The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[WPM]

You are kidding aren't you Douggg. It's easy for him.

It's the same way you can post dozens of verses that prove him wrong, and his response is you are avoiding answering him.

This tactic comes straight from their teachers in an attempt to keep their fallen doctrine from being exposed.

You can go to any forum and the tactic is the same because their beliefs do not agree with the scripture.

Yea right! LOL. Following Doug's faulty charts is on a par with Scripture or more important. This is ridiculous. This is how ludicrous Pretrib is. It is fanciful.

All that awaits is the white flag. You have no Scripture to support your error. Why not admit it? Your doctrine is in pieces.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You just attempted to racialize God and His Covenant.

You failed.

God is not a racist.

He cannot be contorted into one.

...and yet you showed an ethnic group letting in outsiders.
Ahem..a race chosen by God.
You have no idea what you are talking about.

That word you ascribe "racist" , is just you lowering the bar, then you ascribe God as over a race that graciously allows outsiders into THAT RACE OF GODS PEOPLE.

You Muslim or something?????

They are of Ishmael.
Ahem...a race of people that hates Jews, (the chosen RACE OF PEOPLE chosen by God.)

 

[rebuilder 454]

What? 24 elders are not billions of Christians. Where are you getting that from? It seems like you stretching that to support your teaching. There is no mention of "the Church."



Let me remind you: it is your school of thought that argues that the absence of any mention of "the Church" between Revelation 4 - 19 proves they is no Church on earth. That is what Pretribs have been wrongly taught. You are therefore hung by your own noose. I am using nonsensical Pretrib thinking to hang nonsensical Pretrib thinking.

• You cannot explain to us how 24 Elders represent the whole Church. After all, there are millions of believers.
• You cannot show us anywhere in Scripture where the Church is represented with this symbol of 24 Elders.
• Where does it show 24 Elders being caught up into heaven via a Pretrib rapture?

The symbolism here, like much in Revelation, finds its origin in Old Testament Scripture.

The 24 elders bear a striking similarity to the number, and attire, of the priests that Israel had under the old covenant. They are clothed in white raiment and had on their heads, crowns of gold.

Between 1 Chronicles 24:1-19 there are 24 priests listed, being described as “the divisions of the sons of Aaron.” This is an Israeli depiction.



24 Elders = the Church but 144,000 "redeemed from among men" who belong to the Lamb of God (Jesus Christ) cannot. Hmmmm! Really?

Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
Rev 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
Rev 14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

We need to first establish the location that we are looking at tonight.

Where is this?

What is mount Sion today?

The only Mount Sion were dead believers go and worship the Lamb is heavenly Mount Zion. This is not an earthly scene, but heavenly!



Talk about avoidance. You totally ignored my thesis. That is because Scripture demolishes your doctrine. Checkmate. You have no response. You have no rebuttal. Game over!

He blew you out of the water.
If crowns are distributed. Then the beta judgement has happened

Yet another pretrib rapture dynamic, that we alone own, and you have no verses to challenge it.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Can you please read what I wrote before making these such claims? I already showed you. They escape the approaching wholesale destruction of the corrupted created order that accompanies Christ return - namely “Heaven and earth shall pass away.” God's people will be rescued before the total destruction.

Indeed.
It is called the ptetrib rapture.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Yea right! LOL. Following Doug's faulty charts is on a par with Scripture or more important. This is ridiculous. This is how ludicrous Pretrib is. It is fanciful.

All that awaits is the white flag. You have no Scripture to support your error. Why not admit it? Your doctrine is in pieces.

I don't know how you hang on.
No Scripture, just faith in erroneous ancient dead patriarchs writings.

 

[rebuilder 454]

What? 24 elders are not billions of Christians. Where are you getting that from? It seems like you stretching that to support your teaching. There is no mention of "the Church."



Let me remind you: it is your school of thought that argues that the absence of any mention of "the Church" between Revelation 4 - 19 proves they is no Church on earth. That is what Pretribs have been wrongly taught. You are therefore hung by your own noose. I am using nonsensical Pretrib thinking to hang nonsensical Pretrib thinking.

• You cannot explain to us how 24 Elders represent the whole Church. After all, there are millions of believers.
• You cannot show us anywhere in Scripture where the Church is represented with this symbol of 24 Elders.
• Where does it show 24 Elders being caught up into heaven via a Pretrib rapture?

