The Third Heaven - Taken into the Future

[marks]

As are many things in scripture, the physical is often an analogy of the spiritual. When we read that God has hands, or that He is like a mother hen spreading her wings, we understand what is meant.

The three heavens, is I believe, referring to the three spiritual states that man can inhabit on this earth. The early church taught this and it was sometimes called the Via Triplex in the west - the three ways.

The first way - the way of Purification, meant the time in the believers life where he is led into a time of severe testing, after the initial heavenly place of being converted out of the world, whereby the presence of God is lost (see Job) and the man sees destruction to the things that he has previously held in esteem. These things have been keeping him from complete submission to God so they have to go.

Of course, this only is found where a man longs for deep fellowship with God despite his idols and hungers and thirsts for this.

Then comes the second heaven whereby the man is Illuminated and understands what he has been through and thanks God for it and the release from deliberate sin which he has been blessed with. He sees the scriptures in a new way and the reason for trials in order to grow spiritually. However, he still seeks to be freed from the 'sin that entangles' him.

The third heaven is the place of righteousness, and we can only speak of it with reverence and respect as it is holy ground and those that oppose it are heaping coals on their heads.

I've heard various patterns for how God work described before. I've never seen these patterns in my own life, though I have seen God do a variety of works in me, and in some unusual and sometimes spectacular ways. But it never seems to fit the patterns which other people say God uses. As I look back over my life I seem to see what appears as His "Grand Scheme" for me, but I'm still focusing in on it naturally!

But I see nothing so cut and dried as all that. I think the reality can be a lot more messy, steps forwards and backward, though always forward from God's perspective for His children.

As for various stages like you are describing, I think we are more in a flow of maturing in a variety of ways.

I'm all about using Scripture to interpret Scripture, and so that's where I see what I wrote in the OP. If there is anything Biblical to define this for us, that is it, I think.

Much love!

 

[marks]

It is just as speculative (Imo)to assume it was God who forbid the man he was not allowed to speak of those things which he heard spoken in the third heaven. Does it matter? No. Expect for me it at least gives me a pause from assuming it was God who forbid the man of speaking of those things which he heard.

It is true that Paul did not identify the lawgiver.

After reading your OP a question remains…What is beyond the second veil where Christ entered?

What indeed??



Much love!

 

[Hepzibah]

But I see nothing so cut and dried as all that. I think the reality can be a lot more messy, steps forwards and backward, though always forward from God's perspective for His children.

Yes this is what the early church taught. I had forgotten about that. The steps would sometimes blend in to each other and sometimes a reversal for some time. Thanks for that, it explains some things for me to. But there is mainly a progression according to how submitted we are to Christ.

I see the pattern in my life though with various times of confusion. We can see the pattern in the disciples however to keep us on the straight and narrow path, by seeing the various points where things changed for them.

For example the breathing on of the Spirit when Jesus returned, and the way they changed regarding being in union together, in the upper room whereas before thy were often disagreeing.

 

[Johann]

It is true that Paul did not identify the lawgiver.

What indeed??



Much love!

I don't claim to know it all--

The Old Testament Background:
In the Tabernacle and later the Temple, the structure was divided into distinct areas:

The Outer Court: Accessible to all Israelites, this area included the altar of burnt offering and the laver for ceremonial washing.
The Holy Place: Entered only by priests, this area contained the lampstand, the table of showbread, and the altar of incense.
The Most Holy Place (Holy of Holies): Separated from the Holy Place by the second veil, this innermost chamber housed the Ark of the Covenant and was entered only once a year by the high priest on the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur).
The Second Veil:
The second veil (Hebrew: פָּרֹכֶת, parokhet) was the curtain that separated the Holy Place from the Most Holy Place. Beyond this veil lay the Ark of the Covenant, symbolizing God's presence among His people.

New Testament Fulfillment:
In the New Testament, particularly in the book of Hebrews, the imagery of the Tabernacle is applied to Christ’s ministry.

