Mystery Babylon is a CITY Per God's Word

[Randy Kluth]

The true church existed outside the control of the Roman Catholic State Church, and its pagan traditions of men

No, no such thing existed. The Christian Church existed *within* the Roman Catholic State Church. Certainly not all within that Church were genuine Christians, or lived up to what a Christian should be. But that's what Christianity is--an imperfect entity striving to fulfill God's call on their lives.

 

[Truth7t7]

No, no such thing existed. The Christian Church existed *within* the Roman Catholic State Church. Certainly not all within that Church were genuine Christians, or lived up to what a Christian should be. But that's what Christianity is--an imperfect entity striving to fulfill God's call on their lives.

I Disagree, No Further Response

The true church existed outside the control of the Roman Catholic State Church, and its pagan traditions of men

 

[Randy Kluth]

I Disagree, No Further Response

The true church existed outside the control of the Roman Catholic State Church, and its pagan traditions of men

Then don't give a response. There was no church outside of the Roman Catholic Church early in certain regions of the world.

 

[Truth7t7]

No, no such thing existed. The Christian Church existed *within* the Roman Catholic State Church. Certainly not all within that Church were genuine Christians, or lived up to what a Christian should be. But that's what Christianity is--an imperfect entity striving to fulfill God's call on their lives.

Your claim is false, the true church lineage is found outside of Roman Catholicism, and they were never part of it, and they were heavily persecuted by Rome

A few mentions, Donatist, Montanist, Novationist, Paulicians, they were never part of Rome, they didn't partake in infant baptism and were also called "AnaBaptist"

Wikipedia: Novatianism or Novationism[1] was an early Christian sect devoted to the theologian Novatian (c. 200–258) that held a strict view that refused readmission to communion of lapsi (those baptized Christians who had denied their faith or performed the formalities of a ritual sacrifice to the pagan gods under the pressures of the persecution sanctioned by Emperor Decius in AD 250). The Church of Rome declared the Novatianists heretical following the letters of Saint Cyprian of Carthage[2] and Ambrose written against them.[3] Novatianism survived until the 8th century.[4]

Novatian theology was heavily influenced by Tertullian, and made heavy use of his writings.[5][6]


Wikipedia: The Trail of Blood is a 1931 book by American Southern Baptist minister James Milton Carroll, comprising a collection of five lectures he gave on the history of Baptist churches, which he presented as a succession from the first Christians.

The full title is The Trail of Blood: Following the Christians Down through the Centuries: or, The History of Baptist Churches from the Time of Christ, Their Founder, to the Present Day.

Timeline from 'The Trail of Blood

 

[Davy]

Jerusalem is definitely playing an endtime role. But after Jerusalem in the OT era, Rome played a big role, as well. Of course, much of the Scriptures and OT Prophecy was concerned with Jerusalem because at that time only Israel was God's People. But in the NT era, it is Roman Civilization that became, in a sense, the "New Israel."

I personally believe that God will return to favoring Jerusalem. But if there is a Millennium, it will take place at that time. So in the present age, both Jerusalem and Rome are "bad guys," or faithless cities. Obviously, we have some agreements and disagreements. Thanks.

Man's doctrine, not God's in His Word.

God's Word reveals the Babylon Harlot is a "great city", and is the city of Jerusalem IN A FUTURE STATE OF FALSE IDOL WORSHIP at the very end of this world. That has nothing... to do with modern Rome. Theories about Rome and a pope today are by those who plant false ideas in the Church to get people's attention away... from JERUSALEM at the end per what God's Word proclaims. It's as simple as that.

 

[Davy]

What's that mean?

Nope... to what you claimed about Babylon... with suggesting it's the Babylon of Revelation, which has been the subject of the previous posts.

You said:
"True . It's the region we now know as Iraq."

So NO, the Babylon that is situated in the nation of Iraq is NOT the Babylon Harlot "great city" of Revelation 17.

Revelation 11:8 reveals what the "great city" representing the Revelation Babylon Harlot is, and it is JERUSALEM for the end.

