The absurdity of Pretrib logic

[rwb]

acts 2
20
‘The sun shall be turned into darkness
And the moon into blood,
Before the great and glorious day of the Lord comes.

2Thess 2
2 Now in regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to meet Him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to be quickly unsettled or alarmed either by a [so-called prophetic revelation of a] spirit or a message or a letter [alleged to be] from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has [already] come.

His coming and our Catching away

2Pet 3
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will vanish with a [mighty and thunderous] roar, and the [material] elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and the works that are on it will be burned up.

His coming, our caching away and the passing of this heaven and earth, like a thief (suddenly) in a twinkling of an eye.


2 Peter 3:18
but grow [spiritually mature] in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be glory (honor, majesty, splendor), both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

Amen

All of these passages point to the last and final Day of Lord when Christ comes the second time in wrath when the Day of His grace comes to an end.

 

[JLB]

All of these passages point to the last and final Day of Lord when Christ comes the second time in wrath when the Day of His grace comes to an end.

Yes.

His coming; The Day of the LORD, The Day of Christ.

 

[MA2444]

Once Christ comes the second time to gather His people to Himself, giving them immortality and incorruptibility, what would be the purpose for those left behind continuing to be alive on this earth?

That is a very good question and I think I have an answer too. Some that are "saved" Born Again" may need more time to learn how to love their neighbor properly, or they weren't found clean enough to be the Bride because she had stains on her dress? Like they wouldnt let go of one type of sin that they were fond of? Active in the church, spreads the gospel freely and brings people to follow Christ, but she just can't help cheating on her husband every once in awhile...That's not an accident. That's a choice. I obey God in allmost all things! And God has convicted her conscience many times but she still chooses to sin.

So maybe this woman who has stains on her dress needed a wake up call about her sinful lifestyle? There's many fence sitters who will be left behind for a wake up call tto obey the Lord. I tink many of those type people who are left behind, will become on fire for the Lord and pick up their cross with their whole heart during the Tribulation. These may even be some of who which make up the 144,000?

The church age will be over but the Gospel message will continue to be Preached. Workers are needed in the field for that. That will be their purpose going through the Trib.

Once Christ comes the second time to gather His people to Himself, giving them immortality and incorruptibility, what would be the purpose for those left behind continuing to be alive on this earth? Does Scripture tell us some of them will still also be changed and given immortality and incorruptibility with those who have been caught up to meet the Lord in the air? Why spare any of them since Scripture tells us those who are left behind with this earth shall NOT be saved?

Did I stop reading too soon? Lol. Ok, scripture does not say that. There will be people saved during the Tribulation and not all will take the mark of the beast. Many of those will be martyred and beheaded...but their soul will be saved upon death. Allow me a scripture:

Revelation 7:13-16
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.../KJV

This is how the NLT version states it:
14 And I said to him, “Sir, you are the one who knows.”

Then he said to me, “These are the ones who died in[a] the great tribulation.[b] They have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb and made them white.../NLT

So there are some who live through the Trib.

Why would God prolong for one thousand more years to bring the new heaven and new earth down from heaven as His glorious bride, since none will be made perfect until the COMPLETE number has been saved?

One reason is to fulfill the remaining prophecies which have not been fulfilled as yet. Like Israel getting it's complete borders as it's promised land. All the way to the Euphraters river (or where it used to be lol) and many other prophecies. Plus I tink He just wants to show us, that, it can work. This is how it was supposed to be, my Children...In essence, we'll be back in the garden of Eden again with respect to daily fellowship with the Lord! Walking and talking directly to Him!.
I wonder if Adam & Eve had not fallen...where would we be now? 1000 years is enough time for that!

We have no hope as a nation or as a human species without God being front and center in our lives. We would kill ourselves through ignorance and war. But we still have more to learn! Apparently, this is dangerous universe.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, wrong deduction. The sudden destruction will be during the great tribulation, that will shortly follow the saying "peace and safety".

the world at ease, marrying, giving in marriage > saying peace and safety > the day of the Lord begins > God's wrath is poured out in the great tribulation > Jesus returns

What suddenly begins the day of the Lord ?

Both Paul, in 1 Thess 5:2-3, and Peter, in 2 Peter 3:10-12, indicate that the "sudden destruction" by fire upon the entire earth occurs upon the unexpected arrival of the day of the Lord. It will arrive unexpectedly like a thief in the night and Christ's enemies will be destroyed suddenly before they can even react. That's why Paul said "they shall not escape" that "sudden destruction".

