The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[rebuilder 454]

This sums up the crude disrespectful and demeaning ad hominem that exemplifies the approach of most Pretribbers here when they notice they have no redponse to God's Book.

Here is the real world that prompts my pushback to what you and your little friends do to anyone that challenges your erroneous mess

Spiritual Israelite said:
QUOTE
"LOL. You are hilarious. This is all you have in response to someone exegeting scripture. You never exegete scripture yourself. And we're supposed to believe you? LOL. You are completely delusional."


My PUHSBACK AT HIS MESS
QUOTE
"Show me anywhere in his post, he depicted a postrib rapture.
I will wait.
I get a chuckle out of that egg on your face."

YOU guys set the bar.
You want to be rude?
you want to be nasty?

Then don't cry when you get shoved back.
Stop whining.
Get a Bible
Stop omitting what challenges your erroneous deal.

 

[The Light]

You're misunderstanding of Matthew 24 is causing you to get confused. I've already addressed this several times with you, and as usual, you have avoided. I will repeat:

You always claim avoidance. You post many, many posts. I work contract so I work when I want, but sometimes I have to get things done. If I don't respond to you.............I'm sure not avoiding you. I usually just miss that you have posted something that needs attention.

End-Time Great Tribulation Centred Upon Earthly Jerusalem???

You are looking to the wrong Jerusalem. I don’t believe that the focal point of end-time history is upon earthly Jerusalem (that is under bondage); I believe that it will be focused upon the inhabitants of the New Jerusalem – you and me. I believe in a global opposition/persecution. I do not literalise any of the above symbolic references in Revelation as they are employed to impress New Testament spiritual truths. John repeatedly employs prominent Old Testament imagery to impress glorious spiritual New Testament truths. He used familiar Old Testament geographical locations and physical events within the old economy era to explain literal future spiritual events.

Who sold you this bill of goods.

The new Jerusalem is happens after the wrath of God. This does even make sense.

“No, Nor Ever Shall Be”

It is not necessary speaking of size or scope; some import that into it. It is speaking of the overwhelming effect and destruction it had upon one particular disobedient people – the Jews; a people that should have known better. The Roman siege in 70 A.D. resulted in the total destruction of the city and of life within the city. Their whole culture, political and religious structure that was intimately tied to Jerusalem was in one foul swoop swiftly and effectively eliminated. The fact is, they still haven’t recovered 2,000 years later. They are the only major religion in the world that still doesn’t own their religious centre. This all resulted from this great tribulation from God. The world would never again witness such a swift, complete and lasting destruction of a whole people/culture and their religious place of worship and associated belief system.

The concluding statement in our last reading in Matthew 24 says, of this heavenly judgment and its aftermath, “For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time (i.e. from creation to AD 70), no, nor ever shall be (speaking of a distinct time-period following this judgment, which manifestly involves various trials only of lesser impact, namely AD 70 till the second coming).” In these words of the Lord, we see the confirmation of the fact that there would assuredly be a stretch of time following this great tribulation, just as there was a time period preceding it.

AD 70 not only seen the slaughter of the Jewish people on a mammoth scale, it also seen the removal of their place of worship (and their innate method of worship) and seen the removal of them from their beloved homeland. In this sense AD 70 is unprecedented. Everything they stood for was demolished, including their faith. The only ones that survived complete were the Christians that fled to the Judean mountains as directed by the Lord. In coming to their position, Pretribbers totally ignore the context and the subject matter in view – namely Jerusalem, the Jews and their escape from the AD 70 destruction. It should be remembered, it is not one single element of AD 70 it is the collective depth and impact that it had that caused it to be described like this. Everything sunk at the one time. They have still yet to recover.

Looking at Matthew
Matthew 24
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Daniel 9
and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Who told you that Christ confirms a covenant with many for ONE WEEK?

God's covenants are eternal,

Did Christ destroy the city and the sanctuary?

All your claims are wrong. Run away from the Church that is teaching this nonsense.

 

[Douggg]

Doug, Amils believe the Word of God shows great tribulation has been and is on-going since Christ ushered in His universal Church and shall continue until Christ comes again. Therefore, Amil indeed are post tribulation believers!

The post-trib rapture view is widely recognized as the rapture taking place on the day that Jesus returns.

The Amil belief of the great tribulation as you described it, does not coincide with what is commonly known as the post-trib view.

"trib" in the post-trib view, the pre-trib view, the mid-trib view - refers to the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27. (Amil does not recognize that there will be a future 7 year 70th week, correct ? )

To me, "trib" as used by those views is a misnomer because the entire 70th week is not tribulation. None-the-less those views are well-known and well-defined.

imo, what Amil believes is the "Amil rapture timing view" - i.e. that the rapture will happen on the day that Jesus returns, that day to happen without sign nor warning. Call it that, and not the post-trib view, which widely known and well-defined.

