentioned in every generation”….

For those who accept Jesus as God, it is extremely difficult to understand why “Jesus” is not a problem but “Jehovah” is…..the well known expression “hallelujah” (praise Jah) is an incorporation of the divine name with “Jah” as the shortened version of the Tetragrammaton. “Jah” occurs some 50 times in the Hebrew Scriptures. Would that be so if God was ultra-sensitive about how to say his name? His ancient servants used it freely and reverently in both forms.

So you are free to use your outdated KJV and put the divine name back where it belongs when you read it….but I believe that the ASV already did so.

To illustrate how absurd it is to include it in only 4 verses….
Exodus 3:13-15 KJV…
“ And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you. And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, the Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.”

And yet in Isa 42:8 it says….
” I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.”
“The LORD” is God’s title…it is not his name. And the divine name never meant “I Am” in the first place.
It is ridiculous to choose a mere 4 places to say God’s name in his own word, but refuse to utter it in thousands of other places……don’t you think?

It is of interest that the KJV was published in an edition that did put the divine name back where it had been substituted, but it was not accepted well by the churches apparently. That is very telling IMO.

You acknowledge that when you see the LORD written in capitals, you know that God’s name should be read. It’s a good thing to put it back where it belongs, but why not use a Bible that has already made that necessary adjustment? Why has Christendom virtually rejected the attempt in the Divine Name KJV to bring God’s name into their worship?
It makes the Lord’s Prayer ring hollow……
”Hallowed be thy name”……how do you sanctify a name you never say?
What name did Jesus say he had come to make known to his disciples? (John 17:26)

 

[tigger 2]

Greetings Aunty Jane,

"Jehovah" is an erroneous rendition of the YHWH Name, and most scholars prefer Yahweh. This is explained in early JW literature but is suppressed in most modern JW literature.

Kind regards
Trevor

...................................................
Ps. 83:18

KJV - That men may know that thou, whose name alone is Jehovah , art the most high over all the earth.

​

21st Century King James Version - ​

18 that men may know that Thou, whose name alone is Jehovah, art the Most High over all the earth.​

​

ASV - ​

That they may know that thou alone, whose name is Jehovah, Art the Most High over all the earth.​

​

Green's Literal Bible Psalms 83:18 - ​

And let them know Your name is Jehovah, that You alone are the Most High over all the earth.​

Living Bible - "... that you alone, Jehovah, are the God above all gods...." ​

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings tigger 2 and Greetings again Aunty Jane,

Ps. 83:18
KJV - That men may know that thou, whose name alone is Jehovah , art the most high over all the earth.
21st Century King James Version - 18 that men may know that Thou, whose name alone is Jehovah, art the Most High over all the earth.

ASV - That they may know that thou alone, whose name is Jehovah, Art the Most High over all the earth.​

Green's Literal Bible Psalms 83:18 - And let them know Your name is Jehovah, that You alone are the Most High over all the earth.​

Living Bible - "... that you alone, Jehovah, are the God above all gods...."

Yes, I am aware that various translations use "Jehovah". The American Committee of the ASV uses it consistently in the OT, whereas the English equivalent RV mainly follows the KJV and gives LORD and GOD when translating YHWH. I already mentioned that the KJV uses "Jehovah" only four times. I would have to check the other three to see if they are consistent throughout. This usage of "Jehovah" does not prove that Jehovah is the correct or best English translation of YHWH.

I am fully aware of the information you shared as I have been one of Jehovah’s Witnesses for over 50 years. You honestly think I don’t know what I am talking about?

Possibly many new JWs are unaware of the JW article that I quoted. For example the following is what is stated in the new JW literature:
JW book “What Can the Bible Teach Us?”
Chapter 1: Who is God?
Page 12: “God has told us that his name is Jehovah.”
Chapter 15: The right way to worship God
Page 156: “So, as God’s servants we follow Jesus’ example. We worship only Jehovah, we use his name, and we teach others God’s name and what he will do for us.”
I encountered a JW on another forum and he was convinced that "Jehovah" is 100% the correct translation. Perhaps he is a new JW, but possibly he has swallowed the modern emphasis and usage of "Jehovah" in the JW environment.

It seems that you have completely missed the reasons why we chose “Jehovah” and not Yahweh. (Yet we accept that both are appropriate) One is a translation and the other a transliteration.

