The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[WPM]

You don't have timeline charts and you don't include any of the end times time frames in your posts.



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LOL. Who cares? That is all you have - that, and continual avoidance and fighting the sacred text. That is why you need your charts. The content of your questionable charts contradict God's Book. All I am bringing to the table is the Word of God. That is normally enough for genuine Christians.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So why would the Thessalonians have been concerned that the day of the Lord had already begun ?

I answered this question in post #567 and you didn't respond to what I said there. You only responded to it by inexplicably asking if I and WPM are preterists. Can you tell me what you think about what I said in that post? I assume you didn't just ask this question for no reason, so I'd like to know what you thought about my response, if you don't mind.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The temple is not yet built. I agree on that point.

And is unlikely to be built until after the Gog/Magog event - because of the Muslim presence on the temple mount..

That the Antichrist goes into the temple (once built), sits, claiming to have God-hood - will be a sudden without warning act by the person. Up to that point, the Antichrist will have been thought to be the messiah by the Jews.

I responded to this post in post #569 and you didn't respond. I believe you need to explain yourself here as to why you refer to this in relation to the sudden and unexpected day of the Lord that is coming when Paul very clearly referred to "sudden destruction" coming unexpectedly on the day of the Lord. You are not describing "sudden destruction" here at all and are clearly taking Paul completely out of context from what he said in 1 Thess 5:2-3. Why are you doing that? Please explain that.

 

[Douggg]

LOL. Who cares? That is all you have - that, and continual avoidance and fighting the sacred text. That is why you need your charts. The content of your questionable charts contradict God's Book. All I am bringing to the table is the Word of God. That is normally enough for genuine Christians.

All of these passages of end times time frames are the Word of God. You are avoiding that part of the sacred text regarding the end times

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Read what I have previously presented and which Pretribbers have repeatedly ignored.

Read Scripture. Read history. Check out AD70.

This has already been long-fulfilled. Please address the biblical evidence.

Jesus, first of all, speaks about the destruction of the temple in AD70, as a result of Israel's unbelief. He then talks about a future climactic day in the future when every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Here were two key events that would happen in the then future. The disciples were obviously inquisitive as to when these would happen. They then asked two questions in Matthew 24 in response to our Lord’s words. Matthew 24:3 records:

1. “Tell us, when shall these things be?”
2. “and what shall be the sign of thy coming (parousia), and of the end (sunteleías, meaning completion, or consummation) of the world (age)?”

This proves that the disciples were enquiring about the realization of these two aforementioned days. They wanted to know about their fulfillment. Sadly, Preterists and Premillennialists each ignore the other's events relating to the past and the future. Both are therefore missing the context and meaning. The context proves that Israel will be forced to cry "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord" at Christ's future "parousia," at "the end of the age.”

Christ addressed both questions and both eras in chapter 24. However, because of the intermingling of His response, many Bible students suffer great confusion in identifying what aspect of the teaching relates to AD 70 and what relates to the second coming.
In His response to the first question in Matthew 24:15-22, He spoke of the end of the 40 year probationary period (AD 70), saying, “When ye (the disciples) therefore shall see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, whoso readeth, let him understand: Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation [Gr. thlipsis], such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.”

Mark 13:14-20 says, “when ye (the disciples) shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. For in those days shall be tribulation (thlipsis), such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.”

This can only refer to the wrath of God being poured out on Jerusalem that destroyed the existing socio-political/cultural/religious system of Judaism, which was an offence to God. This people were decimated. Their religious system was effectively brought to nought. Nothing before AD 70, or after it, could compare in regard to the extent of its demise. Luke 21:20-24 reinforces that we are looking at AD 70.

Luke’s parallel passage, in Luke 21:20-24, records, “when ye (the disciples) shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! For there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”

Please note the close correlation between these 3 accounts of the same event - AD70. A comparison of these three parallel narratives will see the correspondence in teaching. Pay especial notice of what is highlighted in brown. This proves that this is an historic event that pertains to the judgment of Jerusalem as a punishment for their rejection of Christ and has been long fulfilled.

