Leaders That Don't Support Good Works or Overcoming Sin

[Hepzibah]

One concern I have with the concept of Theosis is that we are already united to God being baptized into Christ. There remains the outworking of what God has worked into us, but to anyone who teaches a "second benefit" spirituality, I ask them how it could be that we don't have everything we need for holy living when the Bible declares we have already received all we need?

Whether you call things Theosis or Latter Rain or Second Benefit or Baptism of the Spirit or any other name, it's saying we lack what we need until we receive this second thing, something added to being immersed into Christ, indwelt by the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Something we still lack.

I can speak from my experience on the side of, we need something extra, or I can speak on the side of Scripture, we have everything we need.

Here's what I think we need. We need to have the faith in Christ for all things, first and foremost the totality and finality of our reconciliation to Him. And we need to make those choices to walk in that faith, to live knowing such things are true.

That's when our change comes, and instead of fighting the wrong fight, which will of necessity put us walking according to the flesh, we will be walking in the Spirit, fighting the good fight of faith, because this primary things will have been settled.

And when we are walking in the Spirit, and something triggers us into the flesh, we can return to walking in the Spirit by refocusing our minds on what is true.

Much love!

So I wonder why most Christians you ask will say that they fail. They have been told they have it already, yet repeatedly fail. This was my testimony till I learnt that something more was required, that is a much deeper submission to Him.

 

[Hepzibah]

Show me scripture that we share or partake in His "energies"

Well we only have to look to Paul who said that he could do all things through Christ who strengthens him. That is the energies of God.

 

[Johann]

Well we only have to look to Paul who said that he could do all things through Christ who strengthens him. That is the energies of God.

Nope--
Paul (Παῦλος):

Greek: Παῦλος
Morphology: Nominative singular masculine form of the name Παῦλος (Paul).
who said (ὁ εἰπών):

Greek: ὁ εἰπών
Morphology:
ὁ (ho): Definite article, nominative singular masculine, "the" in English.
εἰπών (eipōn): Aorist active participle, nominative singular masculine, from the verb εἶπον (eipon, "to say").
that he could do (ὅτι ἐγὼ ἰσχύω):

Greek: ὅτι ἐγὼ ἰσχύω
Morphology:
ὅτι (hoti): Conjunction meaning "that" or "because".
ἐγὼ (egō): Personal pronoun, first person singular, "I".
ἰσχύω (ischyō): Present active indicative, first person singular, "I am able" or "I can".
all things (πάντα)

Greek: πάντα
Morphology: Accusative plural neuter form of πᾶς (pas), meaning "all" or "everything".
through Christ (ἐν τῷ Χριστῷ)

Greek: ἐν τῷ Χριστῷ
Morphology:
ἐν (en): Preposition meaning "in" or "through".
τῷ (tō): Definite article, dative singular masculine/neuter form of ὁ (ho), "the".
Χριστῷ (Christō): Dative singular masculine form of Χριστός (Christos), "Christ".
who strengthens (ὁ ἐνδυναμῶν)

Greek: ὁ ἐνδυναμῶν
Morphology:
ὁ (ho): Definite article, nominative singular masculine, "the".
ἐνδυναμῶν (endynamōn): Present active participle, nominative singular masculine, from the verb ἐνδυναμόω (endynamoo, "to empower" or "to strengthen").
him (αὐτὸν)

Greek: αὐτὸν
Morphology: Accusative singular masculine form of αὐτός (autos), "him".
So, the entire phrase "Paul who said that he could do all things through Christ who strengthens him" in Greek could be rendered as:

Παῦλος ὁ εἰπών ὅτι ἐγὼ πάντα ἰσχύω ἐν τῷ Χριστῷ τῷ ἐνδυναμῶν αὐτὸν.

I would appreciate if we stay to the biblical terminologies and not what the ECF wrote with their foreign concepts.

What is ἐνδυναμῶν?

 

[Hepzibah]

I am not Eastern Orthodox and will never be. I think they are very important because of the doctrines the early church did not teach like a great deal of Protestantism. God will judge us on whether we support these departures from the faith.

The spirituality they taught via Theosis which is also known as entire sanctification is found in the west . I am not going to argue about that doctrine. I am not epi/John. I will only enter discussions about it with those who are seeking and interested.

 

[Johann]

I am not Eastern Orthodox and will never be. I think they are very important because of the doctrines the early church did not teach like a great deal of Protestantism. God will judge us on whether we support these departures from the faith.

The spirituality they taught via Theosis which is also known as entire sanctification is found in the west . I am not going to argue about that doctrine. I am not epi/John. I will only enter discussions about it with those who are seeking and interested.

What I posted is biblical and since you deny the ongoing progressive aspect of sanctification you are a god--just as the ECF wrote about.
Don't mention "lone wolves" again, I asked you a question and this is your reaction-meaning you won't have any further discussions with me.