 

[Davy]

Jerusalem is definitely playing an endtime role. But after Jerusalem in the OT era, Rome played a big role, as well. Of course, much of the Scriptures and OT Prophecy was concerned with Jerusalem because at that time only Israel was God's People. But in the NT era, it is Roman Civilization that became, in a sense, the "New Israel."

I personally believe that God will return to favoring Jerusalem. But if there is a Millennium, it will take place at that time. So in the present age, both Jerusalem and Rome are "bad guys," or faithless cities. Obviously, we have some agreements and disagreements. Thanks.

That's not it.

Like I suggested, you should read and heed Ezekiel 16 where God reveals why He calls Jerusalem a harlot.

This might be far above your head, but it shouldn't be if you have stayed in God's written Word instead of heeding a bunch of commentaries by men. Lucifer rebelled originally against God by coveting God's Throne for himself. Lucifer wanted to be GOD, and still does. The city of Jerusalem is where GOD has said He has chosen to dwell forever, thus Satan covets Jerusalem for himself, and wants to be worshiped in God's place there at... Jerusalem. So that ain't... about Rome.

Even in Revelation 18 we are given metaphors about the harlot city claiming she is no widow and sits a queen, meaning she is married at the end of this world. But married to whom? Satan is coming at the end to claim Jerusalem for himself, and marry her. THAT... is what it's about for the END. And that is why Satan is going to work the great signs, wonders, and miracles, on earth, to deceive the whole world at the END, fooling the majority into believing he is GOD having come.

 

[Randy Kluth]

That's not it.

Like I suggested, you should read and heed Ezekiel 16 where God reveals why He calls Jerusalem a harlot.

This might be far above your head, but it shouldn't be if you have stayed in God's written Word instead of heeding a bunch of commentaries by men. Lucifer rebelled originally against God by coveting God's Throne for himself. Lucifer wanted to be GOD, and still does. The city of Jerusalem is where GOD has said He has chosen to dwell forever, thus Satan covets Jerusalem for himself, and wants to be worshiped in God's place there at... Jerusalem. So that ain't... about Rome.

Even in Revelation 18 we are given metaphors about the harlot city claiming she is no widow and sits a queen, meaning she is married at the end of this world. But married to whom? Satan is coming at the end to claim Jerusalem for himself, and marry her. THAT... is what it's about for the END. And that is why Satan is going to work the great signs, wonders, and miracles, on earth, to deceive the whole world at the END, fooling the majority into believing he is GOD having come.

That's your theory--not mine.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Man's doctrine, not God's in His Word.

God's Word reveals the Babylon Harlot is a "great city", and is the city of Jerusalem IN A FUTURE STATE OF FALSE IDOL WORSHIP at the very end of this world. That has nothing... to do with modern Rome. Theories about Rome and a pope today are by those who plant false ideas in the Church to get people's attention away... from JERUSALEM at the end per what God's Word proclaims. It's as simple as that.

Rome is still playing a role. Fortunately, it has not yet gone over to the Dark Side--only in part.

 

[Davy]

That's your theory--not mine.

No theory; it is God's Word. When God uses an idea in one Book of The Bible, that does NOT mean that idea is only covered in that single Book. Bible witnesses about a matter can span several different Books of The Bible, and that is one of the main ways how God's Word teaches the believer.

 

[TribulationSigns]

I am amazed at how lack of Bible study some folks are about what the Revelation Mystery Babylon is. It is a CITY per God's Word...

Rev 17:3-6
3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
KJV

Rev 17:18
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
KJV

Rev 11:8
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
KJV

The Great City in the Book of Revelation is NOT talking about some literal city somewhere in Europe, the Middle East, or the sin city in Las Vegas. He is talking about His New Testament congregation that once represented the kingdom but is no longer the representation of the city of light, just as the Old testament Israel was. Therefore Babylon the Great represents the unfaithful New Testament congregation of the Lord. Remember the judgment must begin in the Lord's House, not the world or literal city, but the CITY OF LIGHT "in" the world.

Quite frankly, I am amazed at how lack of spiritual discernment some folks have about what the Revelation Mystery Babylon really is. Its not a literal city, but the city of light, the CHURCH!