Plainly: “the abomination of desolation … standing where it ought not” or standing “in the holy place” relates to the Roman soldiers that would destroy the city of Jerusalem. Luke adds meat to the bones, saying: “when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.” Here is the warning sign to run! There is also the limitation of that judgment so that the Gospel would spread to the nations. The Gospel spread as Jewish families were spread throughout the world.

The Lord tells us that unless this judgment upon Jerusalem was shortened “there should no flesh be saved” (Matthew 24:22). In essence, what He was saying was, there would have been no possibility of Jewish Christians surviving it and consequently no hope of a lost Gentile world receiving this great Gospel if God’s wrath would not have been limited to a short time-period in relative terms. If the wrath of God would have continued to be poured out on wicked man as it was on Jerusalem then mankind would have been finished. But it was restricted to Christ-rejecting Jerusalem.

How can futurists seriously relate these parallel accounts of the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, which resulted in the unbelieving Jews being dispersed to “all nations,” to a supposed seven-year end-time persecution of the Church of Jesus Christ? Remember, it was this awful approaching judgment upon the Jews that caused Christ to weep over Jerusalem, crying, “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.”

Don't expect to ever get a response to this from pretribs or premils. Any time we show how scripture all perfectly harmonizes together like this, we just hear crickets in response. Pretribs apparently prefer incoherent babbling over the coherent exegesis of scripture.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

All of these passages of end times time frames are the Word of God. You are avoiding that part of the sacred text regarding the end times

You are the last person who should criticize others for supposedly avoiding things. There is a lot that you are avoiding in this thread. I replied for the second time to a couple of your posts to ask you to respond to what I said in response to those.

Which time frame do you think Luke 21:34-36 represents of the ones you listed? And can you explain why Luke 21:35 refers to "that day" instead of "those days" if that passage is supposedly referring to a period of time rather than an actual 24 hour day during which Jesus will return and send down His wrath upon "all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth"?

 

[Douggg]

Please try again and tell me your exact understanding is of the unexpected and "sudden destruction" that Paul wrote about. What will make it unexpected and sudden in your view?

Your question from your post 669.

My response:

What makes the beginning of the day of the Lord sudden and unexpected is that the world will be saying "peace and safety" thinking it has entered the messianic age.

When, about three years into the (false) messianic age, the Antichrist without warning goes into the temple, sits, claiming to have achieved God-hood.

Which will then be shortly thrust the world into the great tribulation, during which mass destruction will take place.

 

[Douggg]

When talking about what will happen on the day Christ returns, as we have been doing, what point is there to referencing those time frames?

Because the point is that those time frames of events are inseparable from the day that Jesus returns.

 

[Douggg]

And can you explain why Luke 21:35 refers to "that day" instead of "those days" if that passage is supposedly referring to a period of time rather than an actual 24 hour day during which Jesus will return and send down His wrath upon "all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth"?

The day of the Lord is not a 24 hour period. It will last for eternity. And is comprised of segments.

The segments (in order) are, as shown on my chart below...

transgression of desolation committed
the abomination of desolation setup
the great tribulation
Jesus's second coming
the millennium
the GWT (Great White Throne) judgment
eternity

 

[WPM]

All of these passages of end times time frames are the Word of God. You are avoiding that part of the sacred text regarding the end times


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You cannot discuss Scripture. Your doctrine cannot abide biblical scrutiny. When brought into the light it falls like a deck of cards. You have to hide behind your flawed charts every time you are cornered. That is all you have.

 

[Douggg]

Which time frame do you think Luke 21:34-36 represents of the ones you listed? And can you explain why Luke 21:35 refers to "that day" instead of "those days" if that passage is supposedly referring to a period of time rather than an actual 24 hour day during which Jesus will return and send down His wrath upon "all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth"?