Hebrews 9:3-5:
Scripture: "And behind the second veil, the part of the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of All, which had the golden censer and the ark of the covenant overlaid on all sides with gold, in which were the golden pot that had the manna, Aaron’s rod that budded, and the tablets of the covenant; and above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat. Of these things we cannot now speak in detail."
Explanation: This passage describes the contents and significance of the Most Holy Place, emphasizing its sanctity and the direct presence of God.
Hebrews 9:11-12:
Scripture: "But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption."
Explanation: Christ, as the ultimate High Priest, entered the true Most Holy Place (heaven itself) once for all by His own sacrificial blood, obtaining eternal redemption for humanity.
Hebrews 10:19-20:
Scripture: "Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh."
Explanation: The veil is metaphorically equated to Christ's flesh. His sacrificial death tore the veil, granting believers direct access to God’s presence.
Theological Implications:
Direct Access to God:

Christ’s sacrifice and His entry beyond the second veil symbolize believers’ newfound access to God. No longer restricted by the physical veil, believers can approach God with confidence through Christ (Hebrews 4:16).
Heavenly Sanctuary:

Beyond the second veil is the heavenly reality of God’s presence. Christ’s ascension and entry into this heavenly sanctuary fulfill the typology of the earthly Most Holy Place (Hebrews 8:1-2).
Ultimate High Priest:

Jesus’ role as the High Priest is unique. Unlike the earthly high priests who entered annually with animal blood, Christ entered once for all with His own blood, securing eternal redemption (Hebrews 7:27).
New Covenant:

The tearing of the veil at Christ’s crucifixion (Matthew 27:51) symbolizes the end of the Old Covenant and the establishment of the New Covenant. Believers now have direct access to God through Christ’s sacrifice.


Beyond the second veil, Christ entered into the true heavenly sanctuary, the very presence of God, fulfilling the typology of the Most Holy Place in the earthly Tabernacle and Temple. This entry signifies the culmination of His high priestly work, providing believers with direct access to God through His once-for-all sacrifice. The theological richness of this imagery underscores the profound transformation from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant, centered on the person and work of Jesus Christ.

This is all I know.

 

[Johann]

It is true that Paul did not identify the lawgiver.

Yes/no?

While Paul does not always explicitly state "God is the lawgiver" in every mention of the law, his writings clearly convey this understanding through context, theological implications, and references to Jewish scripture. The attributes, purpose, and fulfillment of the law in Christ consistently point to God as the source. Thus, it is accurate to say that Paul's writings implicitly and contextually identify God as the lawgiver.

 

[marks]

Yes/no?

While Paul does not always explicitly state "God is the lawgiver" in every mention of the law, his writings clearly convey this understanding through context, theological implications, and references to Jewish scripture. The attributes, purpose, and fulfillment of the law in Christ consistently point to God as the source. Thus, it is accurate to say that Paul's writings implicitly and contextually identify God as the lawgiver.

I think it's safe to say that when Paul said this man heard things unlawful to be uttered, that this was by God's command. Yes, implicit, I think that's the right idea!

Much love! And a good afternoon to you brother!

 

[Johann]

I think it's safe to say that when Paul said this man heard things unlawful to be uttered, that this was by God's command. Yes, implicit, I think that's the right idea!

Much love! And a good afternoon to you brother!

Still "hanging around" brother--will catch up with you guys since this race is not a 100 meter sprint!

 

[Hepzibah]

I think it's safe to say that when Paul said this man heard things unlawful to be uttered

I think he was saying that there were things concerning God's character that are so wonderful that they cannot be shared with the unenlightened rather than that they were 'unlawful'. Jesus said that there were things that He couldn't share because people were unable to bear them.

 

[Johann]

I think he was saying that there were things concerning God's character that are so wonderful that they cannot be shared with the unenlightened rather than that they were 'unlawful'. Jesus said that there were things that He couldn't share because people were unable to bear them.

Nowhere in Paul's writings will you find what he saw and divulge the unutterable things in Scripture brother--

2 Corinthians 12:1-7 (ESV):
Scripture:

"I must go on boasting. Though there is nothing to be gained by it, I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord.
I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows.
And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows—
and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter.
On behalf of this man I will boast, but on my own behalf I will not boast, except of my weaknesses—
though if I should wish to boast, I would not be a fool, for I would be speaking the truth; but I refrain from it, so that no one may think more of me than he sees in me or hears from me.
So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited."

Analysis:
1. Visions and Revelations:
Context: Paul begins by acknowledging that boasting is of no value but proceeds to describe his experience to counteract criticisms and claims by false apostles.

Third Heaven and Paradise: Paul speaks of being caught up to the "third heaven" and "paradise," using Jewish apocalyptic language. The third heaven is often understood as the highest heaven or the dwelling place of God.