"Jehovah" is an incorrect transliteration, as a result of using the wrong vowel points. Refer Strong's #3068 and #3069 and the JW article that I quoted.

Since there is no “J” in the Hebrew alphabet, it would mean that all the “J” names in the Bible would have to be changed since most of them incorporate the divine name….including “Jesus”.

That is a completely invalid explanation.

His ancient servants used it freely and reverently in both forms.

I agree that His ancient servants used both forms freely. They are found repeatedly spoken and written by the Psalmists and the Prophets.

So you are free to use your outdated KJV and put the divine name back where it belongs when you read it….but I believe that the ASV already did so.

The ASV uses the erroneous form "Jehovah". My main Bible is a RV/KJV Interlinear and the RV corrects and improves many words and verses of the KJV.

It is ridiculous to choose a mere 4 places to say God’s name in his own word, but refuse to utter it in thousands of other places……don’t you think?

I prefer using Yahweh in every occurrence.

You acknowledge that when you see the LORD written in capitals, you know that God’s name should be read. It’s a good thing to put it back where it belongs, but why not use a Bible that has already made that necessary adjustment?

I do not want to read from the NWT as it has other errors, for example Genesis 3:1 "cautious", compare the KJV and other translations. You have been around JW circles for 50 years and would be aware of this error as well.

What name did Jesus say he had come to make known to his disciples? (John 17:26)

I suggest that to use this to support "Jehovah" is the correct rendition is very empty, even though I have encountered this with the other JW - must be part of JW propaganda. God's Name here is speaking about the character of God, and what He would accomplish in and through Jesus, the Saviour, the Son of God.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[PS95]

@TrevorHL
God's Name here is speaking about the character of God, and what He would accomplish in and through Jesus, the Saviour, the Son of God. Jo 17:6

Thank you! --
(sadly, yes- it is part of the programming).

and continuing in John.. to John 17:11-12 we see..
"I am no longer going to be in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I am coming to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, so that they may be one just as We are. 12While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name, which You have given Me; and I guarded them, and not one of them perished except the son of destruction, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled."

If following JW logic they have tied themsleves into a screaming knot.

 

[PS95]

This is a summary of the testimony of Geoffrey Jackson, a member of Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses, before Australian Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Abuse on 14th August 2015.

While under oath, Governing Body member, Geoffrey Jackson was asked by Australia’s Angus Stewart: “Do you see yourselves as Jehovah God’s spokespeople on earth?” Jackson answered as follows:


Now, I ask any Jehovah's Witness here was Jackson speaking the truth? Is this "New Light"? or was this "theocratic warfare"? He also said they were "trying to fulfill that role" of the slave class, and yet when you read what they've stated in the past and currently today both in print and in video, they aren't "trying", they are "doing", they make no qualms about it. They are the slave class appointed by Jesus and complete obedience is required for salvation. Seems Jackson was speaking with a forked tongue.

Below is the complete video, the part in question is at the very beginning, around the 2-minute mark.

It's theocratic warfare aka LYING.. It can also be plainly seen in the same JW Australian Child molestation court video wherethe JW lawyer (who is a JW) flat out lies in court about how Jws dont shun. Incredible.
And yet, none of this will even bother a JW.
It is used on here constantly.

 

[PS95]

Jesus made a statement about before the beginning. He said "Before the world was" so we need to focus on that part. The Word is only said to be in the beginning and spoken of as God in the past tense, not the present tense, i.e., the Word was God. There is a difference here and yes it's important.

Sorry R-man- right over my head...

 

[Aunty Jane]

Possibly many new JWs are unaware of the JW article that I quoted. For example the following is what is stated in the new JW literature:
JW book “What Can the Bible Teach Us?”
Chapter 1: Who is God?
Page 12: “God has told us that his name is Jehovah.”

Yes...and many scholars have rendered God’s name this way in their translations....pick your scholars.
I don’t really think God cares how you say his name in your language, as long as you address him with appropriate reverence, out of a sincere heart. Pronunciation is a hang up of men, not Jehovah.
I am sure that the mention of this name means the same in any language....no one else has this name. It is unique to the Creator....and it’s a name he gave himself....

Chapter 15: The right way to worship God
Page 156: “So, as God’s servants we follow Jesus’ example. We worship only Jehovah, we use his name, and we teach others God’s name and what he will do for us.”
I encountered a JW on another forum and he was convinced that "Jehovah" is 100% the correct translation. Perhaps he is a new JW, but possibly he has swallowed the modern emphasis and usage of "Jehovah" in the JW environment.