The symbolism here, like much in Revelation, finds its origin in Old Testament Scripture.

The 24 elders bear a striking similarity to the number, and attire, of the priests that Israel had under the old covenant. They are clothed in white raiment and had on their heads, crowns of gold.

Between 1 Chronicles 24:1-19 there are 24 priests listed, being described as “the divisions of the sons of Aaron.” This is an Israeli depiction.



24 Elders = the Church but 144,000 "redeemed from among men" who belong to the Lamb of God (Jesus Christ) cannot. Hmmmm! Really?

Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
Rev 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
Rev 14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

We need to first establish the location that we are looking at tonight.

Where is this?

What is mount Sion today?

The only Mount Sion were dead believers go and worship the Lamb is heavenly Mount Zion. This is not an earthly scene, but heavenly!



Talk about avoidance. You totally ignored my thesis. That is because Scripture demolishes your doctrine. Checkmate. You have no response. You have no rebuttal. Game over!

QUOTE: "only Mount Sion were dead believers go and worship the Lamb is heavenly Mount Zion. This is not an earthly scene, but heavenly!"
Ooops......you just entered forbidden postribber territory.
You do realized you just admitted to a rapture during the trib of the 144k firstfruits Jews????
....and consequently admit to the rapture of Rev 14:14, which is main harvest jews???

You just affirmed that .

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Your question from your post 669.

My response:

What makes the beginning of the day of the Lord sudden and unexpected is that the world will be saying "peace and safety" thinking it has entered the messianic age.

When, about three years into the (false) messianic age, the Antichrist without warning goes into the temple, sits, claiming to have achieved God-hood.

Which will then be shortly thrust the world into the great tribulation, during which mass destruction will take place.

Again, you are taking 1 Thess 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 completely out of context. The context indicates that the destruction itself will be sudden and unexpected, but your view does not reflect that. Paul said nothing about the revealing of the man of sin being sudden and unexpected, he said the destruction that comes with the arrival of the day of the Lord will be sudden and unexpected. But, in your view the destruction doesn't even come until years after the day of the Lord will arrive. That is not what Paul and Peter taught about the day of the Lord at all.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The time frame is 1335 days of the great tribulation.

So, this means you believe "that day" Luke refers to in Luke 21:34-36, which is the day when Jesus returns, sends down His wrath on the entire earth and heaven and earth pass away will last for 1,335 days?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Because the point is that those time frames of events are inseparable from the day that Jesus returns.

But, you don't address what Jesus said will happen on the actual day He returns, as He does in Luke 21:34-36. You brought up that passage and won't acknowledge that it relates directly to "that day" when Jesus returns, destroys all of His enemies on earth and heaven and earth pass away. That passage is referring to the same "sudden destruction" by fire that will come down on the entire earth from which God's enemies "shall not escape" that 1 Thess 5:2 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 talk about.

You just take scripture completely out of context and think we're supposed to take that seriously. You replace the unexpected and "sudden destruction" that Paul wrote about with a supposed unexpected and sudden appearance of a supposed Antichrist. It's ridiculous how you twist scripture.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

If you don't read my charts, then how can you say that they are in error ?

Doug, why does everything always have to be spelled out to you? Obviously, once someone sees how your charts don't reflect truth, then they become disinterested in them and don't bother even looking at them anymore. That was the case for me as well as many others, I'm sure.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It is not me who is avoiding discussing the Word of God end times time frames, but you. You have no charts of your own to demonstrate that you understand how all the events fit together in concert with the time frames given in the Word of God for those events.

You are embarrassing yourself, Doug. You are literally the only one who thinks someone can't defend their doctrine without charts. LOL. Unbelievable. Such utter nonsense.

 

[WPM]

Op Note

Pretribbers have had ample time to present their arguments and refute the Op. But, so far, no Pretrib has actually directly addressed or rebutted the Op. There is a lot of ducking the obvious. Text after text remains unchallenged and unwavering. The response has been pretty typical for those who engage with Pretribs in end-times discussion. Their main tactic is avoidance and ad hominem. There is a severe lack of actually unravelling the sacred text or addressing the counterarguments. Most Pretrib arguments are stretched and extra-biblical. They depend a lot on forced types and absurd types. Little do they realize, you need to have an anti-type for you to have a type and you need to have substance in order for you to have a shadow. This they lack. They have now resorted to questionable extra biblical charts in order to mask their lack of Scripture.