Paul and Peter don't indicate that the destruction occurs some period of time after the day of the Lord has begun. Your doctrine does not line up with 1 Thess 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 at all.

 

[JLB]

I want to say at the start, this is not an attack on individual Pretribbers. There are many solid Pretribbers out there. This is a challenge on the doctrine espoused by them.

Anyone that has engaged with Pretribbers on forums like this will know that they cannot furnish us with one single proof text to support their teaching. They cannot show you where in Scripture teaches a rapture of the Church, followed by seven-year tribulation, followed by a third coming of the Lord. That is because it does not exist. It is a man-made doctrine. They seem incapable of recognizing that there is only one final future coming of the Lord. That event will see Jesus coming literally, physically and visibly "with" and "for" His people. Multiple Scripture proves that He will rescue all His elect and then destroy all the wicked. This is shown to be the end!

Here are some of the revealing statements Pretribbers have made recently.














So, where is a Pretrib rapture in the Bible? Nowhere! They admit this, yet refuse to abandon their error. Amazing! They admit this, yet they want to change us and get us to believe this error. It is ridiculous!

The Bible evidence supports one final future climatic coming of Jesus

The Bible shows us that there is one future coming of the Lord which is all-consummating.

The Greek word parousia appears 24 times in the New Testament. It is rendered “coming” in 22 passages and “presence” in 2. The word can be interpreted coming, arrival or presence and simply expresses in the Greek what it implies in the English. The word parousia is mostly applied in Scripture to the second coming of the Lord although it is not solely restricted to that Advent. In II Thessalonians 2:9 the word is applied to the arrival of antichrist. The word is also used in other passages to describe the coming or arrival of a person (1 Corinthians 16:17 and 2 Corinthians 7:6).

Notwithstanding, the first time we encounter the word parousia in relation to the coming of the Lord is in Matthew 24. The word is found in the disciples’ response to the Lord’s statement outside the temple.

In His discourse in Matthew 23:37-24:2 the Lord warns, “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord (the second coming). Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? Verily I say unto you, there shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

The disciples then question the Lord on the detail, meaning and timing of this solemn prophecy and of the end of the world by way of two questions in Matthew 24:3, asking,

(1) “Tell us, when shall these things be?” and
(2) “what shall be the sign of thy coming [or parousia], and of the end [or sunteleías, or completion, or consummation] of the world?”

In this passage, "the end of the world" is plainly identified with the coming of the Lord.

The Lord employs the word parousia in reply to the disciples second question in Matthew 24:23-28, when He says, “if any man shall say unto you (before the one final future second coming of the Lord), Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son be. Wheresoever is the carcase, there will be gathered together the eagles.”

Christ immediately adds in Matthew 24:29-31, speaking of this one final future coming, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming [Gr. erchomai] in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and ‘they shall gather together’ [Gr. episunago] his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

Here is the gathering of God's people, the catching away, the rapture of the Church. This comes after the tribulation period.

Jesus then concludes Matthew 24:35-41: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.”

After telling us that “heaven and earth shall pass away,” Jesus immediately tells us: “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” What day and hour? The one and only final future climactic coming (or parousia) of our Lord. Please see the Greek word is used twice here in this passage. This final day that is approaching is coming unexpectedly. This fits in with the “thief in the night” scenario found elsewhere in Scripture. It would seem to confirm that the day that Christ returns is the day when the current corrupt natural order (both the creature and creation) is gloriously changed. The wicked and all corruption are destroyed when Jesus comes. The Lord here identifies the passing away of “heaven and earth” with “the coming of the Son of man.”

This day finds the wicked unprepared. They will face the same punishment as the “hypocrite” when He comes: “there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” They will all be caught in the destruction when they are left behind and the “heaven and earth ... pass away.”

The Lord uses the word parousia again in v 37 to equate the days preceding His coming to the days preceding Noah’s entry into the ark, saying, “as the days of Noe were, so shall also the parousia of the Son of man be.”

We note three particular characteristics of this day, which will be repeated at the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. (1) The wicked lived as if there was no judgement coming, verse 38 says, “they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage.” (2) The wicked were caught unexpected, verse 39 says, they “knew not until the flood came.” And finally, (3) the wicked were ALL destroyed, verse 39 says, “the flood came, and took them all away.”