And as far as is necessary, he is right. Since no one knows the correct pronunciation, all efforts to use God’s name from your heart will be met with his approval, rather than ignoring it altogether and substituting a title instead....imagine a well known author having his/her name removed from their own book, and substituted with the word “Author”.....It would be the height of disrespect.
God told Israel that God’s name was to be “mentioned in every generation”......should we allow Jewish disobedience to prevent us even trying to respect his name.

Jehovah" is an incorrect transliteration, as a result of using the wrong vowel points. Refer Strong's #3068 and #3069 and the JW article that I quoted.

Who said your way is correct.....since no one knows....perhaps you should just do you....and we will continue with our own choice. Jehovah knows his name in all languages. I am confident of that.

That is a completely invalid explanation.

Why invalid? If we alter the Bible to remove the name Jehovah, we then have to adjust every “J” name that incorporates the divine name......we will not say Jesus or Jeremiah or Joel or Joshua or Jonah....
Do you want the whole Bible changed to suit your particular beliefs?

I prefer using Yahweh in every occurrence.

You can prefer all you wish....your preferences mean nothing to anyone but yourself.

I do not want to read from the NWT as it has other errors, for example Genesis 3:1 "cautious", compare the KJV and other translations. You have been around JW circles for 50 years and would be aware of this error as well.

Are you serious?
This is a big translation issue for you?
I believe the Hebrew word is “ʿārûm” and it has a range of meanings.....
It can mean “shrewd” or “crafty” but there are other meanings....
One of them is “prudent” or “acting with or showing care and thought for the future.”
Another is “sensible”....so what is your problem with “cautious”? You don’t think that the devil is “cautious” and has “thoughts about the future”?

I suggest that to use this to support "Jehovah" is the correct rendition is very empty, even though I have encountered this with the other JW - must be part of JW propaganda. God's Name here is speaking about the character of God, and what He would accomplish in and through Jesus, the Saviour, the Son of God.

Like I said.....you do whatever you think is right.......there is nothing in your response that makes me want to jump ship.....it’s much ado about nothing really....we will all stand before the same judge....so let’s just see what he has to say about these things....I see nothing earth shattering....as usual.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Aunty Jane,

I don’t really think God cares how you say his name in your language, as long as you address him with appropriate reverence, out of a sincere heart. Pronunciation is a hang up of men, not Jehovah.

I was speaking of the derivation not the pronunciation. "Jehovah" is an incorrect rendition of the YHWH Name.

Since no one knows the correct pronunciation

"Jehovah" is erroneous.

Who said your way is correct.....since no one knows....perhaps you should just do you....and we will continue with our own choice. Jehovah knows his name in all languages. I am confident of that.

Perhaps you are reticent to in any way consider Strong's as JWs are discouraged to use outside reference material. You seem to want to dismiss or ignore the earlier JW article.

Seeing you like quoting Hebrew and possibly you can read Hebrew,, perhaps you could explain the two different forms of YHWH in the following, one translated "GOD", the other translated "LORD". Check the different vowel points:
Isaiah 50:4–11 (KJV): 4 The Lord GOD hath given me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to him that is weary: he wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the learned. 5 The Lord GOD hath opened mine ear, and I was not rebellious, neither turned away back. 6 I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting. 7 For the Lord GOD will help me; therefore shall I not be confounded: therefore have I set my face like a flint, and I know that I shall not be ashamed. 8 He is near that justifieth me; who will contend with me? let us stand together: who is mine adversary? let him come near to me. 9 Behold, Lord GOD will help me; who is he that shall condemn me? lo, they all shall wax old as a garment; the moth shall eat them up. 10 Who is among you that feareth the LORD, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the LORD, and stay upon his God. 11 Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.

Why invalid? If we alter the Bible to remove the name Jehovah, we then have to adjust every “J” name that incorporates the divine name......we will not say Jesus or Jeremiah or Joel or Joshua or Jonah....
Do you want the whole Bible changed to suit your particular beliefs?

The problem with the erroneous "Jehovah" is NOT the "J", but the incorrect derivation based on an erroneous reading of the vowel points of YHWH.

You can prefer all you wish....your preferences mean nothing to anyone but yourself.

