face2face
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A Question for Jehovah's Witnesses
- Thread starter RR144
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1 Watchtower and the WordAsk them how many gods we are supposed to believe in. Point them to John 1:1, where their translation describes the Word (Jesus) as “a god.” Is Jesus a second god for us to believe in?
2 If Jesus is (as they believe) the archangel Michael, why does Hebrews 1 specifically teach that Jesus is not an angel?
3 If an archangel is not an angel but the head of the angels (as they believe), why is every other use of the prefix arch mean a leader from within the group? For example, the high priest is also a priest and not just the head of the priests.
4 If Michael is a unique creation of God, why does Daniel 10:13 describe Michael as “one of the chief princes”?
5 If true worshippers of God are supposed to call him Jehovah, why does the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) not appear in the New Testament?
6 If the elect 144,000 are the only ones who will go to heaven, why does Revelation 21 teach that God will dwell on earth?
2 If Jesus is (as they believe) the archangel Michael, why does Hebrews 1 specifically teach that Jesus is not an angel?
3 If an archangel is not an angel but the head of the angels (as they believe), why is every other use of the prefix arch mean a leader from within the group? For example, the high priest is also a priest and not just the head of the priests.
4 If Michael is a unique creation of God, why does Daniel 10:13 describe Michael as “one of the chief princes”?
5 If true worshippers of God are supposed to call him Jehovah, why does the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) not appear in the New Testament?
6 If the elect 144,000 are the only ones who will go to heaven, why does Revelation 21 teach that God will dwell on earth?
New #119
Amos 6:10e
"We must not mention the name of the Lord.”
ASV "we may not make mention of the name of Jehovah."
CEB
"We mustn’t mention the name of the Lord.”
DARBY
we may not make mention of Jehovah's name.
CJB "we mustn’t mention the name of Adonai.”
NWT For it is not the time to make any mention of the name of Jehovah.’”
adds words not in the Hebrew to avoid this command!!! lol
Amos 6:10e
"We must not mention the name of the Lord.”
ASV "we may not make mention of the name of Jehovah."
CEB
"We mustn’t mention the name of the Lord.”
DARBY
we may not make mention of Jehovah's name.
CJB "we mustn’t mention the name of Adonai.”
NWT For it is not the time to make any mention of the name of Jehovah.’”
adds words not in the Hebrew to avoid this command!!! lol
tigger 2
Well-Known Member
.................................................................
Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
6:10. A grim episode imagined by the prophet (cf. Isaiah 3:6 f.) for the purpose of illustrating vividly the terrors of the time: the relative of a deceased man enters his house to perform the last duties to his corpse: he finds no living person in it except one, secreted in a far corner, who tells him he is the solitary survivor of the household, all the others having perished (cf. Amos 5:9): so desperate is the outlook that men dread even to mention Jehovah’s name, for fear lest it should call down a fresh judgement upon them.
---
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
6:10 ....for we may not make mention of the name of the Lord; being forbid by their superiors; or it is not right to do it by way of complaint, since our sins have deserved such judgments to come upon us; or it will be to no purpose to make mention of the name of the Lord, and pray unto him to turn away his hand, since destruction is determined, the decree is gone forth. The Targum is,
"he shall say, remove (that is, the dead), since while they lived they did not pray in the name of the Lord.''
And so the Syriac and Arabic versions make this to be the reason of the mortality, "because they remembered not the name of the Lord"; or, "called not upon" it.
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The Watchtower: Whenever we ask Jehovah God, as did David, to examine our “kidneys” we mean for him to make a most searching examination, one that takes in the deepest emotions, thoughts, feelings. Being omniscient and omnipotent, Jehovah God has no difficulty at all in making such an examination. (The Kidneys—Why Used Symbolically, April 1, 1965, page 219)
Because Jehovah God is omniscient and omnipotent He is able to fully understand our (1) deepest emotions, (2) thoughts, and (3) feelings.
Since the Lord Jesus can do the same thing demonstrates He is omniscient and omnipotent (= God).
