MA2444
Well-Known Member
Your talking about the Corporate Church perhaps. I think he's talking about the church, us people, Believers. The temple is us, we are the temple of the Holy Spirit.
Big difference!
Mystery Babylon is a CITY Per God's Word
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Your talking about the Corporate Church perhaps. I think he's talking about the church, us people, Believers. The temple is us, we are the temple of the Holy Spirit.
Big difference!
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
When the Bible mentions the "church" it is not distinguishing between those who stay and those who eventually leave. The church consists of Christians who are nominally called that. It is up to the individual to decide whether to remain or not.
(I distinguish this from liberal churches who do not even define Christians as those who hold to fundamental Christian doctrines. They are outside the pale of true Christianity when they deny the Trinity, deny the deity of Christ, or embrace corrupt moral behaviors.)
It is true that the true "bride of Christ" consists only of those who remain after being called "Christians." In this world people have to decide, and God is not going to condemn them in advance. He lets their choices speak for themselves.
The Roman Church included genuine Christians--Christians who remained. To say they were not part of the Roman Catholic Church is false.
Your explanation does not change that. It would be like saying the church you go to is not the "real church." If you consider the church only those who will be judged faithful at the end of time, then there's no sense identifying what the church today is at all!
MA2444
Well-Known Member
I see what you're saying but I dont know a whole lot about the RCC and whether or not real Christians hung around too? I didnt live there. But I do know that the church age is almost over. When the rapture happens, the age of grace and the church is over! It wont be church as normal. The corporate church will have to go underground.
Then it will be the age of Judgement. And of great trials and tribulations. Such as the world has never seen before.
I dont even have a church that I go to on Sunday anymore. I pay my tithes and offerings directly to the poor on the street, and I get my teaching from online teachers on youtube.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
I guess you do what you have to do. I feel that we need to be in a group of Christians to help them the best we can, and to hopefully hear from God ourselves. No individual has all of the gifts--we need, I think, a real exchange of ideas in real relationships.
I'm not a believer in a Pretrib Rapture of the Church. It would take God about one second after the Church is supposedly "gone" to judge the world. He doesn't have to roast the world over the fires of Tribulation in order to punish them.
But we all have to believe what we think is right. Take care...
What a an utterly STUPID statement that is! But I guess that's what I should expect from the deceived like yourself.
I would NEVER claim that God's Word as written is some "children's game". What YOU DO is the "children's game". It is YOU that is 'playing' religion, and your abuse of The Word of God is your sideshow.
Why don't you go and see how many "perspectives" you can CREATE against that Revelation 11:8 and Revelation 17 evidence that the Scripture is pointing directly to JERUSALEM? You'd make those of the "synagogue of Satan" very happen with your "children's game" on that.
Beware Brethren in Christ:
That statement above leaves space for a 'free-for-all' interpretation of God's written Word. It suggests that whatever each person 'feels' is right to believe, then that is OK.
Well, it is NOT OK with our Heavenly Father and His Son Jesus Christ. Lord Jesus mocked those He said were like a reed shaking in the wind...
Luke 7:24-28
24 And when the messengers of John were departed, he began to speak unto the people concerning John, "What went ye out into the wilderness for to see? A reed shaken with the wind?
25 But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? Behold, they which are gorgeously apparelled, and live delicately, are in kings' courts.
26 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? Yea, I say unto you, and much more than a prophet.
27 This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he."
KJV
A reed shaken in the wind Lord Jesus used as an analogy to someone who goes from one doctrine of men to the next, never coming to the Truth of God's Word.
TribulationSigns
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I am not the one who is listening to the false Jews of the "synagogue of Satan". Because you do, that is why you cannot understand God's written Word, nor when someone is showing you Scripture 'as written'.
So here it is again...
Rev 17:1-5
17 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
KJV
Rev 17:18
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
KJV
Rev 11:7-8
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
KJV
MA2444
Well-Known Member
It's all about God wanting to save more of the people on earth. Some people have to be facing death before they will cry out to God.
It's like they say...There no Atheists in Foxholes...
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
That situation already exists. God isn't the Grand Inquisitor who makes people convert by torturing them.
But these kinds of arguments are not why I reject a Pretrib Rapture. I reject it because it isn't taught in the Scriptures. It was taught by John N. Darby in the 1830s alongside his belief in Futurism. I do agree with some elements of Futurism, but I do not believe a Pretrib Rapture doctrine was ever taught in the Scriptures, nor the idea that Christ can come back "at any moment."
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
You've lost your good character, brother. Perhaps this is how you always act when people can't be forced to agree with you?