 

[Davy]

The Great City in the Book of Revelation is NOT talking about some literal city somewhere in Europe, the Middle East, or the sin city in Las Vegas.

Yeah it is pointing to a SPECIFIC 'GREAT CITY', JERUSALEM at the END.

Rev 17:18
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
KJV

Rev 11:8
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
KJV

Let's see, just WHERE was Lord Jesus Christ crucified?? Rome, right, no. New York, since there's a lot of Jews that live there, right? No. Russia maybe? Again no. JERUSALEM... AH... YES! That is where Jesus of Nazareth was crucified.

God's Word is actually very easy to understand, IF... one simply pays attention to what it says as written.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Yeah it is pointing to a SPECIFIC 'GREAT CITY', JERUSALEM at the END.

Rev 17:18
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
KJV

The woman in Revelation 17 is the New Testament congregation of Isarel, the Church. She is a city is a place within the world, not the actual world itself or the world system. Cities are places, whether Spiritual or physical. They are not seen in Scripture representing inanimate apparatus like world methodologies, schemes, formulas, or systems. When we allow Scripture to interpret Scripture, we see the church is often represented as the great city of Jerusalem throughout the Bible. That "Great City Jerusalem" becomes that "Great City Babylon" that dwells within the world as it apostatizes turning away from the words of God to the words of man. That is a city without light where it is now ruled by "lawless man," or as the church has come to read it, "the man of sin."

Matthew 5:14

• "Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid."

There is that Great City in the world that becomes Babylon as it loses its light.

Selah.

Rev 11:8
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
KJV

Let's see, just WHERE was Lord Jesus Christ crucified?? Rome, right, no. New York, since there's a lot of Jews that live there, right? No. Russia maybe? Again no. JERUSALEM... AH... YES! That is where Jesus of Nazareth was crucified.

Facepalm...

You do not even know who the Two Witnesses, and what is spiritually Sodom and Egypt to begin with. They are not two men with supernatural powers like you thought. Consider wisely:

Rev 11:3-4
(3) And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
(4) These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

And Christ speaking to church:
Act 1:8
(8) But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Two Witnesses are Christians within God's New Testament congregation (woman)! Christ was crucified in the Old Testament Jersualem that was fallen, but this same city which has been rebuilt in three days now represents the New Testament congregation today where the body of Christ, Two Witnesses, also killed in the external unfaithful church. Where our Lord was crucified was just outside the great city Jerusalem. This great city Jerusalem is the representation of the Church, which is this city of the great king. It is not the indivisible city itself, but the external Covenant Church which is "without the temple" (Revelation 2) is the earthly representation of the city of peace. And it was in this church where the true Church (two witnesses) of God dwelled, and prophesied.

Hebrews 12:22-23
(22) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
(23) To the general assembly and Church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

The Church is the earthly representation of this city, and that is why Jerusalem is used as a sign, figure or token of this spiritual Jerusalem. The believers being dead or lifeless in the streets [plateia] or wide space of this great city signifies their state in the midst of the Church. The witness of God is no longer tolerated there and the power that these had to preach the Word of God there has been taken from them. They have been overcome and silenced by the beast released from the pit by God. This does not affect their Salvation of course, and that is why Revelation chapter seven says they all had to be sealed first, Revelation 7:1-4. But the beast affects their witness or testimony in the Churches. They cannot effectively preach in the external covenant Church anymore because the spirit of Satan (vile person) ruling there, and made league with Church leaders have departed from the faith unto doctrines of devils. This is why God says of this great city that, it is 'spiritualy' called Sodom and Egypt. Because though the external Church still retains the name of Christ, spiritually speaking it has become as these two cities which were infamous for their abominations and bondage to Satan. When God's people turn from God and forsake His laws, God speaks of them in the spiritual sense as being in bondage of Egypt and in the abominations of Sodom.