2. Unutterable Things:
Inexpressible Words: Paul mentions hearing "things that cannot be told, which man may not utter." This indicates that the content of what he experienced is beyond human expression or forbidden to share.
Purpose: The secrecy underscores the sacred and transcendent nature of the vision, distinguishing divine revelation from human experiences.

3. Humility and Thorn in the Flesh:
Humility: Paul refrains from boasting about the visions to avoid being seen as prideful. He emphasizes his weaknesses instead.
Thorn in the Flesh: Paul describes a "thorn in the flesh" given to him to prevent conceit due to the greatness of the revelations. This thorn is often interpreted as a physical ailment or spiritual challenge.
Theological Implications:

1. Nature of Divine Revelation:
Mystery and Transcendence: The vision's inexpressibility highlights the mystery and transcendence of divine revelation. Some aspects of God's revelation remain beyond human comprehension or articulation.
Apostolic Authority: Paul's restraint in sharing details demonstrates humility and reinforces his authority, not based on extraordinary experiences but on his faithfulness and suffering for Christ.

2. Human Limitations:
Human Speech: The limitations of human language to convey divine realities point to the gap between God's transcendent nature and human understanding.
Paul’s Experience: The passage illustrates that even an apostle like Paul had experiences that were personal and not fully disclosed, emphasizing the personal and unique aspects of divine encounters.

3. Paul’s Ministry:
Focus on Weakness: By focusing on his weaknesses and the thorn in his flesh, Paul aligns his ministry with the paradox of strength in weakness, central to his theology (2 Corinthians 12:9-10).
Reliance on God: The passage underscores the need for reliance on God's grace and power, rather than on personal spiritual experiences.

All else is mere speculation @Hepzibah

 

[Hepzibah]

All else is mere speculation @Hepzibah

Sister not brother thanks. Various ecf wrote on the subject, and described how a man's senses are overwhelmed by the entrance to paradise so that he barely knows what is happening. Here is Chrysostom:

2 Corinthians 12 Homilies of Chrysostom

biblehub.com

 

[Johann]

Sister not brother thanks. Various ecf wrote on the subject, and described how a man's senses are overwhelmed by the entrance to paradise so that he barely knows what is happening. Here is Chrysostom:

2 Corinthians 12 Homilies of Chrysostom

biblehub.com

My apologies--sister--I don't hold to the ECF and their teaching and writings. Call me old fashioned, if it is not in Scripture I reject it.

 

[Hepzibah]

They say the same as Paul though without sharing exactly what they discovered which is unutterable. The experience is the same for all who enter into His rest.

 

[Johann]

They say the same as Paul though without sharing exactly what they discovered which is unutterable. The experience is the same for all who enter into His rest.

You guys and gals seem to have extraordinary experiences and walking in the Spirit, boosts etc. For me it stands written--The just shall live by faith and that is good enough for me.

 

[Hepzibah]

You guys and gals seem to have extraordinary experiences and walking in the Spirit, boosts etc. For me it stands written--The just shall live by faith and that is good enough for me.

It is very rare today that any reach Theosis. It is the only extraordinary experience that I consider valid for the believer.

 

[Johann]

It is very rare today that any reach Theosis. It is the only extraordinary experience that I consider valid for the believer.

Sorry @Hepzibah-sister-after reading the Early Church Fathers (ECF) and their writings on "deification," I would rather put the concept of Theosis to rest. The world has gone mad seeking experiences, signs, miracles, and wonders, while sound biblical teaching has become a rare commodity. As Jesus warned, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah" (Matthew 16:4). Paul also emphasized the importance of sound doctrine, stating, "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables" (2 Timothy 4:3-4).

Shalom
J.

 

[Hepzibah]

I am grateful @Johann brother, for the Bible teachers and exergesis I learned in my Reformed days. It has given me a very good grounding even though I think they were wrong in their interpretation of certain matters in TULIP. I was trained in how to go deeply into the scriptures although they missed the forest for the trees.

However, I was having a relationship with a book, God was not speaking directly to me, and with the extreme degrees of suffering in my life - things that people normally dread, and are considered some of the worst things that one can go through - even worse alone, my faith was under attack so much that I had to find an answer and a more authentic experience of the Christian life, like the one I found in the NT.