Calling me "stupid" only exposes your character as unChristian. If you truly let God have His way you would try to persuade others of what you believe without insulting them. Your approach exposes you as a bad teacher.
Can you imagine calling others "stupid" because they don't see the Scripture teaching that the "great city" in Rev 17 is Jerusalem? Can you imagine insulting others who do not agree with you that the "great city" in Rev 17 is Jerusalem when it is not actually identified in Rev 17 as such?
I guess the Scriptures actually encourage stupidity? In reality, you apparently think "the great city" can only be one city, the same city in Rev 11 and Rev 17?
That is an argument, but I would argue, legitimately, that there can be more than one "great city" in the book of Revelation, and that the context is different in Rev 17 than it is in Rev 11. Apart from our disagreement, you need to get back to dying to your carnal nature and submitting to Christ's love. You can't teach what you don't live.
MA2444
Well-Known Member
Havent you ever read
Ecclesiastes 1:18
18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.../KJV
It sounds like you want to withold our accountability to God.
When you walked into school in the morning and they hit you with a big test...did you cry unfair you cant test me in that way it's wrong?
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
As I said, that situation already exists. God isn't the Grand Inquisitor.
But as I said, this isn't the main argument. The main argument is that a Pretrib Rapture is *not* taught in the Scriptures. It must be "read into" the Scriptures through the use of parables and symbolism. And Imminency Doctrine is a misinterpretation of what Jesus meant by saying his coming is "near."
I believe Jesus used his "Coming" as synonymous with "Eternal Judgment." In our lifetimes Eternal Judgment is always near, in all that we do.
That is why Eternal Judgment was "near" in the time of Christ. Israel was rejecting him and facing Eternal Judgment. And many of them did come under Eternal Judgment in 70 AD, when the Romans killed them.
Christ's Coming will be but the last statement of world judgment at the end of the age. But in the meantime, that Judgment appears to be near to everyone. Our conduct is being scrutinized and judged *today!* Many of us will die under judgment in our own time and will immediately come to face our own Eternal Judgment.
That is the message, that Eternal Judgment does not wait until the end of the age. It is already in process right now. We need to repent today.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
How was the church based out of Rome, prior to Constantine? Are you saying the church was pagan controlled?
Of course there were NT churches all over the known world, including India.
We can see in Acts 2:9-11 that God gave them the ability to speak the Gospel in many tongues from around the world. They had the means to start local churches every where. There was no central authority as you imagine it.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
I'm saying that the evolution of church govt. came to focus on Rome as having the preeminent lead role over the Western Church. What other church organization in the West in the Middle Ages can be called "the Church?"
Even the apostle of the Protestant Reformation, Martin Luther, recognized that the Church in the West originated with the RCC. He had himself been a member of it, a theologian working for it, until he was forced out by a corrupt papacy.
I would just add this. The word "church" is used not as applicable only to an elite group of faithful who are predetermined to remain in the church. Rather, it refers to a gathering of professed believers, whether they last or not, who are either organized locally to meet in a specific place at a specific time or are associated with a more elaborate ecclesiastical organization.
It is, in other words, a gathering of professing believers in Christ. The "bride of Christ," on the other hand, is an elite group within the organized church, who in the end are faithful and remain in the church. Christ will only "marry" the faithful in the church, casting out those who prove to be unfaithful.
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Zao is life
Well-Known Member
The new Jerusalem is also called "that great city" (Revelation 21:10). So is she a harlot too? Or is the harlot the antithesis of the great city, New Jerusalem?
New Jerusalem "that great city":
And one of the seven angels who had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying,
Come here, I will show you the bride, the Lamb's wife. (Revelation 21:9)
Babylon the Great "the great city":
And one of the seven angels who had the seven vials came and talked with me, saying to me,
Come here, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot sitting on many waters. (Revelation 17:1).
New Jerusalem is a city of gold, precious stones and pearls (Revelation 21:10-11 & 18-21).
The harlot is "..gilded with gold, precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her FORNICATION" (Revelation 17:4).
The ruler of the faithful kings of the earth is Christ (Revelation 1:5), i.e Christ rules over New Jerusalem.
The harlot city rules over ALL the kings of the earth who commit fornication with her (Revelation 17:2).
New Jerusalem, that great city (Revelation 21:10) is not a city with physical dimensions but is populated by people of all nations, tribes and tongues, and is spiritual:
Hebrews 12
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 to the general assembly and church of the first-born who are written in Heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 and to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
So we could say therefore that
"Those who do not read the scriptures or only believe part of what they read believe that the antithesis of New Jerusalem is a city with a physical boundary that is NOT comprised of all nations, tribes and tongues, just because it's called "the great city" (even though Revelation 13 tells us that the beast will reign over all nations, tribes and tongues; and the Revelation calls Babylon the Great a harlot that fornicates with the beast.)"