Acts 7:39
(39) "To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,"

Jeremiah 23:14
(14) "I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah."
In Revelation the unfaithful congregation is signified spiritually as being Sodom and Egypt because the character of the Church is as it was in these wicked places. Sodom with all her abominations within her did all manner of evil, and in like manner the Church has also become an abomination to God just as Sodom was. The beast has come upon her and she is in apostasy, blatantly having no regard for God's precepts or the witness of truth. Egypt symbolizes a house of bondage. The freeing of Israel from Egypt was used as a figure of believers being redeemed from out of Satan's House of bondage.

Deuteronomy 13:5

(5) "And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee."

As Egypt was a city with a ruler who held the Children of God in bondage before the Lord delivered them, so God pictures Satan's kingdom as a house of bondage from which the Children of God have been redeemed and set free. Illustrations seen in such passages as Matthew 12:29 and Mark 3:27. The Revelation statement that Jerusalem has spiritually become as Egypt signifies that the Church which was supposed to be a City which sets men free, has become a city of bondage and servitude to Satan. As Egypt did, it enslaves, persecutes, and kills the Children of God. The two witnesses being killed 'where our Lord was crucified' clearly equates this great city to Jerusalem. And Jerusalem was the Holy city of God which became unrighteous and killed our Lord Jesus. Again, the true Church being so intimately identified with Christ. These are pictorial images which show that the heathen have come into the external Church and have taken Word of life (Symbolically speaking) away that they may not teach there. This is the imagery we see, which is very much like what we read in the psalms:

Psalms 79:1-4
(1) O God, the heathen are come into Thine inheritance; Thy Holy Temple have they DEFILED; they have laid JERUSALEM on heaps.
(2) The dead bodies of Thy servants have they given to be meat unto the fowls of the heaven, the flesh of Thy saints unto the Beasts of the earth.
(3) Their blood have they shed like water round about Jerusalem; and there was none to bury them.
(4) We are become a REPROACH to our neighbors, a SCORN and DERISION to them that are round about us".

This is the PICTURE that God is painting of His congregation at this time! The Heathen (Gentiles) or unsaved people of the world have come into the Lord's Holy Temple as FALSE PROPHETS AND CHRISTS and people deceived by them and as a brute beast has destroyed the Holy habitation, and laid Jerusalem on heaps. They trample God's Word under foot because they don't want to obey it. They are lawless men who hate and revile those who come with the witness to truth and who exhort obedience. These are those who have scorn for those witnesses in the Church who teach that we should abide by God's law, and that we should repent of this evil. And this is what is happening today. Anyone who seriously teaches that the Church should repent and return to abiding by God's law is reviled, vilified, called old fashioned, legalistic, judgmental, or a host of other spurious names which show their scorn for them. In symbolic terms, these people have laid God's vine waste, as beasts in the spirit of antichrist devouring the sheep. They are symbolically killing the true witnesses in the Church. It is a spiritual warfare which causing great tribulation for true believers.

Selah!

 

[Randy Kluth]

No theory; it is God's Word. When God uses an idea in one Book of The Bible, that does NOT mean that idea is only covered in that single Book. Bible witnesses about a matter can span several different Books of The Bible, and that is one of the main ways how God's Word teaches the believer.

I gave a brief answer because I realized you were not going to indulge me in my own perspective. I don't say you have to agree--just recognize different perspectives.

Obviously, when you say Rome is not a player on today's world scene that is untrue in the sense that Rome retains an important place in current events and in current history. Your statement that it has no value *prophetically,* therefore, cannot be resolved objectively, since you will never acknowledge the value of Rome in history and today. Your view is always based on your own predetermined prophetic values.

This is not something that can be determined only by *your interpretation* of God's word. To deny that "Mystery Babylon" is somewhat obscure flies in the face of the facts. We have the argument precisely because it is a "mystery."

 

[Davy]

The woman in Revelation 17 is the New Testament congregation of Isarel, the Church.