The resurrection and rapture occur at His coming.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15




JLB

 

[MA2444]

This shows again your inability to discern what you are reading. I wasn't talking about you there, I was talking about Douggg. If you actually followed the discussion closely, you would have seen that. He doesn't exegete scripture at all, he just shows his ridiculous charts and thinks he has proven something by doing that.

Oh sorry about that bro. It's true too, the more I read of your posts the less closely I follow, so I did miss that lol. Once in awhile you can have what's appraoching a decent conversation but when you start talking it's pretty obvious if you are having a good not.

Apparently you missed some of my posts too though. I have exgeted scriptures to you in the galielean wedding thread. and wouldnt respond. I think you was having a bad day that day iirc, .

 

[rwb]

That is a very good question and I think I have an answer too. Some that are "saved" Born Again" may need more time to learn how to love their neighbor properly, or they weren't found clean enough to be the Bride because she had stains on her dress? Like they wouldnt let go of one type of sin that they were fond of? Active in the church, spreads the gospel freely and brings people to follow Christ, but she just can't help cheating on her husband every once in awhile...That's not an accident. That's a choice. I obey God in allmost all things! And God has convicted her conscience many times but she still chooses to sin.

So maybe this woman who has stains on her dress needed a wake up call about her sinful lifestyle? There's many fence sitters who will be left behind for a wake up call tto obey the Lord. I tink many of those type people who are left behind, will become on fire for the Lord and pick up their cross with their whole heart during the Tribulation. These may even be some of who which make up the 144,000?

The church age will be over but the Gospel message will continue to be Preached. Workers are needed in the field for that. That will be their purpose going through the Trib.

Even if more time would be given to some who might repent and turn to Christ for salvation, the Day of God's grace shall come to an end when His saints are caught up to meet the Lord in the air at His second coming. Today (this age) is the time for which man MUST be saved. Once Christ comes again in wrath and glory it will be too late!

2 Corinthians 6:2 (KJV) (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

Luke 13:25 (KJV) When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Oh sorry about that bro. It's true too, the more I read of your posts the less closely I follow, so I did miss that lol.

Maybe you should not bother responding and making yourself look bad if you aren't paying attention. Just a thought lol

Once in awhile you can have what's appraoching a decent conversation but when you start talking it's pretty obvious if you are having a good not.
Apparently you missed some of my posts too though. I have exgeted scriptures to you in the galielean wedding thread. and wouldnt respond. I think you was having a bad day that day iirc, .

I can't respond to literally every single post directed at me. Do you have any idea of how many posts I respond to and how much time I take to do that? If I miss one or don't have the time to respond to one doesn't mean I'm ignoring you. Okay, bro? It wasn't because I was having a bad day. Maybe a busy day, but not a bad day. Just because I don't put up with childish nonsense means I'm having a bad day when I call it out.

 

[MA2444]

Maybe you should not bother responding and making yourself look bad if you aren't paying attention. Just a thought lol


I can't respond to literally every single post directed at me. Do you have any idea of how many posts I respond to and how much time I take to do that? If I miss one or don't have the time to respond to one doesn't mean I'm ignoring you. Okay, bro? It wasn't because I was having a bad day. Maybe a busy day, but not a bad day. Just because I don't put up with childish nonsense means I'm having a bad day when I call it out.

Touchy aint you? What happened? Your wife beat you up again? Lol.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Touchy aint you? What happened? Your wife beat you up again? Lol.

How is it that you think you are God and know what I'm feeling? I'm laughing at you and your childishness, bro. I'm not upset at all. Just wish you would grow up but you don't seem to have any interest in that.

 

[WPM]

The sudden destruction begins when the day of the Lord begins.

I presented to you this basic sequence of events. but not in chart form, but a simple single line.

the world at ease, marrying, giving in marriage > saying peace and safety > the day of the Lord begins > God's wrath is poured out in the great tribulation > Jesus returns

Then I asked you this question. Which you have not been able to answer.

What suddenly begins the day of the Lord ?

So I will answer it.

What suddenly begins the day of the Lord is when the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claiming to have achieved God-hood, the 2Thessalonians2:4 act. It will be totally unexpected by them who up to that time will have thought he was the messiah.

And what shortly follows is God's wrath poured out in the great tribulation.

Sudden destruction is just that. It is literal. Just like Noah and Lot's day. I know this cuts across what you have been taught and all your charts, but so be it. None escape. That is what consistent Scripture teaches. That is what happened in these ancient days.

You are fighting with Scripture not Posttribers.