The Wesleyan Holiness Movement is still alive and active.
J.

 

[Hepzibah]

What I posted is biblical and since you deny the ongoing progressive aspect of sanctification you are a god--just as the ECF wrote about.
Don't mention "lone wolves" again, I asked you a question and this is your reaction-meaning you won't have any further discussions with me.

The Wesleyan Holiness Movement is still alive and active.
J.

I already said that it is progressive as well as instant. You are misrepresenting me therefore Johann.

 

[marks]

So I wonder why most Christians you ask will say that they fail. They have been told they have it already, yet repeatedly fail. This was my testimony till I learnt that something more was required, that is a much deeper submission to Him.

The simplicity of the words "trust and obey" make it sound easy. Yes, a deep trust and deep submission, that's it I think!

Much love!

 

[Johann]

I already said that it is progressive as well as instant. You are misrepresenting me therefore Johann.

Right--

3) "That by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature." Based on a knowledge of the trustworthy character, attributes, and promises of God, Peter wrote that the brethren addressed might be or progressively become (Greek theias koinoi phuseos) sharers of the godly nature of fleshly conduct of Jesus, living as He lived, imitating His life, Mar_8:34; 1Co_11:1; Heb_12:10.

4) "Having escaped the corruption." Salvation delivers the soul from eternal corruption and the saved are called to live the life of virtue, holiness, above corruption, the goal is perfection, though never attained in the flesh, Mat_5:48; 1Co_9:26-27; 2Pe_2:18.

5) "That is in the world through lust " In the (kosmo) world order or system, under the taint and power of sin and Satan, Rom_8:20-22. This world system shall pass and the lust (Greek epithumia phthoras) (deranged desires) of it. 1Jn_2:15; 1Jn_2:17. Peter, therefore like our Lord, Paul, and John, admonishes brethren to seek to live the higher life, to walk the narrow way that blesses men and honors God. Mat_7:13.

Partakers of the divine nature - This is a very important and a difficult phrase. An expression somewhat similar occurs in Heb_12:10; “That we might be partakers of his holiness.” See the notes at that verse. In regard to the language here used, it may be observed:
(1) That it is directly contrary to all the notions of “Pantheism” - or the belief that all things are now God, or a part of God - for it is said that the object of the promise is, that we “may become partakers of the divine nature,” not that we are now.

(2) It cannot be taken in so literal a sense as to mean that we can ever partake of the divine “essence,” or that we shall be “absorbed” into the divine nature so as to lose our individuality.

This idea is held by the Budhists; and the perfection of being is supposed by them to consist in such absorption, or in losing their own individuality, and their ideas of happiness are graduated by the approximation which may be made to that state. But this cannot be the meaning here, because:
(a) It is in the nature of the case” impossible. There must be forever an essential difference between a created and an uncreated mind.

(b) This would argue that the Divine Mind is not perfect. If this absorption was necessary to the completeness of the character and happiness of the Divine Being, then he was imperfect before; if before perfect, he would not be after the absorption of an infinite number of finite and imperfect minds.

(c) In all the representations of heaven in the Bible, the idea of “individuality” is one that is prominent. “Individuals” are represented everywhere as worshippers there, and there is no intimation that the separate existence of the redeemed is to be absorbed and lost in the essence of the Deity. Whatever is to be the condition of man hereafter, he is to have a separate and individual existence, and the number of intelligent beings is never to be diminished either by annihilation, or by their being united to any other spirit so that they shall become one.
The reference then, in this place, must be to the “moral” nature of God; and the meaning is, that they who are renewed become participants of the same “moral” nature; that is, of the same views, feelings, thoughts, purposes, principles of action. Their nature as they are born, is sinful, and prone to evil Eph_2:3, their nature as they are born again, becomes like that of God. They are made like God; and this resemblance will increase more and more forever, until in a much higher sense than can be true in this world, they may be said to have become “partakers of the divine nature.” Let us remark, then,
(a) That “man” only, of all the dwellers on the earth, is capable of rising to this condition. The nature of all the other orders of creatures here below is incapable of any such transformation that it can be said that they become “partakers of the divine nature.”
(b) It is impossible now to estimate the degree of approximation to which man may yet rise toward God, or the exalted sense in which the term may yet be applicable to him; but the prospect before the believer in this respect is most glorious. Two or three circumstances may be referred to here as mere hints of what we may yet be:
(1) Let anyone reflect on the amazing advances made by himself since the period of infancy. But a few, very few years ago, he knew nothing. He was in his cradle, a poor, helpless infant. He knew not the use of eyes, or ears, or hands, or feet. He knew not the name or use of anything, not even the name of father or mother. He could neither walk, nor talk, nor creep. He did not know even that a candle would burn him if he put his finger there. He knew not how to grasp or hold a rattle, or what was its sound, or whence that sound or any other sound came. Let him think what he is at twenty, or forty, in comparison with this; and then, if his improvement in every similar number of years hereafter “should” be equal to this, who can tell the height to which he will rise?
(2) We are here limited in our own powers of learning about God or his works. We become acquainted with him through his works - by means of “the senses.” But by the appointment of this method of becoming acquainted with the external world, the design seems to have been to accomplish a double work quite contradictory - one to help us, and the other to hinder us. One is to give us the means of communicating with the external world - by the sight, the hearing, the smell, the touch, the taste; the other is to shut us out from the external world, except by these. The body is a casement, an enclosure, a prison in which the soul is incarcerated, from which we can look out on the universe only through these organs. But suppose, as may be the case in a future state, there shall be no such enclosure, and that the whole soul may look directly on the works of God - on spiritual existences, on God himself - who can then calculate the height to which man may attain in becoming a “partaker of the divine nature?”
(3) We shall have an “eternity” before us to grow in knowledge, and in holiness, and in conformity to God. Here, we attempt to climb the hill of knowledge, and having gone a few steps - while the top is still lost in the clouds - we lie down and die. We look at a few things; become acquainted with a few elementary principles; make a little progress in virtue, and then all our studies and efforts are suspended, and “we fly away.” In the future world we shall have an “eternity” before us to make progress in knowledge, and virtue, and holiness, uninterrupted; and who can tell in what exalted sense it may yet be true that we shall be “partakers of the divine nature,” or what attainments we may yet make?
Having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust - The world is full of corruption. It is the design of the Christian plan of redemption to deliver us from that, and to make us holy; and the means by which we are to be made like God, is by rescuing us from its dominion.
Barnes