Except for those who are willing to accept the obvious. What would happen if I was a JW and asked to read a passage from the NWT, and I preferred to say "Yahweh"instead of the NWT "Jehovah"? Would I be disciplined?

Are you serious?
This is a big translation issue for you?
I believe the Hebrew word is “ʿārûm” and it has a range of meanings.....
It can mean “shrewd” or “crafty” but there are other meanings....
One of them is “prudent” or “acting with or showing care and thought for the future.”
Another is “sensible”....so what is your problem with “cautious”? You don’t not think that the devil is cautious and has thoughts about the future?

I suggest the Apostle Paul guides us in the correct meaning:
2 Corinthians 11:3 (KJV): 3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

Like I said.....you do whatever you think is right.......there is nothing in your response that makes me want to jump ship.....it’s much ado about nothing really....we will all stand before the same judge....so let’s just see what he has to say about these things....I see nothing earth shattering....as usual.

These two items are only examples of the way JWs defend any item or even minor item of the JW perspective. We could discuss many other JW doctrines, but I am happy with these as examples.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Runningman]

It's theocratic warfare aka LYING.. It can also be plainly seen in the same JW Australian Child molestation court video wherethe JW lawyer (who is a JW) flat out lies in court about how Jws dont shun. Incredible.
And yet, none of this will even bother a JW.
It is used on here constantly.

There is an old adage that people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. So shall we now talk about the heinous crimes against innocents perpetuated by Catholics and Protestants and then proceed to demonize the whole lot?

 

[Runningman]

Sorry R-man- right over my head...

Nothing to add here either.

 

[PS95]

There is an old adage that people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. So shall we now talk about the heinous crimes against innocents perpetuated by Catholics and Protestants and then proceed to demonize the whole lot?

R-man, your post has absolutely nothing to do with mine.

 

[PS95]

Like I said.....you do whatever you think is right.......there is nothing in your response that makes me want to jump ship.....it’s much ado about nothing really....we will all stand before the same judge....so let’s just see what he has to say about these things....I see nothing earth shattering....as usual.

Aunty,
How is that a response? JWs claim is that Jesus came here to make His father's name know as in how to pronounce the tetragrammaton.
Your verse as proof is JOHN 17:6. or 26
But when shown to please continue reading John you will see--
John 17:11-12
"I am no longer going to be in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I am coming to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, so that they may be one just as We are. 12While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name, which You have given Me; and I guarded them, and not one of them perished except the son of destruction, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled."

and you just skip out? Why?

 

[Aunty Jane]

I was speaking of the derivation not the pronunciation. "Jehovah" is an incorrect rendition of the YHWH Name.

It doesn’t matter….you are nit picking like a Pharisee…..Jehovah accepts translations of his name as rendered in the original Scriptures…..God’s word contains names in English that are nothing like the Hebrew. Are we to change all Bible translations that contain “J” names because they do not fit what you consider to be the more correct way to say God’s name?
The truth is no one knows…not you or me. So a heartfelt attempt is better than avoiding God’s name and removing it entirely from your chosen translation. The KJV has “Jehovah” four times out of thousands and yet you still use it…..why?

"Jehovah" is erroneous.

How do you know that “Yahweh” isn’t equally erroneous? Just because it might sound more authentically “Jewish”…doesn’t make it any more correct than “Jehovah”.

Perhaps you are reticent to in any way consider Strong's as JWs are discouraged to use outside reference material. You seem to want to dismiss or ignore the earlier JW article.

If you had been here more than five minutes you would know that I consult Strongs often in my responses.
We are not discouraged from doing our own research….Strongs has serve me well in two ways….it defines the meaning of words in the original languages, and it shows me where these words appear in other verses so as to get a feel for the true depth of meaning. OTOH, it also exposes its roots in Christendom by relaying the meaning of a word, and then proceeding not to convey it correctly because it clashes with a widely held doctrine. TBH, I find it a very good source for both instances.

Seeing you like quoting Hebrew and possibly you can read Hebrew,, perhaps you could explain the two different forms of YHWH in the following, one translated "GOD", the other translated "LORD".