The Watchtower: Christ Jesus, to whom judgment is committed, also looks where Jehovah looks: “I am he who searches the kidneys [“deepest emotions,” Ref. Bi., footnote] and hearts, and I will give to you individually according to your deeds.” (Revelation 2:23) (Determined to Serve Jehovah With a Complete Heart, June 1, 1986, page 17)
Insight on the Scriptures: He was able to see into men’s hearts, discern their thinking, reasoning, and motives. (Mt 9:4; Mr 2:6-8; Joh 2:23-25) (Jesus Christ, Volume 2, page 71)
The Watchtower: THE literal kidneys represent a region of the body lower than the fleshly heart. According to one of the definitions, the kidneys are the seat of human feelings, affections and passions. Webster’s New Collegiate Dictionary links the kidneys with the person’s “temperament.” At Revelation 2:23 the resurrected, glorified Jesus Christ says: "I am he who searches the kidneys and hearts, and I will give to you individually according to your deeds.” (The “Kidneys” and the “Heart” in the Scriptures, September 1, 1984, page 19)
I do not see the word kidneys as feelings, affections and passions in the Bible:
www.biblegateway.com
Because Jehovah God is omniscient and omnipotent He is able to fully understand our (1) deepest emotions, (2) thoughts, and (3) feelings.
Since the Lord Jesus can do the same thing demonstrates He is omniscient and omnipotent (= God).
The Watchtower: Christ Jesus, to whom judgment is committed, also looks where Jehovah looks: “I am he who searches the kidneys [“deepest emotions,” Ref. Bi., footnote] and hearts, and I will give to you individually according to your deeds.” (Revelation 2:23) (Determined to Serve Jehovah With a Complete Heart, June 1, 1986, page 17)
Insight on the Scriptures: He was able to see into men’s hearts, discern their thinking, reasoning, and motives. (Mt 9:4; Mr 2:6-8; Joh 2:23-25) (Jesus Christ, Volume 2, page 71)
The Watchtower: THE literal kidneys represent a region of the body lower than the fleshly heart. According to one of the definitions, the kidneys are the seat of human feelings, affections and passions. Webster’s New Collegiate Dictionary links the kidneys with the person’s “temperament.” At Revelation 2:23 the resurrected, glorified Jesus Christ says: "I am he who searches the kidneys and hearts, and I will give to you individually according to your deeds.” (The “Kidneys” and the “Heart” in the Scriptures, September 1, 1984, page 19)
I do not see the word kidneys as feelings, affections and passions in the Bible:
BibleGateway - Keyword Search: kidneys
tigger 2
Well-Known Member
....................................................The Watchtower: Whenever we ask Jehovah God, as did David, to examine our “kidneys” we mean for him to make a most searching examination, one that takes in the deepest emotions, thoughts, feelings. Being omniscient and omnipotent, Jehovah God has no difficulty at all in making such an examination. (The Kidneys—Why Used Symbolically, April 1, 1965, page 219)
Because Jehovah God is omniscient and omnipotent He is able to fully understand our (1) deepest emotions, (2) thoughts, and (3) feelings.
Since the Lord Jesus can do the same thing demonstrates He is omniscient and omnipotent (= God).
The Watchtower: Christ Jesus, to whom judgment is committed, also looks where Jehovah looks: “I am he who searches the kidneys [“deepest emotions,” Ref. Bi., footnote] and hearts, and I will give to you individually according to your deeds.” (Revelation 2:23) (Determined to Serve Jehovah With a Complete Heart, June 1, 1986, page 17)
Insight on the Scriptures: He was able to see into men’s hearts, discern their thinking, reasoning, and motives. (Mt 9:4; Mr 2:6-8; Joh 2:23-25) (Jesus Christ, Volume 2, page 71)
The Watchtower: THE literal kidneys represent a region of the body lower than the fleshly heart. According to one of the definitions, the kidneys are the seat of human feelings, affections and passions. Webster’s New Collegiate Dictionary links the kidneys with the person’s “temperament.” At Revelation 2:23 the resurrected, glorified Jesus Christ says: "I am he who searches the kidneys and hearts, and I will give to you individually according to your deeds.” (The “Kidneys” and the “Heart” in the Scriptures, September 1, 1984, page 19)
I do not see the word kidneys as feelings, affections and passions in the Bible:
BibleGateway - Keyword Search: kidneys
"Essentially, the kidneys represent the deepest emotions of the soul (being). So David speaking of being pierced there, is speaking of emotional pain in the innermost part. And as Proverbs 23 states, our kidneys rejoice when what is right is spoken." - Torahapologetics.com.