Heb 12:10 For γὰρ truly μὲν - Οἱ they were disciplining [us] ἐπαίδευον, for πρὸς a few ὀλίγας days, ἡμέρας according to κατὰ that τὸ seeming good δοκοῦν to them; αὐτοῖς but [He] δὲ - ὁ for ἐπὶ [our] τὸ benefitting, συμφέρον in order εἰς - τὸ to share μεταλαβεῖν - τῆς His αὐτοῦ. holiness. ἁγιότητος

In what sense are we to share in His holiness? I am human, fallible, and probably misread your belief in progressive sanctification.

That we might be partakers of his holiness (εἰς το μεταλαβεῖν τῆς ἁγιότητος αὐτοῦ)

 

[Johann]

Right--

3) "That by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature." Based on a knowledge of the trustworthy character, attributes, and promises of God, Peter wrote that the brethren addressed might be or progressively become (Greek theias koinoi phuseos) sharers of the godly nature of fleshly conduct of Jesus, living as He lived, imitating His life, Mar_8:34; 1Co_11:1; Heb_12:10.

4) "Having escaped the corruption." Salvation delivers the soul from eternal corruption and the saved are called to live the life of virtue, holiness, above corruption, the goal is perfection, though never attained in the flesh, Mat_5:48; 1Co_9:26-27; 2Pe_2:18.

5) "That is in the world through lust " In the (kosmo) world order or system, under the taint and power of sin and Satan, Rom_8:20-22. This world system shall pass and the lust (Greek epithumia phthoras) (deranged desires) of it. 1Jn_2:15; 1Jn_2:17. Peter, therefore like our Lord, Paul, and John, admonishes brethren to seek to live the higher life, to walk the narrow way that blesses men and honors God. Mat_7:13.

Partakers of the divine nature - This is a very important and a difficult phrase. An expression somewhat similar occurs in Heb_12:10; “That we might be partakers of his holiness.” See the notes at that verse. In regard to the language here used, it may be observed:
(1) That it is directly contrary to all the notions of “Pantheism” - or the belief that all things are now God, or a part of God - for it is said that the object of the promise is, that we “may become partakers of the divine nature,” not that we are now.

(2) It cannot be taken in so literal a sense as to mean that we can ever partake of the divine “essence,” or that we shall be “absorbed” into the divine nature so as to lose our individuality.

This idea is held by the Budhists; and the perfection of being is supposed by them to consist in such absorption, or in losing their own individuality, and their ideas of happiness are graduated by the approximation which may be made to that state. But this cannot be the meaning here, because:
(a) It is in the nature of the case” impossible. There must be forever an essential difference between a created and an uncreated mind.

(b) This would argue that the Divine Mind is not perfect. If this absorption was necessary to the completeness of the character and happiness of the Divine Being, then he was imperfect before; if before perfect, he would not be after the absorption of an infinite number of finite and imperfect minds.