 

[WPM]

Like you said, if I posted the scriptures for you...there is nothing to refute! I know you hold this position so why waste the time typing when is you will say s Refute refute it's wrong.

Proverbs 18:13
13 He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him..../KJV

This talking down to pretribbers seems obsessive with you. How many threads have you started about the illogic of pretrib, how dumb pretribbers are and so forth...

And I've heard the rumour that you are a Pastor. I dunno if it's true. But if so, then what is the point you are trying to make to the people here? Dont be a pretribber? Dont watch for Jesus? That seems like the tone of your posts & threads. But why would you do that?

Tell me why I shouldnt be watching for my Lord, Jesus? Or tell me what is your point really supposed to be?

No! I am not talking down to Pretribbers or is it my intent to offend. I am challenging the theory that "Pretrib is scriptural." It is simply not in the Bible. Your ongoing avoidance is only serving to reinforce my thesis. So, i am indebted to you (and your colleagues) for that.

There is nothing to refute because you bring nothing evidential to the table. All Pretrib has is extra-biblical theories and forced types.

It is time to admit your doctrine is unscriptural.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That is a very good question and I think I have an answer too. Some that are "saved" Born Again" may need more time to learn how to love their neighbor properly, or they weren't found clean enough to be the Bride because she had stains on her dress? Like they wouldnt let go of one type of sin that they were fond of? Active in the church, spreads the gospel freely and brings people to follow Christ, but she just can't help cheating on her husband every once in awhile...That's not an accident. That's a choice. I obey God in allmost all things! And God has convicted her conscience many times but she still chooses to sin.

Where is this described in scripture? Is your doctrine based on scripture or speculation?

So maybe this woman who has stains on her dress needed a wake up call about her sinful lifestyle? There's many fence sitters who will be left behind for a wake up call tto obey the Lord. I tink many of those type people who are left behind, will become on fire for the Lord and pick up their cross with their whole heart during the Tribulation. These may even be some of who which make up the 144,000?

The church age will be over but the Gospel message will continue to be Preached. Workers are needed in the field for that. That will be their purpose going through the Trib.

Can you show in the following passage where it indicates that those left behind will survive?

Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. 32 Remember Lot's wife. 33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. 35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

Did I stop reading too soon? Lol. Ok, scripture does not say that. There will be people saved during the Tribulation and not all will take the mark of the beast. Many of those will be martyred and beheaded...but their soul will be saved upon death. Allow me a scripture:

Revelation 7:13-16
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.../KJV

This is how the NLT version states it:
14 And I said to him, “Sir, you are the one who knows.”

Then he said to me, “These are the ones who died in[a] the great tribulation.[b] They have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb and made them white.../NLT

So there are some who live through the Trib.

The word "the" is not in the Greek. The KJV gets it right by referring to it as "great tribulation" rather than "THE great tribulation". All believers go through great tribulation.

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

 

[rwb]

One reason is to fulfill the remaining prophecies which have not been fulfilled as yet. Like Israel getting it's complete borders as it's promised land. All the way to the Euphraters river (or where it used to be lol) and many other prophecies. Plus I tink He just wants to show us, that, it can work. This is how it was supposed to be, my Children...In essence, we'll be back in the garden of Eden again with respect to daily fellowship with the Lord! Walking and talking directly to Him!.
I wonder if Adam & Eve had not fallen...where would we be now? 1000 years is enough time for that!

We have no hope as a nation or as a human species without God being front and center in our lives. We would kill ourselves through ignorance and war. But we still have more to learn! Apparently, this is dangerous universe.

There are no promises yet to be fulfilled regarding the promised land. Joshua plainly says that nothing regarding the land and driving away all enemies from it that ALL the promises to Israel of Old were fulfilled when the land was divided according to each of the twelve tribes of Israel. However, the promises of God to them would only be forever as long as they remained faithful to God alone and obeyed His commands.

Joshua 21:43-45 (KJV) And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein. And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand. There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

Joshua 23:9-13 (KJV) For the LORD hath driven out from before you great nations and strong: but as for you, no man hath been able to stand before you unto this day. One man of you shall chase a thousand: for the LORD your God, he it is that fighteth for you, as he hath promised you. Take good heed therefore unto yourselves, that ye love the LORD your God. Else if ye do in any wise go back, and cleave unto the remnant of these nations, even these that remain among you, and shall make marriages with them, and go in unto them, and they to you: Know for a certainty that the LORD your God will no more drive out any of these nations from before you; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until ye perish from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.