" This hidden location, coupled with the sacred sacrificial use, caused the kidneys to be thought of as the seat of the innermost moral (and emotional) impulses." - International Standard Bible Encyclopedia.
I've heard your JW arguments for years. You're following the Governing Body, not Jesus/God.
PS95
Well-Known Member
Jack meet Runningman. He is more aligned with Christadelphians, which is similar to JWs in many respects. However Rman doesnt belive that the Word who became flesh was Jesus.
So.. as simple as that sounds to help someone with it's like Jws in the sense that you wont be able to as he digs his heels in further...
Jws have life force of angel becoming flesh= just a man but sinless
Christadephians dont know who Word is= just a man..
This is all Gnosticism and John is why John addressed it.
Runningman
Active Member
Runningman
Active Member
I asked if you could show me where a person named the Word is saying or doing anything in the Old Testament and I believe you admitted it doesn't exist. I can go get the quote if you like. So what you're saying isn't sola scriptura and I require sola scripture and sound reason. In other words, the Old Testament doesn't have someone named the Word who is God with God in the beginning. Strike 1.
Why can't the "Word" being a he be personification then? For starters, just a word (logos) isn't what God is. Personification is all over the Old and New Testament. While there are many examples, here's one; in Ephesians 5:25-27 the church is referred to as a woman who will marry Christ. Therefore the church is the bride of Christ, yet Christ is a man and so am I. If literal this is wrong in so many ways. Personification is used to make a point, not intended to be misunderstood by literalists because it will distort the Scripture. So I believe you are actually distorting the Scripture when you say the Word = Jesus (something the Bible doesn't say.)
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PS95
Well-Known Member
Sure, and I still say he is not called, the Word in the OT. --John taught us who the Word is!! I've told you this.
Why can't it? I've told you that I have considered that also- but Jesus REMEMBERED his time before he came to earth and spoke about it. An "it' doesnt have a memory. Jesus did. He said He came down from heaven. You dont believe Him.
Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
Look up “theos” in a good concordance….the word does not just apply to Jehovah….it applies to Jesus, human judges, and even angels. (John 10:31-36) It’s a translation error.
There is only one God….and always has been. (Deut 6:4)
It doesn’t. The pre-human Jesus is not just an angel…..he is the first and only direct creation of his God and Father. (Rev 3:14) He is before all other creation because through him, it was all brought into existence (Col 1:15-17)….look up “agency”.….”through” is not “by”.
Only two persons in scripture are said to have command of the angelic forces….Jesus and Michael….one doctrine alone stands in the way of seeing that they are one and the same personage. Since we do not accept said doctrine, we have no impediment to acknowledging that Jesus has different names in the different roles he plays….as “the Prince of peace” he is “the great prince” who “stands in behalf of Jehovah’s people.“ (Dan 12:1)
There were angels appointed in various nations who were apparently called “princes” and they had their demonic counterparts. They often battled with one another.
“But the prince of the royal realm of Persia was standing in opposition to me for twenty-one days, and, look! Michael, one of the foremost princes, came to help me . . . And now I shall go back to fight with the prince of Persia. When I am going forth, look! also the prince of Greece is coming. However, I shall tell you the things noted down in the writing of truth, and there is no one holding strongly with me in these things but Michael, the prince of you people.” (Dan 10:13, 20-21)
Do we really know what goes on in the spiritual realm?