The 24 Elders

The Light said:

The 24 elders have crowns. Jesus has come. Simple enough.

Pretrib argues that the absence of any mention of "the Church" between Revelation 4 - 19 proves they is no Church on earth. This is one of their main arguments. Yet they are adamant that the 24 Elders represent the whole Church in heaven. This is one of their fundamental beliefs.

But how can they so easily spiritualize the 24 Elders and insist on them being “the Church” but rubbish the idea that the Church is called “saints,” “them which are saved,” the “redeemed,” the “brethren,” the “chosen (or elect), and faithful,” “servants,” those “in / with white robes,” “kings and priests,” “souls,” “fellowservants,” “woman,” “the temple,” “the dead which die in the Lord,” “them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark,” “he/him that overcometh,” “he that watcheth, and keepeth their garments,” “my people,” “his people,” “much people,” “a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation,” “the bride,” “the Lamb's wife,” “they that do/keep God’s commandments,” “the armies which were in heaven” and “they which are written in the Lamb's book of life”?

Talk about twisting Scripture! This is totally ridiculous!

A future rapture in Revelation?

Despite all these pages of engagement, they are still to show their rapture in Revelation followed by a 7 years trib followed by a 3rd coming! Where is it? See the Op for their confession, they do not have it. They cannot even find their rapture of the Church there.

So what do they come up with?

MA2444 said:
They're there, he just dont know where. One of them is
Releavation 3:10
10 “Because you have obeyed my command to persevere, I will protect you from the great time of testing that will come upon the whole world to test those who belong to this world..../NLT

the great time of testing is talking about the Tribulation. I think there's another one, I'll consult my notes and see Revelation 16 maybe?

But where is a rapture mentioned in Revelation 3:10?
Where is a 7 yr trib mentioned in Revelation 3:10?
Where is a 3rd coming mentioned in Revelation 3:10?

Revelation 14 has Jesus with a sickle harvesting Jewish Messianic Jews, TO HEAVEN, while sitting on a cloud in heaven.THEN the Wrath comes
so he gathered up "pre wrath" in Revelation 14:14. Stop trying to mislead everybody with such glaring omissions

But where does it say this is "Jesus ... harvesting Jewish Messianic Jews, TO HEAVEN"? Nowhere! This is how ridiculous it gets when debating with Pretribs. They do not seem to care about the wording of Holy Writ. They will just twist it to support their doctrine.

But where does it teach that "the Church" is raptured before this in Revelation? They will not say. They cannot say.

50/50

One of the most popular arguments lately has been the 50% of God's people are going to be raptured and 50% of them is going to be left behind when Jesus comes.

Wedding feast is in heaven.
10 virgins are the church.
5 are the bride. In fact they go into the wedding chamber...in heaven where the bride is taken.
5 are worthy. 5 are not.
Half the church will be left behind at the pretrib rapture.
A few sentences earlier in Matthew 24 we see the exact same percentage of those taken and those that are left behind which would be another 50% group. That 50% group can only be half the church there's nothing else whatsoever that fits that 50% dynamic.

This is horrible hermeneutics. This is twisting the sacred text in order to support false teaching. So, I challenged this duplicity by asking them further literalist questions, and what do they do? Avoid! They have to because their reasoning is totally nonsensical.

• Does Jesus have 5 or 10 brides in your estimation?
• Do you have to be a female virgin to make the rapture?
• Do you have to have a literal lamp burning with oil at the actual moment Jesus comes to perform your Pretrib rapture?

Spiritual Jew ably refuted this:

He [Jesus] is simply contrasting a difference between two types of people there. There's no reason to read any more into it than that. Same thing with the reference to one taken and one left. He is not saying that literally half of the world's population will be taken and literally half will be left. LOL. Why do you take parables so literally? LOL. Unbelievable.

This is about as good as it gets for Pretrib. That is why this doctrine should be rejected.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The day of the Lord is not a 24 hour period. It will last for eternity. And is comprised of segments.