Here we go again….perhaps you should go to the Hebrew Tanakh for clarification on this…..as if one were needed.
Here it is from a Jewish translation…..and when reading this, and knowing that even the Jews don’t know how to pronounce the divine name with any certainty, with or without the vowel points…..your protests fail to make any sense. Who do the Jews know to be “The Lord”? It isn’t Jesus is it? It’s Jehovah/Yahweh.
Messiah was only a prophesy when Isaiah wrote his book. The man Jesus did not yet exist.

“4The Lord God gave me a tongue for teaching, to know to establish times for the faint [for His] word; He awakens me every morning, He awakens My ear, to hear according to the teachings.		דאֲדֹנָ֣י יֱהֹוִ֗ה נָ֚תַן לִי֙ לְשׁ֣וֹן לִמּוּדִ֔ים לָדַ֛עַת לָע֥וּת אֶת־יָעֵ֖ף דָּבָ֑ר יָעִ֣יר | בַּבֹּ֣קֶר בַּבֹּ֗קֶר יָעִ֥יר לִי֙ אֹ֔זֶן לִשְׁמֹ֖עַ כַּלִּמּוּדִֽים:
5The Lord God opened my ear, and I did not rebel; I did not turn away backwards.		האֲדֹנָ֚י יֱהֹוִה֙ פָּֽתַח־לִ֣י אֹ֔זֶן וְאָֽנֹכִ֖י לֹ֣א מָרִ֑יתִי אָח֖וֹר לֹ֥א נְסוּגֹֽתִי:
6I gave my back to smiters and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair; I did not hide my face from embarrassments and spitting.		וגֵּוִי֙ נָתַ֣תִּי לְמַכִּ֔ים וּלְחָיַ֖י לְמֹֽרְטִ֑ים פָּנַי֙ לֹ֣א הִסְתַּ֔רְתִּי מִכְּלִמּ֖וֹת וָרֹֽק:
7But the Lord God helps me, therefore, I was not embarrassed; therefore, I made my face like flint, and I knew that I would not be ashamed.		זוַֽאדֹנָ֚י יֱהֹוִה֙ יַֽעֲזָר־לִ֔י עַל־כֵּ֖ן לֹ֣א נִכְלָ֑מְתִּי עַל־כֵּ֞ן שַׂ֚מְתִּי פָנַי֙ כַּֽחַלָּמִ֔ישׁ וָֽאֵדַ֖ע כִּי־לֹ֥א אֵבֽוֹשׁ:
8He Who vindicates me is near, whoever wishes to quarrel with me-let us stand together; whoever is my contender shall approach me.		חקָרוֹב֙ מַצְדִּיקִ֔י מִֽי־יָרִ֥יב אִתִּ֖י נַ֣עַמְדָה יָּ֑חַד מִֽי־בַ֥עַל מִשְׁפָּטִ֖י יִגַּ֥שׁ אֵלָֽי:
9Behold, the Lord God shall help me; who is he that will condemn me? Behold all of them shall wear out like a garment, a moth shall consume them.		טהֵ֣ן אֲדֹנָ֚י יֱהֹוִה֙ יַֽעֲזָר־לִ֔י מִי־ה֖וּא יַרְשִׁיעֵ֑נִי הֵ֚ן כֻּלָּם֙ כַּבֶּ֣גֶד יִבְל֔וּ עָ֖שׁ יֹֽאכְלֵֽם:
10Who among you is God-fearing, who hearkens to the voice of His servant, who went in darkness and who has no light, let him trust in the name of the Lord and lean on his God.”		ימִ֚י בָכֶם֙ יְרֵ֣א יְהֹוָ֔ה שֹׁמֵ֖עַ בְּק֣וֹל עַבְדּ֑וֹ אֲשֶׁ֣ר | הָלַ֣ךְ חֲשֵׁכִ֗ים וְאֵ֥ין נֹ֙גַהּ֙ ל֔וֹ יִבְטַח֙ בְּשֵׁ֣ם יְהֹוָ֔ה וְיִשָּׁעֵ֖ן

The problem with the erroneous "Jehovah" is NOT the "J", but the incorrect derivation based on an erroneous reading of the vowel points of YHWH.

Nonsense. If the Jews don’t know how to say it….how can you make such an empty protest?
Are we to join the disobedient Jews and say Adonai instead? Why is “Yahweh” better than “Jehovah” if no one knows how to pronounce it? You could be just as wrong as you claim that we are.

Except for those who are willing to accept the obvious. What would happen if I was a JW and asked to read a passage from the NWT, and I preferred to say "Yahweh"instead of the NWT "Jehovah"? Would I be disciplined?