But Amil, with great expectation and faith KNOW without doubting that Christ will indeed come again on one day that is coming

The Amil view of Jesus's Second Coming fails to relate to any of these end times time-frames in the bible - mainly because of the Amil view of the great tribulation.

 

[WPM]

Here is the real world that prompts my pushback to what you and your little friends do to anyone that challenges your erroneous mess

Spiritual Israelite said:
QUOTE
"LOL. You are hilarious. This is all you have in response to someone exegeting scripture. You never exegete scripture yourself. And we're supposed to believe you? LOL. You are completely delusional."


My PUHSBACK AT HIS MESS
QUOTE
"Show me anywhere in his post, he depicted a postrib rapture.
I will wait.
I get a chuckle out of that egg on your face."

YOU guys set the bar.
You want to be rude?
you want to be nasty?

Then don't cry when you get shoved back.
Stop whining.
Get a Bible
Stop omitting what challenges your erroneous deal.

Don't even go there. It is unreal the venemous verbal abuse that Posttribbers endure here. It is brutal and vicious how you (and your Pretrib friends) communicate with Posttribers. You guys show no mercy and no grace. You are ruthless and unrelenting. I exempt Doug from these comments. Even though I disagree with him, he is Christ-like.

You are sitting there with so much egg on your face you can not see that your house is on fire, but you turn to your air purifier for a ridiculous remedy.

You rode that beast/doctrine that carried you into the desert and I slew it. Now you are a foot. Time to get with it. Get that Bible out and enjoy the ride. Be free and agree with Jesus and His Holy Book.

Get thee behind me satan.

Dont twist my words Satan.

that's not your agenda here! Satan!

You should seek someone to lay hands hands on you and see if you can get that evil spirit cast out of you.

That's just like the gay guys and the trans supporters and gbtzers and all of their ilk.

Are you and him gay too? You have the same spirit. You guys sound just them guys. Ok go on crusade against me boi.

Wow, look at that. Jerico started a good thread, and it's like the enemy dispatched a platoon of evil ones who seek to shut it down and derail it.

an evil band of spirits instruct people to shut that thread down!

I think all you evil spirits here to disrupt and distract from the truth have shot yourself in the foot in this thread.

evil spirits say, rapture doctrine is wrong

you have no heart.

Gaslighter.

I'm pretty sure his nickname is Christmas as he is slow as Christmas

You are Kukoo.

There's that 60 IQ shining through for you.

you have the comprehension of a 60 IQ man

Gossip on Mamm...Have you been staying home with the ladies too much or what?

Pull your panties back down outta your crack for now about it has to be pretrib. I'll get to that soon enough, lol.

Dont debate like a woman. If you (continue) to not offer a correction to the truth makes it seem like you debate like a woman.

No offense brother, but you talk like a woman.

You posting scriptures that dont even match what you're saying and then getting frustrated and popping off....is exactly how women talk

You showed your true colors. You & your wife and your son?

I've been trying for days to get your wife to turn to the book of Daniel and she refuses.

Then you weirdos say they have no scripture...

Jesus Himself said it IS TRUE…

Matt 13:
[14] And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

It is beyond your comprehension BECAUSE it is “EASIER” to simply maintain your stubbornness and REJECT, rather than to “DISCOVER” the meaning of Jesus’ teaching, and HOW TO, understand the meaning of Jesus’ teaching.

It’s not rocket-science.

Easy to see why God Himself said the Carnal Mind is against Him…the same holds true of men against men!

Well, what was your career? I know it was nothing technical. I know it was nothing in mathematics. I think most likely just manual labor. Small chance of sales but it would be at a shoe store or target, Best Buy of the like. Not likely you would sell anything like air conditioners or such things.

From your responses I can tell you are retired or without a job, and you when you did work it was likely a manual labor position.

Here are those attackers:

@MA2444
@Taken
@rebuilder 454
@The Light

And guess what? Not one single apology from one of you! Shame on you Pretribbers!

 

[Douggg]

Yes, avoiding your faulty unscriptural charts is my MO. Amen!

You are avoiding all charts by everyone.

You are Amil, right?

So, instead of saying you believe in the post-trib rapture view, say you believe in "the Amil rapture timing view" - i.e. that the rapture will happen on the day that Jesus returns, that day to happen without sign nor warning.

see my post #924. I gave the same advice to @rwb.