I've already revealed that the "great whore", the "woman" of Rev.17, is a "great city". And per Rev.11:8 we are shown that "great city" is where Lord Jesus was crucified, i.e., JERUSALEM ON EARTH. So any argument against God's Word on that fact is just foolishness.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Great City in the Book of Revelation is NOT talking about some literal city somewhere in Europe, the Middle East, or the sin city in Las Vegas. He is talking about His New Testament congregation that once represented the kingdom but is no longer the representation of the city of light, just as the Old testament Israel was. Therefore Babylon the Great represents the unfaithful New Testament congregation of the Lord. Remember the judgment must begin in the Lord's House, not the world or literal city, but the CITY OF LIGHT "in" the world.

Quite frankly, I am amazed at how lack of spiritual discernment some folks have about what the Revelation Mystery Babylon really is. Its not a literal city, but the city of light, the CHURCH!

I agree that the great city Babylon is not a literal earthly city (it is Spiritual Babylon), but how can it be the church? Can't you see that Babylon will be destroyed? The church will not be destroyed. Mystery Babylon is actually the spiritual opposite of the church, which is represented by the holy city, New Jerusalem.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I've already revealed that the "great whore", the "woman" of Rev.17, is a "great city". And per Rev.11:8 we are shown that "great city" is where Lord Jesus was crucified, i.e., JERUSALEM ON EARTH. So any argument against God's Word on that fact is just foolishness.

It's foolishness to ignore that God's Word says Jesus was NOT crucified in Jerusalem.

John 19:20 This title then read many of the Jews: for the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city: and it was written in Hebrew, and Greek, and Latin.

Hebrews 13:12 And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood.

It's foolishness to think that any earthly city could be "the hold of EVERY foul spirit, and a cage of EVERY unclean and hateful bird." (Revelation 18:2).

Mystery Babylon is neither earthly Jerusalem nor earthly Rome. It is a spiritual city. The spiritual opposite of the holy city, New Jerusalem.

 

[Davy]

I gave a brief answer because I realized you were not going to indulge me in my own perspective. I don't say you have to agree--just recognize different perspectives.

Obviously, when you say Rome is not a player on today's world scene that is untrue in the sense that Rome retains an important place in current events and in current history. Your statement that it has no value *prophetically,* therefore, cannot be resolved objectively, since you will never acknowledge the value of Rome in history and today. Your view is always based on your own predetermined prophetic values.

This is not something that can be determined only by *your interpretation* of God's word. To deny that "Mystery Babylon" is somewhat obscure flies in the face of the facts. We have the argument precisely because it is a "mystery."

Why should I play patty-cake-bakers-man with you on this matter of who the "great whore" and "woman" of Rev.17 is? Rev.11:8 revealed the "great city" is where Lord Jesus was crucified (JERUSALEM), and the last verse of Rev.17 reveals the "great whore" and "woman" of that chapter is a "great city".

So HOW MANY "different perspectives" on that can their be? ONLY ONE, and that is GOD'S PERSPECTIVE per His written Word. Either you accept what His Word says, or you're just play tiddly winks with God's Word, and will never come to His Truth in His Word.

For the believer today that knows The Gospel and believes, and has been baptized, where are you going to find a called of God teacher to help with understanding all of God's Word? You won't find that in the majority of today's Churches. God forewarned His servants in Amos 8:9-12 that He would bring a famine for the end, not for want of bread or water, but of looking everywhere for The Word of God and not finding it. This has happened upon most of Christ's Church today, as very few cover ALL of The Bible line upon line, chapter by chapter.

Many at the pulpit pull a verse from The Bible here, and another there, and often take those verses out of the context subject of the chapter where they appear. It is often seen that those preachers who are able to talk up a congregation with stories and man's philosophy are doing Christ's service when Jesus actually called those hirelings that preach for money treating it as a business (John 10). It makes one wonder just how the majority of Christ's Apostles ever got God's Word across to believers when teaching them, since the majority of the Apostles were not greatly educated. That means an education can help, but not to the level where one is always using 'commentaries' by others to understand God's Word.

This is one of the major problems I run into with many of my Christian brethren; many don't really believe they can develop their Bible study for themselves with asking God's help in understanding, with God Himself revealing it to them by asking Him through Jesus Christ. He will show us, ask Him, and study for yourself, line upon line.