Says the false teacher Doug. Such a thing is not taught in scripture anywhere. Not even close. Paul indicated what will happen on the day of the Lord in 1 Thess 4:13-5:11 and he described things that will happen some time during an actual 24 hour day. What will happen on the day of the Lord, which Paul indicated is the day Jesus will return and we will be gathered to Him (2 Thess 2:1-3), is that the church will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air and He will proceed to send down "sudden destruction" (1 Thess 5:2-3) by fire (2 Peter 3:10-12, 2 Thess 1:7-10, Rev 20:9) upon "all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth" (Luke 21:35) and "they shall not escape" (1 Thess 5:2-3). You refuse to acknowledge how Jesus, Paul and Peter defined the day of the Lord, to your shame.

The segments (in order) are, as shown on my chart below...

transgression of desolation committed
the abomination of desolation setup
the great tribulation

Show me specifically where these things are said to be part of the day of the Lord. Stop making claims without backing them up with scripture, Doug. And use words. I won't look at your charts. Please quote the scripture and exegete it while showing how these things you listed here are said to be part of the day of the Lord. You can't hope to be taken seriously unless you do this.

 

[WPM]

Indeed.
It is called the ptetrib rapture.

There is nobody left to enter to your imaginary seven year tribulation. It is just went up in a puff of smoke. Read the text!

 

[WPM]

QUOTE: "only Mount Sion were dead believers go and worship the Lamb is heavenly Mount Zion. This is not an earthly scene, but heavenly!"
Ooops......you just entered forbidden postribber territory.
You do realized you just admitted to a rapture during the trib of the 144k firstfruits Jews????
....and consequently admit to the rapture of Rev 14:14, which is main harvest jews???

You just affirmed that .

What happens to the dead in Christ when they die? They enter the presence of God upon death. Are you calling that a Pretrib rapture? Your reasoning is getting more confusing by the moment.

 

[WPM]

Op Note (continued)

Noah went onto the boat six days before the judgment came?

Another major argument that Pretribbers present is this:

Noah was shut in the ark 6 days before the flood, the Church will likely be in heaven 6 years before the wrath of God

This is frankly how ridiculous it gets. There is absolutely no teaching of this in Scripture. This is just a wild theory that is thrown out there as a biblical fact. Talk about twisting Scripture to make your beliefs fit!

Genesis doesn't say he entered the ark 6 or 7 days prior. It shows he received the instruction then. Let us analyze this.

Genesis 7:4-19

1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.
2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.
3 Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.
4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.
5 And Noah did according unto all that the LORD commanded him.
6 And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.
7 And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.
8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth,
9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.
10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.
11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.
13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;
14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.
15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.
16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in.
17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.
18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.
19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.

This is (not surprisingly) in agreement with the words of Christ. The focus is the day the flood came. That is the saleint day in view here. According to this, "the selfsame day" Noah entered the ark was expressly "after seven days." It was then "that the waters of the flood were upon the earth."

Jesus said in Luke 17:26-30, “as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.”

Jesus words support an Amil position and forbid Pretrib. They show what that "self-same day" was - "the day" of destruction, thus the 7th day. Christ speaks of “the days of Noe” (plural), speaking of the days that preceded the destruction of all the wicked. He then spoke of “the day” (singular), speaking of the actual day when the wicked were wholesale wiped out. This contrast between “the days” and “day” is common in Scripture and is presented in order that we can distinguish between “the lasts days” of time and “the last day” of time, that ushers in the end. The actual day that Noah entered into the ark "the flood came, and took them all away." It was therefore an individual day that God closed the door of the Ark and by doing so damned all those that were left behind. The same will occur when our ark – Christ – arrives at the second coming.

Anyway, where did Jesus say that Noah being seven days in the ark (which did not even happen) represents seven days of tribulation at the end? Nowhere! Is there anywhere that says it was seven days of tribulation for the wicked outside the ark before the flood? This exposes the faulty hermeneutics of Pretrib. This is where their force type falls apart. This is theological gerrymandering. Christ's exclusive focus is upon the actual day that Noah entered the ark and the judgment fell right and destroyed all the wicked. There is no rebuttal to that!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What happens to the dead in Christ when they die? They enter the presence of God upon death. Are you calling that a Pretrib rapture? Your reasoning is getting more confusing by the moment.