 

[WPM]

You are avoiding all charts by everyone.

You are Amil, right?

So, instead of saying you believe in the post-trib rapture view, say you believe in "the Amil rapture timing view" - i.e. that the rapture will happen on the day that Jesus returns, that day to happen without sign nor warning.

Who said "without sign nor warning"?

 

[rwb]

The post-trib rapture view is widely recognized as the rapture taking place on the day that Jesus returns.

The Amil belief of the great tribulation as you described it, does not coincide with what is commonly known as the post-trib view.

"trib" in the post-trib view, the pre-trib view,the mid-trib view - refers to the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27. (Amil does not recognize that there will be a future 7 year 70th week, correct ? )

To me, "trib" as used by those views is a misnomer because the entire 70th week is not tribulation. None-the-less those views are well-known and well-defined.


The Amil view of Jesus's Second Coming fails to relate to any of these end times time-frames in the bible - mainly because of the Amil view of the great tribulation.


View attachment 48012

I really don't care what you and others believe regarding tribulation of the saints and the time for being caught up to meet the Lord in the air (rapture). What I care about is what the Bible tells us about "great tribulation" being the lot in this life for the body of Christ, the Church with a capital C. And the Bible very explicitly shows us, as many through the ages have affirmed, the Church of Christ is built, being built and shall be complete through the blood of the martyrs for Christ throughout the ages, and that is "great tribulation" Christ foretells shall be. There is NOT going to be seven years or one thousand years after the Second coming of Christ where the saints must endure tribulation!

Since the time for saints to suffer great tribulation as they faithfully take the Gospel unto all the earth, tribulation will end once Christ returns again for His saints, then the fire of God's wrath, not more tribulation for the saints, shall be poured out to destroy every living thing left alive on this earth at His coming.

 

[rwb]

You are avoiding all charts by everyone.

You are Amil, right?

So, instead of saying you believe in the post-trib rapture view, say you believe in "the Amil rapture timing view" - i.e. that the rapture will happen on the day that Jesus returns, that day to happen without sign nor warning.

see my post #924. I gave the same advice to @rwb.

How do you define post tribulation?

 

[Douggg]

Who said "without sign nor warning"?

You don't believe in a forthcoming 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27, do you?

You don't believe in any of the end times time frames in the bible as listed on my chart, do you ?

 

[Douggg]

How do you define post tribulation?

The post-trib view is widely known and defined as being that the rapture will happen at the ending of the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27 on the day that Jesus returns, His Second Coming.

 

[rwb]

The post-trib view is widely known and defined as being that the rapture will happen at the ending of the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27 on the day that Jesus returns, His Second Coming.

Okay, then it shall be after great tribulation Christ foretells would come as the Gospel is proclaimed unto all the nations of the world.

 

[WPM]

The post-trib view is widely known and defined as being that the rapture will happen at the ending of the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9:27 on the day that Jesus returns, His Second Coming.

I've told you before, and I will tell you again, please do not talk on behalf of posttribbers. You do not seem to know what they believe. Let them talk for themselves. Most I know believe that Daniel's 70th week is historic. It is already fulfilled.

1. Where is a tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
2. Where is a 7-year tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
3. Where is the rapture mentioned in Daniel 9?
4. Where is a 3rd coming mentioned in Daniel 9?
5. Where in Daniel 9 does it tell us to sever the last 7 years off from this harmonious prophecy relating to Christ’s 1st Coming and propel it 2,000 years into the unknown?
6. Where is antichrist mentioned in Daniel 9?
7. Where does it say that antichrist will make a peace covenant with Israel for 7 years in Daniel 9?
8. Where does it say that antichrist will break a peace covenant with Israel in Daniel 9?
9. Where are the tribulation saints mentioned in Daniel 9?
10. Where does it mention the rebuilding of a third temple?

 

[rebuilder 454]

Don't even go there. It is unreal the venemous verbal abuse that Posttribbers endure here. It is brutal and vicious how you (and your Pretrib friends) communicate with Posttribers. You guys show no mercy and no grace. You are ruthless and unrelenting. I exempt Doug from these comments. Even though I disagree with him, he is Christ-like.























































And guess what? Not one single apology from one of you! Shame on you Pretribbers!

We will note your ugly attitude.
So don't cry when you get shoved back.

 

[WPM]

We will note your ugly attitude.
So don't cry when you get shoved back.

No. I never talk like that - online or at home. It is vicious, crude and un-Christilike. I am a Christian. But this is who you guys are and this is how you communicate. Sad! The scary part is: none of you are convicted of it! None of you apologize. You justify it!