 

[WPM]

There are no promises yet to be fulfilled regarding the promised land. Joshua plainly says that nothing regarding the land and driving away all enemies from it that ALL the promises to Israel of Old were fulfilled when the land was divided according to each of the twelve tribes of Israel. However, the promises of God to them would only be forever as long as they remained faithful to God alone and obeyed His commands.

Joshua 21:43-45 (KJV) And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein. And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand. There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

Joshua 23:9-13 (KJV) For the LORD hath driven out from before you great nations and strong: but as for you, no man hath been able to stand before you unto this day. One man of you shall chase a thousand: for the LORD your God, he it is that fighteth for you, as he hath promised you. Take good heed therefore unto yourselves, that ye love the LORD your God. Else if ye do in any wise go back, and cleave unto the remnant of these nations, even these that remain among you, and shall make marriages with them, and go in unto them, and they to you: Know for a certainty that the LORD your God will no more drive out any of these nations from before you; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until ye perish from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.

Bro,

I have missed your posts. The depth and quality have been a big loss to this board. Be encouraged.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There are no promises yet to be fulfilled regarding the promised land. Joshua plainly says that nothing regarding the land and driving away all enemies from it that ALL the promises to Israel of Old were fulfilled when the land was divided according to each of the twelve tribes of Israel. However, the promises of God to them would only be forever as long as they remained faithful to God alone and obeyed His commands.

Joshua 21:43-45 (KJV) And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein. And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand. There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

Joshua 23:9-13 (KJV) For the LORD hath driven out from before you great nations and strong: but as for you, no man hath been able to stand before you unto this day. One man of you shall chase a thousand: for the LORD your God, he it is that fighteth for you, as he hath promised you. Take good heed therefore unto yourselves, that ye love the LORD your God. Else if ye do in any wise go back, and cleave unto the remnant of these nations, even these that remain among you, and shall make marriages with them, and go in unto them, and they to you: Know for a certainty that the LORD your God will no more drive out any of these nations from before you; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until ye perish from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.

Agree. The scripture is clear. Also, any Christian, Jew or Gentile, who understands scripture knows that the new heavens and new earth is the promised land we are looking forward to.

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

The new heavens and new earth is the promised land that Abraham and other Old Testament saints were looking for, not a piece of land on this earth as we know it:

Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. 13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

God has prepared for us a heavenly city? What city is that?

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Speaking of something like that, but not to venture OT here since I have no desire in this thread to discuss and debate this subject, so, food for thought only.

Numbers 35:4 And the suburbs of the cities, which ye shall give unto the Levites, shall reach from the wall of the city and outward a thousand cubits round about.

Imagine trying to follow those instructions coherently if one is taking a thousand to mean what Amils typically take it mean throughout the Bible.

When you said a thousand cubits, what exactly are you meaning, though? 2000 cubits? 3000 cubits? What???

David, you are a silly goose. Amils do not say that the word "thousand" is never used literally in scripture. We only point out that it is sometimes used figuratively, so that should be kept in consideration when interpreting Revelation 20.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I am not trying to. I maintain that a pre-70th week rapture is possible, but not mandatory.

But the post-trib view is eliminated , not possible, because people will not be at ease, eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage during the great tribulation when God's wrath is poured out.

And by what the one single passage of 1Thessalonians5:9 says.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.

Would you agree that the context of the wrath that Paul was referencing there in verse 9 was the wrath that he mentioned shortly before that?

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

I think it's quite clear that this is the wrath that Paul was alluding to in verse 9 which will be unexpected "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape".

The onus is on you to show that the "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape" occurs during a years long period of time, as you believe, rather than occurring in full on the day Christ returns, as post-tribs like me believe. There is certainly no indication of such (destruction lasting for years) in the text at all and nothing supporting that idea in 2 Peter 3:10-12, which speaks of the same "sudden destruction....from which they shall not escape" that will occur when the day of the Lord arrives unexpectedly.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So what are you claiming that the book of Mormon says about the timing of the rapture?

The Mormons believe in a post-trib rapture just like you do. You have just become an LDS.

LOL. You have so little discernment, that you missed his obvious point. He was not talking about their view of the rapture. He is saying that your pre-trib rapture view is as valid as the Book of Mormon as a whole.

 

[WPM]

Ahem.
Noah is gathered preflood.
Lot is gathered pre judgement

Do you even know how erroneous, twisted and nonsensical this appears?