I know they do not believe in soul sleep, but they never seem to want to acknowledge that the book of Revelation refers to the souls of the dead in Christ when referring to believers in heaven. Nowhere does it indicate that they have immortal bodies yet when they are referenced as being in heaven. John even specifically says he saw their souls in Revelation 6:9-11 and Revelation 20:4, so the idea that he saw believers in heaven with immortal bodies is completely imaginary.

One argument is that the 24 elders having crowns proves that their bodies have been redeemed because scripture indicates that we will receive the crown of life when our bodies are redeemed, yet it does not even specify who the 24 elders are or represent and it does not say they are wearing the crown of life. So, pretrib is entirely based on assumptions and speculation about highly debatable scripture, unlike our amil doctrine which is based on clear and straightforward scripture. It is just a complete mess and I believe any objective onlooker can easily see that.

 

[WPM]

I know they do not believe in soul sleep, but they never seem to want to acknowledge that the book of Revelation refers to the souls of the dead in Christ when referring to believers in heaven. Nowhere does it indicate that they have immortal bodies yet when they are referenced as being in heaven. John even specifically says he saw their souls in Revelation 6:9-11 and Revelation 20:4, so the idea that he saw believers in heaven with immortal bodies is completely imaginary.

One argument is that the 24 elders having crowns proves that their bodies have been redeemed because scripture indicates that we will receive the crown of life when our bodies are redeemed, yet it does not even specify who the 24 elders are or represent and it does not say they are wearing the crown of life. So, pretrib is entirely based on assumptions and speculation about highly debatable scripture, unlike our amil doctrine which is based on clear and straightforward scripture. It is just a complete mess and I believe any objective onlooker can easily see that.

So true. There is no recognition of that!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Op Note (continued)

Noah went onto the boat six days before the judgment came?

Another major argument that Pretribbers present is this:


This is frankly how ridiculous it gets. There is absolutely no teaching of this in Scripture. This is just a whid theory that is thrown out there as a biblical fact. Talk about twisting Scripture to make your beliefs fit!

Genesis doesn't say he entered the ark 6 or 7 days prior. It shows he received the instruction then. Let us analyze this.

Genesis 7:4-19

1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.
2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.
3 Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.
4 For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.
5 And Noah did according unto all that the LORD commanded him.
6 And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.
7 And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.
8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth,
9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.
10 And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth.
11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
12 And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.
13 In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;
14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.
15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.
16 And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in.
17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.
18 And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.
19 And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.

This is (not surprisingly) in agreement with the words of Christ. The focus is the day the flood came. That is the saleint day in view here. According to this, "the selfsame day" Noah entered the ark was expressly "after seven days." It was then "that the waters of the flood were upon the earth."

Jesus said in Luke 17:26-30, “as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.”

Jesus words support an Amil position and forbid Pretribe. They show what that "self-same day" was - "the day" of destruction, thus the 7th day. Christ speaks of “the days of Noe” (plural), speaking of the days that preceded the destruction of all the wicked. He then spoke of “the day” (singular), speaking of the actual day when the wicked were wholesale wiped out. This contrast between “the days” and “day” is common in Scripture and is presented in order that we can distinguish between “the lasts days” of time and “the last day” of time, that ushers in the end. The actual day that Noah entered into the ark "the flood came, and took them all away." It was therefore an individual day that God closed the door of the Ark and by doing so damned all those that were left behind. The same will occur when our ark – Christ – arrives at the second coming.

Anyway, where did Jesus say that Noah being seven days in the ark (which did not even happen) represents seven days of tribulation at the end? Nowhere! Is there anywhere that says it was seven days of tribulation for the wicked outside the arc before the flood? This exposes the faulty hermeneutics of Pretrib. This is where their force type falls apart. This is theological gerrymandering. Christ's exclusive focus is upon the actual day that Noah entered the ark and the judgment fell right and destroyed all the wicked. There is no rebuttal to that!

Exactly. This is a clear case of extreme doctrinal bias when anyone tries to say that Noah entered the ark 7 days before the flood came and that those supposed 7 days represent 7 years of tribulation before Christ comes (What?! LOL!).

By looking at the text in Genesis 7 objectively you can see that Noah was not already on the ark 7 days before the flood came, as you showed by actually exegeting the text (a foreign concept to pretribs). Why would that even have been the case? There would have been no reason for that. Then there is the fact that Jesus indicated that the flood came on the same day Noah entered the ark. Shouldn't we trust that Jesus had an accurate understanding of Genesis 7? Apparently, some pretribs don't (not all pretribs try to make this argument).