 

[rebuilder 454]

This sums up the crude disrespectful and demeaning ad hominem that exemplifies the approach of most Pretribbers here when they notice they have no response to God's Book.

Cue real world.
Omission is your foundation.
Oh, wait, actually it is precatholic doctrine.
They burned pretribbers and their writings .

How convenient that mostly false erroneous catholic writings, of a made up postrib rapture, (with no verses ...SMH) survived the mass murder and the attempted extermination of pretrib rapture verses and writings.

Those dead ancient men you blindly use to promote false doctrine, and brag about it.
Actually making a banner of dead men and false doctrine.
Yikes!!!!!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I suggested your view is "any day" , not the "anytime rapture view" which I came up with.

Your view spans the rapture could happen between today and the day of Jesus's Second Coming.

Why are you acting as if I believe the rapture and His second coming could be on different days when I have never said such a thing at all?

I have clearly indicated repeatedly that the rapture happens on the same day of Jesus's second coming. It is part of His second coming when everything will happen quickly. After the spiritual time of tribulation that Jesus described, He will descend from heaven, meet us in the air and immediately destroy His enemies. You need to work on your reading comprehension skills, Doug.

So stop referring to yourself as post-trib. But "any day rapture view", as I suggest and define for you.

LOL at you thinking you can tell me what to do. I am post-trib. Just try and stop me from saying so. I am post-trib.

What I suggest to you is stop wasting time on your charts and ask God for wisdom (James 1:5-7) so that He can correct your many false beliefs.

 

[WPM]

Cue real world.
Omission is your foundation.
Oh, wait, actually it is precatholic doctrine.
They burned pretribbers and their writings .

How convenient that mostly false erroneous catholic writings, of a made up postrib rapture, ( with no verses ...SMH) survived the mass murder and the attempted extermination of pretrib rapture verses and writings.

those dead anciebt men you blindly use for false doctrine, and brag about it.
Actually making a banner of dead men and false doctrine.
Yikes!!!!!

Your founder of yout beliefs is the Jesuit Manuel de Lacunza who functioned under the assumed name of Rabbi Ben-Ezra as a "converted Jew". The book was finished in 1790, and then circulated in manuscript form before it was published at Cadiz, Spain, in 1812. This was during the time of Cortez in Spain, and after Cortez the book was suppressed, and as much as possible withdrawn from circulation. Lacunza died in June 1801, before the book was ever published in book form.

Rev. Edward Irving, a Presbyter of the Church of Scotland, who had been the assistant to Dr. Chalmers in Glasgow, translated this book of Lacunza from the Spanish in 1826, and it was published in English by L.B. Seely and Son, Fleet Street, London, in 1827.

This is the origin of Pretrib. It is not in the Bible. It s a Jesuit invention!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Fair enough!

No, it isn't. Despite having explained my view very plainly to him, he still doesn't get it. He followed up your post by saying:

"Are you going to go for the "any day rapture view" as well ? Defined as that your view spans the rapture could happen"any day" between and including today and the day of Jesus's Second Coming.".

So, he is defining a view that says the rapture could occur any day but not necessarily on the same day as Jesus's second coming, which is ridiculous and not what we believe. He said that despite my saying that the rapture happens on the same day of His second coming. It's part of the second coming event on the day Jesus returns. He can't understand anything anyone says. I am post-trib and he can't say otherwise.

 

[WPM]

No, it isn't. Despite having explained my view very plainly to him, he still doesn't get it. He followed up your post by saying:

"Are you going to go for the "any day rapture view" as well ? Defined as that your view spans the rapture could happen"any day" between and including today and the day of Jesus's Second Coming.".

So, he is defining a view that says the rapture could occur any day but not necessarily on the same day as Jesus's second coming, which is ridiculous. He said that despite my saying that the rapture happens on the same day of His second coming. It's part of the second coming event on the day Jesus returns. He can't understand anything anyone says. I am post-trib and he can't say otherwise.

I will delete. I skim his posts.

Added: deleted!

 

[WPM]

No, it isn't. Despite having explained my view very plainly to him, he still doesn't get it. He followed up your post by saying:

"Are you going to go for the "any day rapture view" as well ? Defined as that your view spans the rapture could happen"any day" between and including today and the day of Jesus's Second Coming.".

So, he is defining a view that says the rapture could occur any day but not necessarily on the same day as Jesus's second coming, which is ridiculous. He said that despite my saying that the rapture happens on the same day of His second coming. It's part of the second coming event on the day Jesus returns. He can't understand anything anyone says. I am post-trib and he can't say otherwise.

I think he lives in denial that anyone could in anyway disagree with him or his charts. That is pride!