Are you serious? No one would turn a hair because both ways to say the divine name are acceptable to us.
Disciplined??? So, there’s a man with a big stick hiding behind the wall ready to bring God’s vengeance upon him for saying it wrong…..really? That sounds more like your own church.

I suggest the Apostle Paul guides us in the correct meaning:
2 Corinthians 11:3 (KJV): 3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

I suggest that this applies equally to you….

 

[Aunty Jane]

These two items are only examples of the way JWs defend any item or even minor item of the JW perspective. We could discuss many other JW doctrines, but I am happy with these as examples.

They have all been done to death….we know what we believe and why we believe it….we even know where to find all our arguments supported by the Bible….because we study it, thoroughly…..and as time draws near for the kingdom to come, new light is shed on things we have know, but have now a deeper understanding about……knowledge grows…it never stagnates. We make adjustments to accommodate the new facet of the diamond.…rather than detracting from it….it makes it shine more brilliantly.

The one test that no one else seem to be able to pass is the command from Jesus to preach “the good news of the kingdom in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations” before Jehovah brings the curtain down on this awful excuse for a life. It was his last instruction and he said he would be “with“ his disciples in this life saving ‘search and rescue’ mission. (Matt 28:18-20; Matt 10:11-14)

With the authority given to him by his God and Father, Jesus commanded his disciples to be preachers.…about God’s kingdom and what it will do for mankind.….the “good news” (gospel).
Christendom, with its many denominations fails to obey that command. They are obviously not able to do what Jesus commanded so they make excuses for not doing so. That is the sin of omission.
Many are local non-denominational churches but still they do not preach “in all the inhabited earth”.…nor do many really know what God’s Kingdom is. Even those larger more international churches…still do not preach about God’s Kingdom….a work that was to be done right to “the end”. (Matt 24:24; Acts 20:20) MIA.

So I know what I will stick with because this work cannot be done without Christ’s backing….nor can you fake the love that can clearly be seen in our world-wide brotherhood. (John 13:34-35) We could never see our brothers as enemies just because of political, racial or religious differences.…because none of those things matter to a genuine Christian. We are no part of that world….and proud of our compliance with Christ’s teachings.
We do not need the approval of man. (John 15:18-21)

 

[PS95]

They have all been done to death….we know what we believe and why we believe it….we even know where to find all our arguments supported by the Bible….because we study it, thoroughly…..and as time draws near for the kingdom to come, new light is shed on things we have know, but have now a deeper understanding about……knowledge grows…it never stagnates. We make adjustments to accommodate the new facet of the diamond.…rather than detracting from it….it makes it shine more brilliantly.

The one test that no one else seem to be able to pass is the command from Jesus to preach “the good news of the kingdom in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations” before Jehovah brings the curtain down on this awful excuse for a life. It was his last instruction and he said he would be “with“ his disciples in this life saving ‘search and rescue’ mission. (Matt 28:18-20; Matt 10:11-14)

With the authority given to him by his God and Father, Jesus commanded his disciples to be preachers.…about God’s kingdom and what it will do for mankind.….the “good news” (gospel).
Christendom, with its many denominations fails to obey that command. They are obviously not able to do what Jesus commanded so they make excuses for not doing so. That is the sin of omission.
Many are local non-denominational churches but still they do not preach “in all the inhabited earth”.…nor do many really know what God’s Kingdom is. Even those larger more international churches…still do not preach about God’s Kingdom….a work that was to be done right to “the end”. (Matt 24:24; Acts 20:20) MIA.

So I know what I will stick with because this work cannot be done without Christ’s backing….nor can you fake the love that can clearly be seen in our world-wide brotherhood. (John 13:34-35) We could never see our brothers as enemies just because of political, racial or religious differences.…because none of those things matter to a genuine Christian. We are no part of that world….and proud of our compliance with Christ’s teachings.
We do not need the approval of man. (John 15:18-21)

wow....................the self-righteouness tries to cover the blatant lies just told. It continues to amaze me. how sad this is.

 

[TheHC]

There is an old adage that people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. So shall we now talk about the heinous crimes against innocents perpetuated by Catholics and Protestants and then proceed to demonize the whole lot?

Certainly those that have committed such heinous acts, are the ones who will be judged for it. They are the main ones….