(c) In all the representations of heaven in the Bible, the idea of “individuality” is one that is prominent. “Individuals” are represented everywhere as worshippers there, and there is no intimation that the separate existence of the redeemed is to be absorbed and lost in the essence of the Deity. Whatever is to be the condition of man hereafter, he is to have a separate and individual existence, and the number of intelligent beings is never to be diminished either by annihilation, or by their being united to any other spirit so that they shall become one.
The reference then, in this place, must be to the “moral” nature of God; and the meaning is, that they who are renewed become participants of the same “moral” nature; that is, of the same views, feelings, thoughts, purposes, principles of action. Their nature as they are born, is sinful, and prone to evil Eph_2:3, their nature as they are born again, becomes like that of God. They are made like God; and this resemblance will increase more and more forever, until in a much higher sense than can be true in this world, they may be said to have become “partakers of the divine nature.” Let us remark, then,
(a) That “man” only, of all the dwellers on the earth, is capable of rising to this condition. The nature of all the other orders of creatures here below is incapable of any such transformation that it can be said that they become “partakers of the divine nature.”
(b) It is impossible now to estimate the degree of approximation to which man may yet rise toward God, or the exalted sense in which the term may yet be applicable to him; but the prospect before the believer in this respect is most glorious. Two or three circumstances may be referred to here as mere hints of what we may yet be:
(1) Let anyone reflect on the amazing advances made by himself since the period of infancy. But a few, very few years ago, he knew nothing. He was in his cradle, a poor, helpless infant. He knew not the use of eyes, or ears, or hands, or feet. He knew not the name or use of anything, not even the name of father or mother. He could neither walk, nor talk, nor creep. He did not know even that a candle would burn him if he put his finger there. He knew not how to grasp or hold a rattle, or what was its sound, or whence that sound or any other sound came. Let him think what he is at twenty, or forty, in comparison with this; and then, if his improvement in every similar number of years hereafter “should” be equal to this, who can tell the height to which he will rise?
(2) We are here limited in our own powers of learning about God or his works. We become acquainted with him through his works - by means of “the senses.” But by the appointment of this method of becoming acquainted with the external world, the design seems to have been to accomplish a double work quite contradictory - one to help us, and the other to hinder us. One is to give us the means of communicating with the external world - by the sight, the hearing, the smell, the touch, the taste; the other is to shut us out from the external world, except by these. The body is a casement, an enclosure, a prison in which the soul is incarcerated, from which we can look out on the universe only through these organs. But suppose, as may be the case in a future state, there shall be no such enclosure, and that the whole soul may look directly on the works of God - on spiritual existences, on God himself - who can then calculate the height to which man may attain in becoming a “partaker of the divine nature?”
(3) We shall have an “eternity” before us to grow in knowledge, and in holiness, and in conformity to God. Here, we attempt to climb the hill of knowledge, and having gone a few steps - while the top is still lost in the clouds - we lie down and die. We look at a few things; become acquainted with a few elementary principles; make a little progress in virtue, and then all our studies and efforts are suspended, and “we fly away.” In the future world we shall have an “eternity” before us to make progress in knowledge, and virtue, and holiness, uninterrupted; and who can tell in what exalted sense it may yet be true that we shall be “partakers of the divine nature,” or what attainments we may yet make?
Having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust - The world is full of corruption. It is the design of the Christian plan of redemption to deliver us from that, and to make us holy; and the means by which we are to be made like God, is by rescuing us from its dominion.
Barnes

Heb 12:10 For γὰρ truly μὲν - Οἱ they were disciplining [us] ἐπαίδευον, for πρὸς a few ὀλίγας days, ἡμέρας according to κατὰ that τὸ seeming good δοκοῦν to them; αὐτοῖς but [He] δὲ - ὁ for ἐπὶ [our] τὸ benefitting, συμφέρον in order εἰς - τὸ to share μεταλαβεῖν - τῆς His αὐτοῦ. holiness. ἁγιότητος

In what sense are we to share in His holiness? I am human, fallible, and probably misread your belief in progressive sanctification.

That we might be partakers of his holiness (εἰς το μεταλαβεῖν τῆς ἁγιότητος αὐτοῦ)

12:10 "but He disciplines us for our good so that we may share His holiness" Every believer is sanctified at salvation (positional sanctification) and is called to holiness (progressive sanctification). This is God's purpose for every believer (cf. Matt. 5:48; Rom. 8:28-30; 2 Cor. 3:18; 7:1; Gal. 4:19; Eph. 4:13; 1 Thess. 3:13; 4:3,7; 1 Pet. 1:15). Believers are predestined to holiness (cf. Eph. 1:4). It often occurs only in a disciplinary setting (cf. Heb. 5:8 and Rom. 8:17).

The NT asserts that when sinners turn to Jesus in repentance and faith (cf. Mark 1:15; Acts 3:16,19; 20:21), they are instantaneously justified and sanctified. This is their new position in Christ. His righteousness has been imputed to them (cf. Gen. 15:6; Romans 4). They are declared right and holy (a forensic act of God).