Not only is the idea of a 7 day time period reflecting a 7 year time period not indicated whatsoever in Matthew 24:37-39, but also the idea that people would stop eating, drinking, marrying and doing all their normal activities 6 or 7 days before the flood came is beyond ludicrous! Most of them wouldn't have even survived to be killed by the flood in that case! How can anyone take these kinds of claims seriously? I know I don't.

 

[The Light]

Op Note

No Pretrib has actually addressed or rebutted the Op so far.

What you mean is you are so confused you can't even show your own rapture in Revelation.

You are so confused that you can't show where the Church is mentioned in the 144,000 which God says are of the 12 tribes.

You are not only confused but you continue to use the playbook of those that think they have replaced Israel.

DENY THAT YOUR QUESTIONS HAVE BEEN ANSWERED............

There is a lot of ducking the obvious. Text after text remains unchallenged and unwavering.

The only ducking is you not responding to the challenges presented. Where is your rapture verses in Revelation. You have none.

You have to duck the question because you make up the post wrath rapture.

The response has been pretty typical for those who engage with Pretribs in end-times discussion. Their main tactic is avoidance and ad hominem.

Nah. How many scriptures do I have to post? THERE ARE MORE BUT YOU CAN'T UNDERSTAND THESE.

Two folds into one

John 10
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Shows Israel was chosen as 1st harvest but they served other Baalpeor. The Gentiles become the 1st harvest as the fig tree has two harvests.

Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

Show Christ has come because the elders have their crowns.

Revelation 4
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

We can escape all these things that come to pass and stand before the Son of man

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

One coming like the days of Noah and one coming like the days of Lot. The irony is that you think there is only one coming and it is after wrath. Where the Word shows we are not appointed to wrath.

I could keep posting scriptures but you can't even understand these. There are five wise virgins and five foolish virgins. The wise are watching and ready.

There is a severe lack of actually unravelling the sacred text or addressing the counterarguments. Most Pretrib arguments are stretched and extra-biblical. They depend a lot on forced types and absurd types. Little do they realize, you need to have an anti-type for you to have a type and you need to have substance in order for you to have a shadow. This they lack. They have now resorted to questionable extra biblical charts in order to resuscitate their dying doctrine.

The 24 Elders

The 24 elders have crowns. JESUS HAS COME.

Pretrib argues that the absence of any mention of "the Church" between Revelation 4 - 19 proves they is no Church on earth. This is one of their main arguments. Yet they are adamant that the 24 Elders represent the whole Church in heaven. This is one of their fundamental beliefs.

Again, total baloney. The absence of the Church not being mentioned is not proof. However, it should make you think.......where is the Church. You can find them in heaven in Rev 5

There is not a post you can find of mine that says that the 24 elders are the complete Church. The 24 elders with crowns are proof that Jesus has returned.

Revelation 3
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Here is the Church in heaven.

Revelation 5
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

But how can they so easily spiritualize the 24 Elders and insist on them being “the Church” but rubbish the idea that the Church is called “saints,” “them which are saved,” the “redeemed,” the “brethren,” the “chosen (or elect), and faithful,” “servants,” those “in / with white robes,” “kings and priests,” “souls,” “fellowservants,” “woman,” “the temple,” “the dead which die in the Lord,” “them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark,” “he/him that overcometh,” “he that watcheth, and keepeth their garments,” “my people,” “his people,” “much people,” “a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation,” “the bride,” “the Lamb's wife,” “they that do/keep God’s commandments,” “the armies which were in heaven” and “they which are written in the Lamb's book of life”?

Talk about twisting Scripture! This is totally ridiculous!

LOL, Spiritualize. Not a chance. The 24 are exactly what the Word says they are..............24 elders with crowns. This shows Jesus has returned. They are not the complete Church............they are 24 elders.

And yet you want to spiritualize the 144,000 and claim they are the Church. Your teachers have not figured out that the 144,000 are redeemed from the earth before the great tribulation.

The 144,000 are redeemed from the earth and are in heaven before the throne.

Rev 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Pitiful arguments you are presenting.