The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[CadyandZoe]

Do you not care if everyone else posting in this thread knows what you believe or not?

Why do you care what other people in the thread think? I'm talking to you, and you already know what I think because of the many posts we have written to each other. You are disingenuous and mean when you say that I can't back up what I say with scripture. How many hours have I spent quoting scripture and producing my commentary?

But hey, I can take it. I have big shoulders.

Why are you even here?

I'm here to talk to you. What did you think?

You know that I think your doctrine is a complete joke and your denial of the deity of Christ bothers me greatly.

Those who post on a Christian message board expect others to disagree at times. But we show our character by HOW we disagree. What does it reveal about your character to refer to my doctrine as a joke?

So, are you just trying to annoy me? Is that your purpose in being here? You sure are doing NOTHING to back up your beliefs, so I'm seeing no point in your being here in a thread that has to do with refuting pretrib.

You really, honestly don't understand what is going on here? Do you honestly believe your fantastical notion that we are all exchanging useful information about the end times, which lurkers can read for their edification? Reason is not the enemy of faith; fantasy is.

I could tell you what is happening here, but I don't know if you would hear me.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I'm trying to put an end to all that by just talking about scripture. Which side of the debate has called the other "Satan", "evil spirits" while comparing them to "gay guys" and supporting trans people and so on?


Well, good for you.


I don't care what you think about that. I know better. Be ignorant if you want. That's your choice.

You said all that without talking about scripture. Hmm.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Tell Paul.

Ephesians 2
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Quickened is not the same thing as resurrection just as being "dead in sins" is not the same thing as a lifeless body.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Do you know what the Jews (Judaism) are looking for in their anticipated messiah ?

I have some idea, yes, but why should I care about that in relation to what we're talking about in this thread?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You said all that without talking about scripture. Hmm.

I have referenced scripture far more than you have in this thread and you know it. You are obviously just here to antagonize people like me and WPM.

Let me announce once again to everyone who may not know this about you.

Everyone, this person, CadyandZoe, denies the deity of our Great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, which proves that he is completely untrustworthy. Beware of this wolf in sheep's clothing.

 

[Douggg]

I have some idea, yes, but why should I care about that in relation to what we're talking about in this thread?

It has to do with the 7 year 70th week "trib" of the pre-trib view. The confirmation of the covenant in Daniel 9:27 is what pre-trib begins the 7 year 70th week.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Why do you care what other people in the thread think?

So, even though this is a thread made specifically to refute pretrib, and you say you don't believe in pretrib, you are not here to refute pretrib and don't care if the pretribs here know what you believe or not. How interesting! LOL! Such a joke.

I'm talking to you, and you already know what I think because of the many posts we have written to each other. You are disingenuous and mean when you say that I can't back up what I say with scripture.

I don't mean that you have never tried to back up what you say with scripture. I mean that you have tried and have failed. Do you have anything new to bring to the table since you last failed to provide any convincing arguments to support your view?

I'm here to talk to you. What did you think?

I'm here mainly to refute pretrib. Why did you pick this thread, of all threads, to debate me on my Amil view?

Those who post on a Christian message board expect others to disagree at times. But we show our character by HOW we disagree. What does it reveal about your character to refer to my doctrine as a joke?

It reveals that it is a joke. That is a fact. As is your belief that Jesus is not God.

You really, honestly don't understand what is going on here?

Oh, I know what is going on here. You are playing games. You have ridiculously decided that this was the best place for you to debate Amils in a thread where we are debating pretribs. And you say yourself you are not a pretrib. What a joke. You are trying to create a circus and distract from what this thread is about.

Do you honestly believe your fantastical notion that we are all exchanging useful information about the end times, which lurkers can read for their edification? Reason is not the enemy of faith; fantasy is.

Did you just ignore when I said I was on a forum just like this before which showed how many people were there (probably using IP tracking) but not signed in? I'm not just making that up. I assume the same is the case on this forum. If you don't want to believe that, that is not my problem.

I could tell you what is happening here, but I don't know if you would hear me.

I already know what is happening here and told you above. What is about to happen here is me making a few very noticeable posts reminding everyone of what a fraud you are because of your denial of the deity of Jesus Christ. So, keep it up if that's what you want.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It has to do with the 7 year 70th week "trib" of the pre-trib view. The confirmation of the covenant in Daniel 9:27 is what pre-trib begins the 7 year 70th week.

Yes, I know that and I obviously believe that is false. Do you have anything to tell me that I don't already know?

 

[covenantee]

No. That is not true. Resurrection is when the body is brought back to life.

