It's still by his grace (undeserved favour), similar to how Abraham is going to heaven through the cross of Christ as well.
Apokatastasis in the Bible
- Thread starter St. SteVen
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That open the gates even wider. Either everyone deserves grace and mercy, or everyone deserves destruction. Which is it?
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The definition of grace is undeserved favour. So no one deserves it by definition. We all deserve destruction.
However, God chooses who he wants to have mercy on.
This predetermination is based on His sovereignty, unchanging character (Malachi 3:6), foreknowledge (Romans 8:29, 11:2), love (Ephesians 1:4-5), and plan and pleasure (Ephesians 1:5). Read through this article:
Who are the elect of God? | GotQuestions.org
Who are the elect of God? Does God predestine who will be saved? Is God’s election based on His foreknowledge of who will believe?
www.gotquestions.org
So on second thought, maybe not all infants will enter heaven if it turns out they wouldn't have wanted to be saved. He won't force anyone into heaven against their will. Which would just further prove that hell is not eternal conscious torment. And we often falsely presume everyone wants to be saved. This is just simply not true. A result of having truly free creatures is some of them not wanting to be with God. Satan and his angels are the perfect example of this.
Now you probably will ask why did he not just create creatures who would want to be saved and make us all born in heaven? Well a few reasons I can think of are:
1. Then we're not really created with free will, just the appearance of it
2. We're here to learn something through our suffering. Suffering does not exist in heaven. It can only exist in an imperfect world. The infants that died were robbed of this experience, and robbed of the opportunity to do God's will here on Earth.
3. Sex does not exist in heaven. For some reason, God wants it to be specific to this life. So the only way to create new humans is here on this Earth, and God's plan for us is to experience hardship and grow and learn how to love each other and him more deeply as a result of it.
So while yes they were robbed of this experience, they can still learn from others in heaven.
Off to a bad start here.
Didn't you say salvation was by our free-will choice? And destruction was for those who reject Christ? Now you say not everyone is allowed to choose. ???
So, God chooses who he will save and who he will destroy. How would you feel about God if you found out that you were born to be destroyed? Did Christ not pay the death penalty for all humankind?
1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
You can't be serious. But it appears that you are. Wow.
Well... destruction by incineration is a very tempting offer. Who would want paradise when you can be completely incinerated? Wouldn't want to violate anyone's free-will - LOL
1) Why do you think that the will of humankind is superior to God's will? Doesn't he know better than we?
2) Will those God choose to incinerate (before the foundations of the world) learn something from their suffering?
3) Sex does not exist in heaven? No, marriage does not exist in heaven. We will be like the angels. Remember the ones in Genesis that gave us the Nephilim?
So... you are saying that the babies that God chose not to save, because of his foreknowledge, will learn from others in heaven where there is no suffering, which was how we learned?
--- PARODY ---
Person #1: ... and that's the gospel. Will you receive Jesus?
Person #2: Sure, but I have a question.
Person #1: No problem, what is it?
Person #2: I lost a baby. Will she be in heaven with me?
Person #1: Well... ahem (clears throat) Um... (cringe)
Person #2: Well what! ???
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--- PARODY ---
Mother: Lord, I was remembering my child.
Jesus: Yes, I can see her now in torment.
Mother: When will it end?
Jesus: Hell is forever.
Mother: Is there no hope for my child?
Jesus: Sorry, no hope for those in hell.
Mother: Surely my child has been punished enough by now.
Jesus: No, unbelief is an eternal crime.
Mother: I would gladly trade places with my child.
Jesus: I couldn't do that to you.
Mother: Why can you do it to my child?
Jesus: They are my enemy.
Mother: Didn't you teach us to love our enemies?
Jesus: Hmm... you got me there.
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You should have read the article fully, it answered most of your questions.
Who would want paradise when you can be completely incinerated?
Well it wouldn't be paradise for them. Like the angels who defiled themselves by sleeping with humans. They chose that over God's Kingdom. It's not like "worship me or burn". It's more like "if you don't want to be with me, there's not really anywhere else for you to go"
--- PARODY ---
Is God moral?
Or does he kill babies by the book?
I'm trying to imagine the judgement of an infant.
"Do you remember depriving your parents of sleep for weeks on end?"
Response: "Goo goo, gah gah."
"For the record, was that a 'Yes', or a 'No'?
Response: "Dah dah dah."
"So, you're blaming your father?"
Response: "Thhatttttz." (tongue noise)
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St. SteVen said:
Mother: Didn't you teach us to love our enemies?
As if God wouldn't force someone into paradise when what they REALLY want is to be incinerated? - LOL
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Mother: Didn't you teach us to love our enemies?
So... you really can't see what a twisted view that is? !!!
As if God wouldn't force someone into paradise when what they REALLY want is to be incinerated? - LOL
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Again it's not paradise to them. Otherwise Satan and his angels wouldn't have transgressed.
It's also possible that all infants do go to heaven and never sin because they don't get taught how to sin by the world.
This raises the question:
Why not kill all babies?
Well those points I listed earlier still stand. We're here to learn how to love God and each other more deeply as a result of our suffering, and procreation is exclusive to this life, and the baby's death does somewhat imply it will never experience the same level of free will as us. Or freedom of opportunity may be a better term. So this would mean that evil and suffering exist to make us love each other more deeply.
Yes our growth is at the expense of some souls who didn't respond to God and ultimately are destroyed, but they did have the opportunity. This aligns with Romans 8:28: "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose."
And of course because murder is wrong.
Ultimately though, we know God is just and isn't going to force people into heaven against their will. And yes some do not want to be in heaven. This is just a fact. Satan and the angels rejected it. So whatever he decides is right.
That's actually a good question. Let's examine the facts.
1) Who made the command about the death penalty for eating fruit from the tree He placed in the CENTER of the garden?
2) Were Adam and Eve tempted to eat from the forbidden tree? Nope. Zero interest. Not their will.
3) So what happened? God allowed them to be deceived by providing a crafty serpent.
4) The serpent spoke with Eve. She heard about the command second-hand from Adam. (the command came before she was created)
5) Adam misspoke to Eve about the command. He added "don 't touch". God didn't correct him, or inform Eve.
Should Adam really take all the blame here? Or worse, blame it on Eve? (1 Timothy 2:14)
--- PARODY ---
Serpent: Did God really say... ?
Eve: He said don't eat and don't touch.
Adam: Oops, my bad, I said don't touch.
Eve: What?! God didn't say that? !!!
Adam: No, I added that because
I know you like to touch things without thinking.
Eve: So, you don't trust me? !!!
Adam: I'm looking out for our best interests. My job.
Eve: I see.
Serpent: Are you going to eat, or not? !!!
Eve: Let me check with the boss. - LOL
Adam: Scram serpent!
Serpent: Hiss... (walks away dejected)
Eve: Hey, let's check out that other tree.
Adam: Good idea!
Indeed.
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Well if you think it's God's fault, then you think God is imperfect. Personally, I hold to the biblical teaching that they rejected the paradise they were given in favour of their own lusts.
We are either born into sin or we are not. Which is it?
It's not something we are taught. - LOL
You are digging quite a hole with your winds of doctrine.
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Not really. I'm reasoning through the possibilities because I don't know, and neither do you.
But yes we're born with a sin nature. One that Jesus takes away from us when we're reborn into him, which means the babies who die would have that sin nature cleansed.
Why would that make God imperfect?
Didn't God create the universe with a redemptive plan in mind. He was just helping perfection along. - LOL
Seems better than your plan to pick and choose who to send to heaven and who to incinerate. And then call it our own free-will. Blame the victim?
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