Now, if the religious organizations in which the guilty ones belong to, do nothing… they have the responsibility to correct erring ones (Galatians 6:1 ; 1 Corinthians 5, esp. vss.11-13); if they don’t, they might suffer judgment, too.

Seeing you like quoting Hebrew and possibly you can read Hebrew,, perhaps you could explain the two different forms of YHWH in the following, one translated "GOD", the other translated "LORD". Check the different vowel points:
Isaiah 50:4–11 (KJV): 4 The Lord GOD hath given me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to him that is weary: he wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the learned. 5 The Lord GOD hath opened mine ear, and I was not rebellious, neither turned away back. 6 I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting. 7 For the Lord GOD will help me; therefore shall I not be confounded: therefore have I set my face like a flint, and I know that I shall not be ashamed. 8 He is near that justifieth me; who will contend with me? let us stand together: who is mine adversary? let him come near to me. 9 Behold, Lord GOD will help me; who is he that shall condemn me? lo, they all shall wax old as a garment; the moth shall eat them up. 10 Who is among you that feareth the LORD, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the LORD, and stay upon his God. 11 Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.

Different translations render that different ways; it’s on them.

“Sovereign LORD” or “Lord GOD”, it’s really just obfuscation.

Perhaps you are reticent to in any way consider Strong's as JWs are discouraged to use outside reference material.

Where did you get this idea? We quote from valid non-JW sources, all the time!

…the NWT "Jehovah"

“…the NWT Jehovah”?

No, I think it’s the ASV (American Standard Version) Jehovah. Lol.

(I mean, the ASV translators put the name Jehovah in their version in 1901, way before the JW’s.)

Or maybe the Young’s Literal Translation…

Or Byington’s.

Would you rather people ignore it altogether? That would not be prudent, according to Proverbs 18:10… Joel 2:32… Zephaniah 3:9…
Psalm 148:13… etc.

And saying Yahweh is fine; but most of here, don’t speak Hebrew. We speak English.

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Aunty Jane,

The KJV has “Jehovah” four times out of thousands and yet you still use it…..why?

As far as the KJV is concerned, tey have indicated where YHWH occurs by using LORD and GOD. As far as Bibles are concerned I read from the RV/KJV Interlinear, both at home and at our meeting. I also have next to me a NASB Study Bible at our meetings for quicker reference, and this also contains a Lexicon for major words and Strongs. On my computer I run Logos8 Bible Program and have purchased many translations. The function "Power Lookup" will give the translation of a particular verse in every Bible that is loaded. Do you almost exclusively use the NWT?

If you had been here more than five minutes you would know that I consult Strongs often in my responses.
We are not discouraged from doing our own research….Strongs has serve me well in two ways… TBH, I find it a very good source for both instances.

I am encouraged by this, commendable.

Here we go again

Did you notice the two different vowel ponts on the YHWH Name?

Are we to join the disobedient Jews and say Adonai instead?

You are avoiding the issue again.

I suggest that this applies equally to you….

The JW literature also applies the translation "cautious" instead of the correct translation "subtil" or "crafty".

They have all been done to death….we know what we believe and why we believe it….we even know where to find all our arguments supported by the Bible….because we study it, thoroughly…..and as time draws near for the kingdom to come, new light is shed on things we have know, but have now a deeper understanding about……knowledge grows…it never stagnates. We make adjustments to accommodate the new facet of the diamond.…rather than detracting from it….it makes it shine more brilliantly.

In our meeting we have much ebb and flow of people and ideas. My impression is that the JWs must conform to what is dictated by the GB, and any change is eventually allowed and conveniently claimed to be "new light"

The one test that no one else seem to be able to pass is the command from Jesus to preach “the good news of the kingdom in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations” before Jehovah brings the curtain down on this awful excuse for a life. It was his last instruction and he said he would be “with“ his disciples in this life saving ‘search and rescue’ mission. (Matt 28:18-20; Matt 10:11-14)

The main JW emphasis is preaching, while our main emphasis is the care and spiritual growth of our members. We partake of the emblems every week, while only once a year most JWs pass the emblems along the row and do not partake as they consider they are not part of the 144.000. My particular meeting also conducts weekly public seminars, advertised in the local newspaper and available by streaming on you-tube. A number of our members are involved in preaching in other countries and give support to the many meetings in other countries.

Kind regards
Trevor