Should we now say that we are amazed at how through lack of Bible study some folks are ignorant about what the Revelation's Great Cities, New Jerusalem and Babylon the Great are talking about?
Well, we COULD - but perhaps we should just all stop putting ourselves forward as know-it-alls and admit that we do not always know what we are talking about. Babylon the Great is the antithesis of New Jerusalem whose King is Christ, who rules over the (faithful) kings of the earth.
And as such there is no evidence in the Revelation that Babylon the Great has the physical boundaries of A city on earth. Revelation suggests and implies that it's IN the world, just like the antithesis, that great city, New Jerusalem is already IN the world.
There is no evidence in the Revelation for Babylon the Great being either Jerusalem of the Jews or The Vatican or any other city with physical boundaries unless someone chooses to ADD that to the Revelation. All the Revelation is doing is contrasting the bride of Christ and the harlot by way of a thesis-antithesis comparison.New Jerusalem "that great city":
And one of the seven angels who had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying,
Come here, I will show you the bride, the Lamb's wife. (Revelation 21:9)
Babylon the Great "the great city":
And one of the seven angels who had the seven vials came and talked with me, saying to me,
Come here, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot sitting on many waters. (Revelation 17:1).
New Jerusalem is a city of gold, precious stones and pearls (Revelation 21:10-11 & 18-21).
The harlot is "..gilded with gold, precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her FORNICATION" (Revelation 17:4).
The ruler of the faithful kings of the earth is Christ (Revelation 1:5), i.e Christ rules over New Jerusalem.
The harlot city rules over ALL the kings of the earth who commit fornication with her (Revelation 17:2).
New Jerusalem, that great city (Revelation 21:10) is not a city with physical dimensions but is populated by people of all nations, tribes and tongues, and is spiritual:
Hebrews 12
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 to the general assembly and church of the first-born who are written in Heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 and to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
So we could say therefore that
"Those who do not read the scriptures or only believe part of what they read believe that the antithesis of New Jerusalem is a city with a physical boundary that is NOT comprised of all nations, tribes and tongues, just because it's called "the great city" (even though Revelation 13 tells us that the beast will reign over all nations, tribes and tongues; and the Revelation calls Babylon the Great a harlot that fornicates with the beast.)"
Should we now say that we are amazed at how through lack of Bible study some folks are ignorant about what the Revelation's Great Cities, New Jerusalem and Babylon the Great are talking about?
Well, we COULD - but perhaps we should just all stop putting ourselves forward as know-it-alls and admit that we do not always know what we are talking about. Babylon the Great is the antithesis of New Jerusalem whose King is Christ, who rules over the (faithful) kings of the earth.
And as such there is no evidence in the Revelation that Babylon the Great has the physical boundaries of A city on earth. Revelation suggests and implies that it's IN the world, just like the antithesis, that great city, New Jerusalem is already IN the world.
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Trust me, it is how he always acts. His ego is completely out of control. He needs to repent of his pride and humble himself or he is headed for a fall.
Absolutely.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
"Government" does not equate to "faithful".
God has nothing to do with government when it comes to the church. Matthew 18:20
"For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."
I think you mean that Rome took the lead in apostasy away from God's Word into human theology. There is a difference between religion and being faithful to the Gospel.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
You typically are just saying things to be saying them. Sounds logical right? Nope!
Would you consider Israel's monarchy under the Davidic kings a "government?" Yes?
Then God has *everything to do with government when it comes to the church!* Either that, or God's call on David's life had nothing whatsoever to do with the church.
Certainly it was OT, but the OT was preparation for the NT. Christ was the Son of David!! And Jesus said he would take the government, ie the Kingdom of God, from Israel and give it to a Gentile nation!
Matt 21.43 “Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit."
What pure baloney. Some of the greatest theologians of the church fought through the period of the Early Church Fathers, fighting for orthodoxy in the face of threats from apostates, heretics, Gnostics, separatists. You need to read a little of their history before you just "say things."
Rome was part of the patriarchate system of church government in the Early Church. It eventually become dominant in the organized Church, but this was quite natural when it is considered that the Church existed within an imperial secular government. It worked quite well, despite the fact that any system will be imperfect.
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Timtofly
Well-Known Member
So Jesus was crucified in a spiritual congregation, and not literally in a physical place near a physical city?
Revelation is doing more than contrasting. John saw what Satan's empire of Abomination of Desolation did to Jerusalem. Jerusalem was the seat of power, but Jerusalem became much more than a literal city. Jerusalem effected the spiritual attitude of the entire world.
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