 

[TribulationSigns]

I've already revealed that the "great whore", the "woman" of Rev.17, is a "great city". And per Rev.11:8 we are shown that "great city" is where Lord Jesus was crucified, i.e., JERUSALEM ON EARTH. So any argument against God's Word on that fact is just foolishness.

Revelation 14:8
Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city

Revelation 17:18
the woman which thou sawest is that great city which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Revelation 18:2-3
And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

Babylon is a SYMBOL of the FALLEN CHURCH or NEW TESTAMENT CONGREGATION OF GOD. Note carefully that she was once a faithful representative of God's kingdom but has BECOME the habitation of devils. The physical city of Jersualem does not qualify here at all! Since when a physical city was faithful to God to begin with anyway during the New Testament, even today? Never! You're looking at the wrong Jersualem.

We ARE the church made up of two groups of people. The Chosen Elect and the professed Christians. Many are called, few are chosen! We both are spiritually living stones of Gold, Silver, and Precious stones, as well as wood, hay, and stubble. Therefore, when the church has BECOME SPIRITUALLY "as" Babylon, she becomes a cage of every unclean and hateful birds - where the false prophets and christs with the spirit of antichrist deceive those people WITHIN the congregation who have NOT yet sealed by God. Hello?!
Your dispensationalism vision of physical city, Jersualem, does not qualify at all! Consider the verses in context again...wisely:

Revelation 18:2-4

• "And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
• For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
• And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."

These things spiritually are equated with Famine, with Pestilence, Disease and Plagues and with spiritual shaking or trembling. The fearful signs in the sun, moon and stars of Matthew 24, are NOT literal, but spiritual signs of famine in not hearing the word of God, spiritual disease of a spiritual plagues upon those of Israel who are not sealed (a spirit direct from the pit), and the spiritual earth shaking which shakes the foundations of the church, which is spiritually Babylon and was represented by that city. It's all God's spiritual judgments. Not God very Literally shaking heaven or literally shaking the earth, or stars literally falling from the sky to the earth (as if that's plausible) or figs literally shaken from a tree, or shake of physical city Jersualem, but the spiritual signification of these things concerning the New Testament Church as Jersualem/Babylon! The kings of the earth and the merchants of the earth are people of the congregation with spiritual riches of Gospel to preach to the world. But God called his chosen Elect to come out of fallen church to avoid the plagues God has sent upon her!

Selah!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Why should I play patty-cake-bakers-man with you on this matter of who the "great whore" and "woman" of Rev.17 is? Rev.11:8 revealed the "great city" is where Lord Jesus was crucified (JERUSALEM), and the last verse of Rev.17 reveals the "great whore" and "woman" of that chapter is a "great city".

I'm sorry you see this as petty, as a children's game. It isn't to me. I grant you your interpretation, and would wish you'd grant me mine. Both Christians, different interpretations.

As I've said before, Rev 11 does appear to identify the great city as Jerusalem. That is also my view. But I don't see another great city in Rev 17 and 18 as necessarily the same one as the one in Rev 11.

In John's day, Jerusalem was about to collapse beneath the weight of Roman oppression. Rome was the city that rules over that part of the world. In Rev 17-18 there is no definitive identification of Jerusalem as it seems to have been in Rev 11.

Therefore, I see the great city in Rev 11 as different than the great city in Rev 17-18--2 different great cities. They are stated in such a way that it is being entrusted to those who would know. The identity is not given for obvious reasons. Perhaps the Romans were thrown off by the "city that rules over the world" in Rev 17 by its apparent identification with Jerusalem in Rev 11?

This is one of the major problems I run into with many of my Christian brethren; many don't really believe they can develop their Bible study for themselves with asking God's help in understanding, with God Himself revealing it to them by asking Him through Jesus Christ. He will show us, ask Him, and study for yourself, line upon line.

I agree with your "rant" except that we need something definitively stated in the Scriptures before we can fully accept it as "God's word." Teachers called of God make mistakes too.

Nothing in Rev 17 identifies the great city with Jerusalem. Rev 11 is another vision entirely.

Rev 11.8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified.
Rev 17.18 The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”