But the NT also urges believers on to holiness or sanctification. It is both

a theological position in the finished work of Jesus Christ
a call to be Christlike in attitude and actions in daily life. As salvation is a free gift and a cost-everything lifestyle, so too, is sanctification (i.e., Eastern Literature [biblical paradoxes]).
SPECIAL TOPIC: EASTERN LITERATURE (biblical paradoxes)

Initial Justification and Sanctification A Progressive Sanctification, Christlikeness
 Acts 26:18
 Romans 15:16
 1 Corinthians 1:2-3,30; 6:11
 2 Thessalonians 2:13
 Hebrews 2:11; 10:10,14; 13:12
 1 Peter 1:2  Romans 6:19
 2 Corinthians 7:1
 Ephesians 1:4; 2:10
 1 Thessalonians 3:13; 4:3-4,7; 5:2
 1 Timothy 2:15
 2 Timothy 2:21
 1 Peter 1:15-16
 Hebrews 12:14
The goal of salvation is not heaven when we die but Christlikeness now (cf. Rom. 8:28-29; 2 Cor. 3:18; 7:1; Gal. 4:19; Eph. 1:4; 4:13; 1 Thess. 3:13; 4:3; 5:23; 2 Thess. 2:13; Titus 2:14; 1 Pet. 1:15), so that those who see our witness may be drawn to Jesus and go to heaven with us! Sanctification, like justification, is

a gift and a choice
an INDICATIVE and an IMPERATIVE
a trophy and a race
SPECIAL TOPIC: HOLY

SPECIAL TOPIC: HOLY ONE

SPECIAL TOPIC: SANCTIFICATION

Sanctification -- Special Topic by Dr. Bob Utley, professor of hermeneutics (retired).

www.freebiblecommentary.org

 

[Hepzibah]

Here is the scriptural evidence for Theosis/entire sanctification.

Thess 5:23And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

 

[Hepzibah]

(2) It cannot be taken in so literal a sense as to mean that we can ever partake of the divine “essence,” or that we shall be “absorbed” into the divine nature so as to lose our individuality.

This idea is held by the Budhists; and the perfection of being is supposed by them to consist in such absorption, or in losing their own individuality, and their ideas of happiness are graduated by the approximation which may be made to that state.

This is what I have been arguing against here - the idea which quite a few held that 'self' is to be put to death. That is Buddhism and I do not teach it.

 

[Johann]

Here is the scriptural evidence for Theosis/entire sanctification.

Thess 5:23And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

NASB (UPDATED) TEXT: 1 THESSALONIANS 5:23-24
23Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.

5:23 "may the God of peace Himself" This is a common phrase in the closings of Paul's letters (cf. Rom. 15:33; 16:20; 2 Cor. 13:11; Phil. 4:6; 2 Thess. 3:16 ). What a wonderful, descriptive title for Deity!

SPECIAL TOPIC: DESCRIPTIVE TITLES FOR GOD

SPECIAL TOPIC: PEACE (OT)

SPECIAL TOPIC: PEACE (NT)

SPECIAL TOPIC: DESCRIPTIVE TITLES FOR GOD

"sanctify. . .be preserved" These are both AORIST OPTATIVES, which is the MOOD of wishing or praying. Paul prayed that believers be sanctified and preserved by God. This shows sanctification is both a gift at salvation and a continuing task.

The text on divine preservation that is so special to me is 1 Pet. 1:3-9!.

SPECIAL TOPIC: SANCTIFICATION

"sanctify you entirely" In this sentence, two Greek ADJECTIVES, "entirely" and "complete," combined with three NOUNS, "spirit, soul, and body," underscore the completeness of our person, not that human beings are trichotomous beings like the Triune God. In Luke 1:46-47 the parallelism shows that soul and spirit are synonymous. Humans do not have a soul—they are a soul (cf. Gen. 2:7). This phrase emphasizes believers' call to holiness in every area of their lives (cf. Matt. 5:48; Eph. 1:4).

"may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete" This is not a proof-text for an ontological trichotomy in mankind (humans a trinity like God), but humans have a dual relationship to both this planet and to God. The Hebrew word nephesh is used of both mankind and the animals in Genesis (cf. Gen. 1:24; 2:19), while "spirit" (ruah) is used uniquely of mankind (the breath of life). This is not a proof-text on the nature of mankind as a three-part (trichotomous) being, nor is Heb. 4:12. Mankind is primarily represented in the Bible as a unity (cf. Gen. 2:7). For a good summary of the theories of mankind as trichotomous, dichotomous, or a unity, see Millard J. Erickson's Christian Theology (second edition) pp. 538-557 and Frank Stagg's Polarities of Man's Existence in Biblical Perspective.