The time frame is 1335 days of the great tribulation.

 

[WPM]

The time frame is 1335 days of the great tribulation.

More avoidance. Address all the detailed rebuttals above that refute your beliefs. You have nothing of biblical substance to bring to the table.

Show us any Scripture that teaches a rapture of the Church, followed by a tribulation period of any length, followed by a third coming of the Lord?

 

[Douggg]

You cannot discuss Scripture. Your doctrine cannot abide biblical scrutiny. When brought into the light it falls like a deck of cards. You have to hide behind your flawed charts every time you are cornered. That is all you have.

It is not me who is avoiding discussing the Word of God end times time frames, but you. You have no charts of your own to demonstrate that you understand how all the events fit together in concert with the time frames given in the Word of God for those events.

 

[Douggg]

More avoidance. Address all the detailed rebuttals above that refute your beliefs. You have nothing of biblical substance to bring to the table.

Show us any Scripture that teaches a rapture of the Church, followed by a tribulation period of any length, followed by a third coming of the Lord?

You are playing word games. Jesus's second coming is shown on my chart, as is the great tribulation. It is all based on scriptures, that contain the timeframes in the Word of God. Daniel 12:11-12.

 

[WPM]

It is not me who is avoiding discussing the Word of God end times time frames, but you. You have no charts of your own to demonstrate that you understand how all the events fit together in concert with the time frames given in the Word of God for those events.

LOL. Yea right! The Bible demands we all produce silly end-time charts to prove an argument. Google it and you will see plenty that outline the truth and many that teach Amil. I am not interested!

You are playing word games. Jesus's second coming is shown on my chart, as is the great tribulation. It is all based on scriptures, that contain the timeframes in the Word of God. Daniel 12:11-12.





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I do not read your charts. Quote the Scripture that teaches this. If you were honest, you would admit you have nothing.

 

[Douggg]

I do not read your charts. Quote the Scripture that teaches this. If you were honest, you would admit you have nothing.

If you don't read my charts, then how can you say that they are in error ?

 

[WPM]

If you don't read my charts, then how can you say that they are in error ?

I used to. At the start, a few years ago, I did. I realized your charts were slanted, repetitive and unbiblical. I have ignored them for a long time. I know many others do. They see it as a smokescreen you hide behind when you are cornered and have no Scripture.

 

[The Light]

Where is the word "Church" mentioned in Revelation 4? Nowhere!

The 24 elders have crowns. Jesus has come. Simple enough.

Why is it that you always ask questions that you cannot answer with your beliefs.

Where is the Church mentioned regarding the 144,000. YOU CANNOT ANSWER because the Church is not mentioned. And you cannot prove it is the Church because the 144,000 are in heaven before the great tribulation, but you don't understand that either.

There is only one fold today. There only ever will be one fold.

Mmmm. As always the scripture does agree with what you are saying.

John 10
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

How can there be other sheep............NOT OF THIS FOLD. Two folds are brought together into one fold.

Jesus said, speaking to His Jewish converts, in John 10:14-16, “I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.”

Christ was simply informing these Jewish believers that grace was going to be widened outside of Israel. The Gentiles were about to be brought into the same unitary fold of grace as the Jewish believers. The mentioning of two groupings within the body didn't indicate "two folds" any more than references to male and female, rich and poor, free and bond, Jew and Gentile represented multiple folds amongst the people of God. Rather it simply shows the variety of members within the one godly fold.

Tell you teachers on Wednesday night that they have taught you wrong.

God's people are described as a singular nation called out from amongst the nations (plural). The objective unindoctrinated Bible student will see that the people of God have been united as one into a trans-national spiritual nation. Race doesn't matter anymore under the new covenant. It is all about grace. Your theology produces ethnic apartheid.

In His earthly ministry, and knowing what was coming, Christ asked the religious Jewish leaders, “Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, the kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder” (Matthew 21 42-44).