Lazarus was brought back to life, but the word "resurrect" does not appear in the account.

Dorcas was brought back to life, but the word "resurrect" does not appear in the account.

 

[Douggg]

Yes, I know that and I obviously believe that is false. Do you have anything to tell me that I don't already know?

Show what you know first. Like the path which end times events will be fulfilled. i.e. a timeline of end times events.

The events of Ezekiel 39 for example.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Show what you know first. Like the path which end times events will be fulfilled. i.e. a timeline of end times events.

The events of Ezekiel 39 for example.

LOL. Have you not read any of my posts in this thread? I have extensively shown what I know. But, you are not satisfied despite that. How can I think that any amount of knowledge that I share will satisfy you? You ignore most of what I say and don't respond to it. I think if I gave a commentary on the entire Bible you would still ask me to show you what I know. This is just silly.

 

[Taken]

So, when Paul talks about the "carnal mind," do you think he means to say that the mind is deficient somehow? I don't get that.

The “natural” spirit of man is IN his “Heart”.
Regardless of what the MIND thinks, believes, decides, good or corrupt…the man’s TRUTH (ie natural spirit, which IS a mans truth in his heart…is always the mans natural literal True TRUTH.

A mans ‘natural’ TRUTH…(natural spirit of man)..can and often IS not in LINE with Gods Spiritual truth…regarding things that pertain to God.

The mans “natural spirit”…IS the precise “thing” God “CHANGES” WHEN a man Becomes…quickened…meaning…”Born Again “OF” “THE” Spirit, which is a mans natural spirit becoming BORN…(of Gods Seed) … thus that mans spirit has become…MADE able to receive….not ONLY Gods Truth regarding God…but ALSO Gods Understanding regarding Gods Truth.
WHEN a mans spirit is born AGAIN of Gods Seed…For the remainder of a mans physical LIFE…(til his own body is risen up)…that mans spirit will be “in-dwelt” WITH Gods Spirit of Truth…(who IS Jesus, Gods Word)…consistently Feeding that mans new spirit…Gods Truth, regarding things that pertain TO God.

A natural Carnal Mind can NOT perceive the depth of Gods truth, Gods understanding as those things ARE SPIRIT.

Romans 8 elaborates…and here is a blip.

Romans 8:
[6] For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
[7] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Once the spirit of man is born again…the man himself has control over his MIND…he himself can made his own mind, its thoughts, sub-servant to his born again hearts thoughts…

IF and When a man DOES that, (and it is a practice)…that mans mind begins to become Christ Like…scripturally said…having a mind Like Christ.

Also at the time the mans “soul” IS restored, meaning resumes being “very good” as it was when God gave a man a soul. We call that soul becoming MADE…SAVED.
It is SAVED unto the Lord God…(His breath of LIFE shall forever remain IN that soul.)
And SAVED From destruction….(that His Breath of Life shall Never depart from that soul.)

Also quic review…
Ezek 18:31
Ezek 36:26

Hope this helps.

Glory to God,
Taken

Adding…

I go back to Paul's discussion in Romans 1, where he asserts that mankind can know about the invisible God from the things that he has made, and in that context, he condemns mankind because while they knew the truth about God, they were unrighteous in their suppression of that knowledge.

Unbelief is a suppression of knowledge that one already knows.

If a sinner or an unbeliever can't apprehend spiritual things as you seem to suggest, then they are blameless. How can God blame them for rejecting something they can't understand? No, I think rather that unbelievers DO understand and reject it anyway, which is why they are without excuse.

Sure man CAN Choose to believe by the works God has done…
First round…Anciently God would FORETELL, and tell men wait and see if that does or doesn’t happen…
Men grew weary waiting YEARS for prophecy to come to pass…
God gave men a quicker turn around and a promise to walk among men that they could see His works.
Fast forward…Jesus reiterates…if men could not believe what He says, believe His works…

It’s the same old natural man, to first believe what he sees rather than what he is told.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Quickened is not the same thing as resurrection just as being "dead in sins" is not the same thing as a lifeless body.

Getting bogged down over semantics like this is a waste of time. My approach to this is a bit different than his in that I believe the first resurrection specifically refers to Christ's resurrection since other scripture explicitly refers to His resurrection as being the first (Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20, Col 1:18, Rev 1:5). Regardless, he and I agree that the way in which someone has part in the first resurrection is by spiritually identifying with Christ's death and resurrection by being spiritually saved and going from being spiritually dead in sins to spiritually alive in Christ.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

So, the second death is being cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14-15). I believe when Paul says in Romans 6:23 that the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life, he is contrasting two different eternal destinies there. So, I believe he is talking about the second death there. The wages of unforgiven and uncovered sin is the eternal second death, but the gift of God that comes by grace through faith is eternal life.