SPECIAL TOPIC: BODY AND SPIRIT

SPECIAL TOPIC: NEPHESH

1 THESSALONIANS 5

The very God of peace (αὐτὸς ὁ Θεὸς τῆς εἰρήνης)
Better, the God of peace himself. God's work is contrasted with human efforts to carry out the preceding injunctions. The phrase God of peace only in Paul and Hebrews. See Rom_15:33; Rom_16:20; Php_4:9; Heb_13:20. The meaning is, God who is the source and giver of peace. Peace, in the Pauline sense, is not mere calm or tranquillity. It is always conceived as based upon reconciliation with God. God is the God of peace only to those who have ceased to be at war with him, and are at one with him. God's peace is not sentimental but moral. Hence the God of peace is the sanctifier. “Peace” is habitually used, both in the Old and New Testaments, in connection with the messianic salvation. The Messiah himself will be Peace (Mic_5:5). Peace is associated with righteousness as a messianic blessing (Psa_72:7; Psa_85:10). Peace, founded in reconciliation with God, is the theme of the gospel (Act_10:36). The gospel is the gospel of peace (Eph_2:17; Eph_6:15; Rom_10:15). Christ is the giver of peace (Joh_14:27; Joh_16:33).
Sanctify (ἁγιάσαι)
See on Joh_10:36; see on Joh_17:17. The primary idea of the word is separation. Hence ἅγιος, the standard word for holy in lxx is, primarily, set apart. Ἁγιάζειν is 1. to separate from things profane and to consecrate to God; 2. to cleanse or purify as one set apart to holy uses.
Wholly (ὁλοτελεῖς)
N.T.o. So that nothing shall escape the sanctifying power. Ὅλος complete, and τέλος end or consummation.
Spirit, soul, body (πνεῦμα, ψυχὴ σῶμα)
It is useless to attempt to draw from these words a technical, psychological statement of a threefold division of the human personality. If Paul recognized any such technical division, it was more probably twofold; the body or material part, and the immaterial part with its higher and lower sides - πνεῦμα and ψυχὴ. See on Rom_6:6; see on Rom_7:5, Rom_7:23; see on Rom_8:4; see on Rom_11:3 and footnote.
Be preserved entire (ὁλόκληρον - τηρηθείη)
This is the rendering of Rev. and is correct. A.V. joins ὁλόκληρον with πνεῦμα, and renders your whole spirit. Ὁλόκληρον is predicative, not attributive. It does not mean whole, but is derived from ὅλος whole and κλῆρος allotment, and signifies having the entire allotment; complete in all parts. It occurs only here and Jas_1:4, where it is associated with τέλειοι perfect. It appears in lxx, as Lev_23:15; Deu_16:9; Deu_27:6. Joseph. Ant. 3:12, 2, uses it of an unblemished victim for sacrifice. As distinguished from ὁλοτελεῖς wholly, 1Th_5:23, it is qualitative, while ὁλοτελεῖς is quantitative. The kindred ὁλοκληρία perfect soundness, only in Act_3:16. For preserved see on 1Pe_1:4.
VWP

I need your exegesis and context on a verse here, a verse there-no offense.

 

[Johann]

This is what I have been arguing against here - the idea which quite a few held that 'self' is to be put to death. That is Buddhism and I do not teach it.

The concept of putting the self to death or dying to oneself is a recurring theme in Christian scripture, particularly emphasized in the teachings of Jesus Christ and the New Testament writings. Here are some key scripture references that address this idea:

Matthew 16:24-25 (ESV):

"Then Jesus told his disciples, 'If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.'"
Galatians 2:20 (ESV):

"I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me."
Romans 6:6 (ESV):

"We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin."
Colossians 3:5 (ESV):

"Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry."
Galatians 5:24 (ESV):

"And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires."
Luke 9:23-24 (ESV):

"And he said to all, 'If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will save it.'"

These passages teach that to follow Christ and live in accordance with God's will, one must surrender their own desires and selfish tendencies, crucifying the self and allowing Christ to live through them. It emphasizes the transformative power of faith and the importance of spiritual renewal through self-denial and obedience to God.

What is the difference between crucifying the flesh and/or that the ego eimi --dying to oneself? These are Imperatives.

 

[Hepzibah]

It is the old man who is crucifed with Christ. Self is to be denied. They are not the same. You are the Buddhist. We are commanded to love self and others likewise.

 

[amigo de christo]

Show me scripture that we share or partake in His "energies"

2Pe 1:4 through δι’ which ὧν He has given δεδώρηται, to us ἡμῖν the τὰ precious τίμια and καὶ magnificent μέγιστα promises, ἐπαγγέλματα so that ἵνα through διὰ these τούτων you might become γένησθε partakers κοινωνοὶ of [the] divine θείας nature, φύσεως, having escaped ἀποφυγόντες the τῆς decay φθορᾶς. in ἐν the τῷ world κόσμῳ in ἐν desire. ἐπιθυμίᾳ

You need to read the whole chapter.

folks need to read more than the chapter my friend . many need to start fresh
putting down all their so called reading helps
and just read for themselves . The bible , the letters from the apostels
were not written in a code only some wise scholar could figure out .
IT was a letter written to the church that was inspired by the SPIRIT through men .
If we read the whole parts for ourselves , its pretty clear what it means .
and the more we read it the clearer things become .
I am wore out with men who decieve and worse so many just love to sit under them
and have it so .
Not only will i not sit under such , ME IS GONNA EXPOSE EVERY LAST ONE of them
if even i have to die for doing so .
Most leaders have no idea what it means to be a leader . THEY SUPPOSED to be responsible
for feeding the sheep and protecting the flocks .