The kingdom has been taken from Israel as a nation and given to another nation. Who is that nation? It is the largely Gentile New Testament Church comprised of all believers (both Jew and Gentile).

The Church without any division is a distinct unitary nation. It is a holy nation. Natural ethnicity means nothing within it. Christians have their spiritual citizenship in heaven. There are no such thing as Christian nations today in the NT. That is your own invention. The problem with your theory is that you have a misconception of what the word "Christian" actually means. What you define as a "Christian" nation is far from it. Nations like the United States of America and United Kingdom possess governments, people and laws that are hostile to the truth of God.

1 Peter 2:9-10, “ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light. Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.”

Romans 10
1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

Romans 11
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Romans 11
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

· A chosen generation
· A royal priesthood
· An holy nation
· A peculiar people
· Who have been called out of darkness into his marvelous light.

The word rendered generation in the King James Version here is the Greek word genos meaning kin (abstract or concrete, literal or figurative, individual or collective). It comes up 21 times in the NT and this is the only occasion it is interpreted generation. It simply means kindred, kind, stock or offspring.

I don't feel like looking this up to see if you changed the Greek to make it appear that you are correct..........to fool believers

 

[The Light]

If you don't read my charts, then how can you say that they are in error ?

You are kidding aren't you Douggg. It's easy for him.

It's the same way you can post dozens of verses that prove him wrong, and his response is you are avoiding answering him.

This tactic comes straight from their teachers in an attempt to keep their fallen doctrine from being exposed.

You can go to any forum and the tactic is the same because their beliefs do not agree with the scripture.

 

[WPM]

The 24 elders have crowns. Jesus has come. Simple enough.

What? 24 elders are not billions of Christians. Where are you getting that from? It seems like you stretching that to support your teaching. There is no mention of "the Church."

Why is it that you always ask questions that you cannot answer with your beliefs.

Let me remind you: it is your school of thought that argues that the absence of any mention of "the Church" between Revelation 4 - 19 proves they is no Church on earth. That is what Pretribs have been wrongly taught. You are therefore hung by your own noose. I am using nonsensical Pretrib thinking to hang nonsensical Pretrib thinking.

• You cannot explain to us how 24 Elders represent the whole Church. After all, there are millions of believers.
• You cannot show us anywhere in Scripture where the Church is represented with this symbol of 24 Elders.
• Where does it show 24 Elders being caught up into heaven via a Pretrib rapture?

The symbolism here, like much in Revelation, finds its origin in Old Testament Scripture.

The 24 elders bear a striking similarity to the number, and attire, of the priests that Israel had under the old covenant. They are clothed in white raiment and had on their heads, crowns of gold.

Between 1 Chronicles 24:1-19 there are 24 priests listed, being described as “the divisions of the sons of Aaron.” This is an Israeli depiction.

Where is the Church mentioned regarding the 144,000. YOU CANNOT ANSWER because the Church is not mentioned. And you cannot prove it is the Church because the 144,000 are in heaven before the great tribulation, but you don't understand that either..

24 Elders = the Church but 144,000 "redeemed from among men" who belong to the Lamb of God (Jesus Christ) cannot. Hmmmm! Really?

Rev 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
Rev 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
Rev 14:5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

We need to first establish the location that we are looking at tonight.

Where is this?

What is mount Sion today?

The only Mount Sion were dead believers go and worship the Lamb is heavenly Mount Zion. This is not an earthly scene, but heavenly!

Mmmm. As always the scripture does agree with what you are saying.

John 10
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

How can there be other sheep............NOT OF THIS FOLD. Two folds are brought together into one fold.


Tell you teachers on Wednesday night that they have taught you wrong.


Romans 10
1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

Romans 11
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Romans 11
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


I don't feel like looking this up to see if you changed the Greek to make it appear that you are correct..........to fool believers

Talk about avoidance. You totally ignored my thesis. That is because Scripture demolishes your doctrine. Checkmate. You have no response. You have no rebuttal. Game over!