With that said, at what point can we say that the second death has no power over someone? Not until they are bodily resurrected? No. As I showed, the second death has no power over those who are saved NOW. It has no power over the souls of the dead in Christ NOW. So, what does that tell you about the timing of Revelation 20:6? And, the fact that John wrote in John 1:5-6 that Jesus, the ruler of the kings of the earth, HAS MADE believers "priests unto God and his Father". Again, that points to Revelation 20:6 as being a current reality. Please address this.

 

[jeffweeder]

He did clearly tell you.

Would you mind quoting the chapter and verse?

 

[WPM]

Do you know what the Jews (Judaism) are looking for in their anticipated messiah ?

The 70 weeks of Daniel 9 are determined upon Daniel's people - the Jews - and Jerusalem.

Who cares what apostate Judaism is looking for. They missed Jesus the first time!

 

[jeffweeder]

After the millennium has ended and Satan's last deception of the nations, is the second resurrection, that of the rest of the dead.

satan last deception occurs just before the second coming.

The restraining influence is lifted, and the great chain is unlocked...,

2Thess 2
8 Then the lawless one [the Antichrist] will be revealed and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of His mouth and bring him to an end by the appearance of His coming.

9 The coming of the [Antichrist, the lawless] one is through the activity of Satan, [attended] with great power [all kinds of counterfeit miracles] and [deceptive] signs and false wonders [all of them lies], 10 and by unlimited seduction to evil and with all the deception of wickedness for those who are perishing, because they did not welcome the love of the truth [of the gospel] so as to be saved [they were spiritually blind, and rejected the truth that would have saved them].

11 Because of this God will send upon them a misleading influence, [an activity of error and deception] so they will believe the lie, 12 in order that all may be judged and condemned who did not believe the truth [about their sin, and the need for salvation through Christ], but instead took pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[Douggg]

satan last deception occurs just before the second coming.

Jesus's Second Coming is in Revelation 19:11-21. Agree or disagree ?

At which time, Satan is cast into the bottomless pit prison in Revelation 20:1-3. Agree or disagree ?

Satan's last deception is 1000 years after Jesus's Second Coming. Agree or disagree ?

 

[Douggg]

Who cares what apostate Judaism is looking for. They missed Jesus the first time!

Apparently, you as a Amil don't care, as you also don't care about how the 15 end times time frames given in the bible fit together.

Amil has no end times scenario of what is going to take place right before Jesus's Second Coming. For example, Amil, what is the 42 months reign of the beast in Revelation 13:5 ?

 

[Douggg]

satan last deception occurs just before the second coming.

The restraining influence is lifted, and the great chain is unlocked...,

2Thess 2
8 Then the lawless one [the Antichrist] will be revealed and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of His mouth and bring him to an end by the appearance of His coming.

9 The coming of the [Antichrist, the lawless] one is through the activity of Satan, [attended] with great power [all kinds of counterfeit miracles] and [deceptive] signs and false wonders [all of them lies], 10 and by unlimited seduction to evil and with all the deception of wickedness for those who are perishing, because they did not welcome the love of the truth [of the gospel] so as to be saved [they were spiritually blind, and rejected the truth that would have saved them].

11 Because of this God will send upon them a misleading influence, [an activity of error and deception] so they will believe the lie, 12 in order that all may be judged and condemned who did not believe the truth [about their sin, and the need for salvation through Christ], but instead took pleasure in unrighteousness.

Go back a few verses to 2Thessalonians2:3-4.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


The Antichrist will reveal himself as the man of sin, by going into the temple, sitting, claiming to have achieved God-hood.

the little horn > becomes the prince that shall come > becomes the Antichrist > becomes the revealed man of sin > becomes the beast.

As the beast, his reign is for 42 months, Revelation 13:5. As shown on my table.

 

[jeffweeder]

Jesus's Second Coming is in Revelation 19:11-21. Agree or disagree ?

At which time, Satan is cast into the bottomless pit prison in Revelation 20:1-3. Agree or disagree ?

Satan's last deception is 1000 years after Jesus's Second Coming. Agree or disagree ?

You know the answer.

Without fail you think more highly of your own interpretation of symbolic old and New Testament literature than you do of plainly written informative NT letters by people of the Lords own choosing.

Do yourself a favor and pray about it.