 

[Johann]

It is the old man who is crucifed with Christ. Self is to be denied. They are not the same. You are the Buddhist. We are commanded to love self and others likewise.

Galatians 2:20 (ESV): "I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me."

Matthew 22:39 (ESV): "And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

Ephesians 4:22-24 (ESV): "to put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness."



NASB  "your former manner of life"
NKJV  "your former conduct"
NRSV  "your former way of life"
TEV  "which made you live as you used to"
NJB  "give up your old way of life"
Peshitta  "your former practices"
The KJV translation has "conversation," which meant "lifestyle" in A.D. 1611 when that translation was written. This clearly shows the need for updating translations! No translation is inspired. Their job is to communicate the gospel to one or more generations. Only the original message given by God is inspired. All translations are mini commentaries.

For a good discussion about translations, see Fee and Stuart, How To Read the Bible for All Its Worth, pp. 33-53.

"the old self" This refers to mankind's fallen characteristics and propensities in Adam (cf. Rom. 6:6; Col. 3:9). It is the priority of self, independence from God, more and more for me at any cost!

Matthew 16:24-25 (ESV): "Then Jesus told his disciples, 'If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.'"


What is "self" and where are we commanded to love "self?"

Mat 22:38 This αὕτη is ἐστὶν the ἡ great μεγάλη and καὶ first πρώτη commandment. ἐντολή.
Mat 22:39 And ‹δὲ› [the] second δευτέρα [is] like ὁμοία it: αὐτῇ ‘You shall love ‘Ἀγαπήσεις your σου - τὸν neighbor πλησίον as ὡς yourself.’ σεαυτόν.’
Mat 22:40 On ἐν these ταύταις two δυσὶν - ταῖς commandments ἐντολαῖς hang κρέμαται all ὅλος the ὁ Law νόμος and καὶ the οἱ Prophets.” προφῆται.

Nature says, "love thyself;" Domestic education says, "love your family above all;" National pride says, "Love your country above all," but the word of God teaches that one should do all these, under direction of the Word and will of God, Mat_6:33.

Who is the Buddhist here?

 

[Johann]

Here is the scriptural evidence for Theosis/entire sanctification.

Thess 5:23And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

I am not denying this verse-"one verse theology" but your INTERPRETATION of this verse.

King James Bible
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

New King James Version
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

American Standard Version
And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Berean Study Bible
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely, and may your entire spirit, soul, and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And may the God of peace himself sanctify you in all things; that your whole spirit, and soul, and body, may be preserved blameless in the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

English Revised Version
And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

World English Bible
May the God of peace himself sanctify you completely. May your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Young's Literal Translation
and the God of the peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your whole spirit, and soul, and body, be preserved unblameably in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ;

1 Thessalonians 5:23 Additional Translations ...
Links
1 Thessalonians 5:23 NIV
1 Thessalonians 5:23 NLT
1 Thessalonians 5:23 ESV
1 Thessalonians 5:23 NASB
1 Thessalonians 5:23 NKJV
1 Thessalonians 5:23 KJV

1 Thessalonians 5:23 KJV: And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Hepzibah]

I have already debated the issue of denying self on epi/John's thread with his video on the subject and have no interest in reviving it.

It is selfISHNESS that is against kingdom rules. We need a self to survive. The old man is to die and the new man in Christ is to serve Him.

Loving our neighbour as ourselves implies loving ourselves, taking care of ourselves, avoiding danger. If we do not love our self we cannot love others. I don't care what various translators say. There is a push for confusion this subject. People are being misled by it. But l am done on this one.

 

[Johann]

This is what I have been arguing against here - the idea which quite a few held that 'self' is to be put to death. That is Buddhism and I do not teach it.

THE OLD MAN
THE OLD SELF

The Old Man (synonymous with Old Self) is all that one was before conversion and all that he was as a child of Adam (all unregenerate men are referred to as being in Adam [cp 1Co 15:22, 45, Ro 5:12+, Ro 5:17+, Ro 5:18, 19+] - all mankind is either in Adam or in Christ, but not in both). The Old Self is the old me that was rebellious against God, and refused to submit to God's law, and which was blind to God's glory, and finally was unbelieving toward His promises. The Old Self is the unregenerate person that was in Adam and was spiritually dead. The Old Self is continually being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit (Ep 4:22). The corruption occurs as a result of giving in to deceitful, evil cravings which are pleasant and promising in anticipation but hideous and disappointing in actuality!