Ask the Jews why they stopped pronouncing the divine name….It wasn’t God who told them to stop saying it….Exodus 3:13-15 tells us that God’s name was to be mentioned in all their generations.
But despite the fact that they did not utter it, it remained in their scripture in the four well known consonants…YHWH. (Jehovah in English translations)
Jesus said he had come to “make his Father’s name known” (John 17:26)….he and his Father do not share a name. “The only true God“ (John 17:3) has only one name…..and “the one he sent” Jesus, appears to have several. (Rev 3:12; Phil 2:9)
Christendom not only removed it from their speech, but also from their Scripture. When the OT was quoted and the Tetragrammaton was present in the Hebrew writings, there was no excuse not to include it.
We put it back where it belongs. In the Lord’s Prayer, it doesn’t say ”hallowed be thy title”. God’s name was first on the list of things to pray for.
It doesn’t. It says that God will be “with“ his people, like he has always been “with” them….it does not require his physical presence since “no man has ever seen God“ (John 1:18) and no man can exist in God’s presence as it would result in their death. (Ex 33:17-20)
You spout nonsense dressed up as knowledge….be careful that 1 Cor 10:12 doesn’t catch up with you….
In a world ruled by the devil, nothing is as it seems…..
Jehovah will let us all know soon enough whether we are teaching the truth of God’s word, or the twisted “truth” of the devil’s counterfeits. (There are so many of them…but only one truth) God will not reveal who has the “delusions” until it is his time to settle accounts. (2 Thess 2:9-12) Then we will all know….
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TrevorHL
Member
Greetings Aunty Jane,
Kind regards
Trevor
"Jehovah" is an erroneous rendition of the YHWH Name, and most scholars prefer Yahweh. This is explained in early JW literature but is suppressed in most modern JW literature.
Kind regards
Trevor
Runningman
Active Member
If Jesus remembered what he was doing “before he came to earth” then what did Jesus say he was doing before coming to earth?
PS95
Well-Known Member
Runningman
Active Member
For the sake of discussion, I’ll assume this is literal. So what was the glory Jesus was sharing with his Father?
PS95
Well-Known Member
Runningman
Active Member
Yes I love this chapter and I’m familiar with it. So what was God doing before the word was? It’s kind of a big question mark isn’t it? Because there are no examples.
PS95
Well-Known Member
Dont go beyond the beginning. The Word already was. That's what we have been given.
PS95
Well-Known Member
This gets so old. Jane are you telling us that judges are true gods? Of course not. Do angels worhip angels? Of course not. Do creatures worship creatures? Of course not.
Rev 5:11-14
“Worthy is the Lamb that was slaughtered to receive power, wealth, wisdom, might, honor, glory, and blessing.”
13 And I heard every created thing which is in heaven, or on the earth, or under the earth, or on the sea, and all the things in them, saying, “To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing, the honor, the glory, and the dominion forever and ever.”
14 And the four living creatures were saying, “Amen.” And the elders fell down and worshiped.
Says you. Not the bible. Hebrews teaches multiple times that Jesus is not an angel. Why do you ignore the scriptures?
Nope. Michael is ONE of the foremost princes.
No we dont, but you love to pretend you do.
The Jews did it out of reverence. They were being careful not to say it all day long like you do so IT WOULD NOT BE USED IN VEIN.
Like you use it 50 times in 2 paragraphs in real life only, of course.
When Jesus said that He was NOt referring to vowels and consonants! LOl He was speaking about his name as in Who he is what He is doing. It also says He GAVE JESUS HIS NAME!!!!!!
The Lords' prayer is to OUR FATHER- Jesus didnt do his JOB right?
According to you, no one has seen Jesus either. You say 1 Tim 6:16 is about Jesus? noooo
Nothing like a crazed know- it- all. C'mon now Jane, get off that high horse before you fall hard. No one wants to see you perish. I mean that.
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