It led me onto the pathway I am now on, and being able to experience the promises that seemed hidden from me previously. I have never had anything to do with charismania btw.

Brother I just hope that God will give you the hunger and thirst to seek more.

 

[Johann]

I am grateful @Johann brother, for the Bible teachers and exergesis I learned in my Reformed days. It has given me a very good grounding even though I think they were wrong in their interpretation of certain matters in TULIP. I was trained in how to go deeply into the scriptures although they missed the forest for the trees.

However, I was having a relationship with a book, God was not speaking directly to me, and with the extreme degrees of suffering in my life - things that people normally dread, and are considered some of the worst things that one can go through - even worse alone, my faith was under attack so much that I had to find an answer and a more authentic experience of the Christian life, like the one I found in the NT.

It led me onto the pathway I am now on, and being able to experience the promises that seemed hidden from me previously. I have never had anything to do with charismania btw.

Brother I just hope that God will give you the hunger and thirst to seek more.

Are you saying I have a relationship with my Bible and that I need to hear-audibly-the Kol/voice of God speaking to me? As for sufferings and the extremities of that we are ALL going through it--anyway-I have told @marks I'll stay off this thread.

Shalom to you and family
J.

 

[marks]

I think he was saying that there were things concerning God's character that are so wonderful that they cannot be shared with the unenlightened rather than that they were 'unlawful'. Jesus said that there were things that He couldn't share because people were unable to bear them.

Pastor Chuck Smith shared that view, he interpeted the passage, "so wonderful it would be a crime to try to describe them." Here again I'm going to stick right up to the wording, not lawful, or, (LITV) not permitted.

Yes this is what the early church taught. I had forgotten about that. The steps would sometimes blend in to each other and sometimes a reversal for some time. Thanks for that, it explains some things for me to. But there is mainly a progression according to how submitted we are to Christ.

For me this translates into a progression in life maturing into Christ with life looking like all sorts of things. We have the basics told to us in Scripture, actually, more than that, I find detailed instructions and descriptions over how we are to overcome the corruption of our flesh - the force of evil inside us - by a faith explained, and testified to.

I think "how submitted we are" is at the heart of the matter. I think God always works all things for our good, but we delay to receive the growth because we hold on to what we have, or think we still are.

I see the pattern in my life though with various times of confusion. We can see the pattern in the disciples however to keep us on the straight and narrow path, by seeing the various points where things changed for them.

Everytime I start to write about patterns in my life, I end up deleting it again because it falls too far short. God calls me to higher, I choose to follow or not. If not, circumstances become contrary, until I submit, and allow myself to be called higher. By higher I mean walking in greater faith.

For example the breathing on of the Spirit when Jesus returned, and the way they changed regarding being in union together, in the upper room whereas before thy were often disagreeing.

Jesus gave these men their Apostleship, breathing on them to receive the Holy Spirit, commissioning them with the same authority He had, to forgive or retain sins.

John 20:21-23 LITV
21) Then Jesus said to them again, Peace to you. As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.
22) And saying this, He breathed on them and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit.
23) Of whomever you may remit the sins, they are remitted to them. Of whomever you hold, they have been held.

I can only speculate what happened with them. Is this the moment they were regenerated? Was Pentecost the moment when they were baptized into the body of Christ? I think what happened here happened to these men only.

 

[marks]

Beyond the second veil, Christ entered into the true heavenly sanctuary, the very presence of God, fulfilling the typology of the Most Holy Place in the earthly Tabernacle and Temple. This entry signifies the culmination of His high priestly work, providing believers with direct access to God through His once-for-all sacrifice. The theological richness of this imagery underscores the profound transformation from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant, centered on the person and work of Jesus Christ.

I must decrease, and He must increase.

Much love!

 

[marks]

My apologies--sister--I don't hold to the ECF and their teaching and writings. Call me old fashioned, if it is not in Scripture I reject it.

I take them the same way I take any man's writings, his own thoughts. But the "ECF's", they aren't the church fathers, Jesus is the foundation, then the Apostles, then all the rest of the church. And the ECF writings are a "curated collection" meaning, we have no assurance that they were truly representative of the early church views. These represent such as were copied and maintained. I'm not saying they are, or are not, only, that I don't know.

What I've read of them show me they were as all over the map as people are today. But to be sure, I've only read a small portion.

Much love!