Old Man (Old Self) identifies the unsaved person dominated by the totally depraved nature inherited from Adam, and is that person who is "under sin" (Ro 3:9), is not "righteous" (Ro 3:10), is "helpless" (to save himself) (Ro 5:6), is a inveterate "sinner" (Ro 5:8) and an intractable "enemy" of God (Ro 5:10). And this is the old self believers once were apart from Christ.

John Piper says that the old man describes every unregenerate person as "rebellious against God and insubordinate to God's law and blind to God's glory and unbelieving toward His promises."

Henry Morris commenting on Ro 6:6 says "The term "old man" is used also by Paul in Ephesians 4:22 and Colossians 3:9, referring to the old, unregenerate nature and its sinful ways."

Wuest - the old man here (commenting on Ro 6:6) refers to that person the believer was before he was saved, totally depraved, unregenerate, lacking the life of God... the entire idea is, “knowing this, that our old man, that person we were before we were saved, was crucified with Him, in order that our physical body which at that time was dominated by the sinful nature, might be rendered inoperative in that respect, namely, that of being controlled by the sinful nature, in order that no longer are we rendering a slave’s habitual obedience to the sinful nature.” The words “that henceforth we should not serve sin” imply an obligation on our part. There is such, but Paul is not discussing that in this chapter. He argues that point in Ro 12:1, Ro 12:2. Here the fact is stated, that this disengagement of the believer from the evil nature has been brought about by God with the result that the believer no longer renders a slave’s obedience to the evil nature habitually as he did before God saved him. (Treasures from the Greek New Testament: p.91) The expression, “our old man,” refers therefore to the old unrenewed self, that person which we were before salvation did its work in our being, a human being dominated entirely by the Adamic nature, having a heart darkened by sin, totally depraved in its entire being. It is the person when looked at from this side of salvation that is antiquated, out of date, belonging to a world of has-been. (Wuest Word Studies - Eerdman Publishing Company Volume 1, Volume 2, Volume 3 - used by permission)

ISBE has this entry for old man - OLD MAN - (palaios, "old," "ancient"): A term thrice used by Paul (Ro 6:6; Eph 4:22; Col 3:9) to signify the unrenewed man, the natural man in the corruption of sin, i.e. sinful human nature before conversion and regeneration. It is theologically synonymous with "flesh" (Ro 8:3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9) (Ed: Not everyone agrees with this statement - see Guy King below; See Old Man in Ro 6:6), which stands, not for bodily organism, but, for the whole nature of man (body and soul) turned away from God and devoted to self and earthly things. The old man is "in the flesh"; the new man "in the Spirit." In the former "the works of the flesh" (Gal 5:19, 20, 21) are manifest; in the latter "the fruit of the Spirit" (Gal 5:22,23). One is "corrupt according to the deceitful lusts"; the other "created in righteousness and true holiness" (Eph 4:22, 23, 24 the King James Version).

Guy King in his commentary on Colossians disagrees with the ISBE - "Ye have put off the old man," (Col 3:9). This is not the old nature. Paul's name for that is "the flesh," the entail of Adam's fall, which is in every child of Adam, down through the human race, and which remains with us till the end of our days here below.

Melick notes that "The definition of the old self and the new self is crucial to a proper understanding of Christian experience. Sometimes interpreters understand them as synonymous with an old nature and a new nature. Actually, there is little in Scripture about the “natures” of a Christian person, though there are many descriptions about the Christian’s new actions, desires, and values. To equate the terms old self/new self with natures goes beyond acceptable evidence. The terms are never used psychologically at all. They are historical. The old self and new self are never described as coexisting in anyone. One replaces the other. Finally, the old self is never a proper description of a believer. A believer is a totally new person. (Melick, R. R. Vol. 32: Philippians, Colossians, Philemon The New American Commentary. Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers)

Ruth Paxson in her devotional commentary on Ephesians writes that the Old Self or Old Man "includes the whole manner of life in the old sphere. This term is used only three times in Scripture,—in Ro 6:6+; Col 3:9+; and Ep 4:22...It is all that a man is by nature, so is called "the natural man" (1Co 2:14). (Paxson, Ruth: The Wealth, the Walk and the Warfare of the Christian. 1939. Revell)

Ephesians 4:20-22 Commentary | Precept Austin

www.preceptaustin.org

So where are we to love self?

 

[Johann]

I have already debated the issue of denying self on epi/John's thread with his video on the subject and have no interest in reviving it.

It is selfISHNESS that is against kingdom rules. We need a self to survive. The old man is to die and the new man in Christ is to serve Him.

Loving our neighbour as ourselves implies loving ourselves, taking care of ourselves, avoiding danger. If we do not love our self we cannot love others. I don't care what various translators say. There is a push for confusion this subject. People are being misled by it. But l am done on this one.

Great! I'm done here.