God Created All Humanity When He Created Adam

[ElieG12]

The way Jehovah brings us out of that state is by offering his son as a sacrifice. It is like paying a very large debt that someone has to pay. The offense of our first parents was very serious when they took the side of the spirit that called God a liar. The consequences of that rebellion have been disastrous, but Jesus' suffering in laying down his life offers us the opportunity to be part of those who will benefit from that arrangement that God has made to save the human race.

If Jesus had not died he would have lived forever, so his eternal life was what he offered by allowing himself to be killed. An eternal perfect life pays for the lives lost in less than 7000 years of human existence.

 

[RedFan]

The way Jehovah brings us out of that state is by offering his son as a sacrifice. It is like paying a very large debt that someone has to pay.

Why couldn't the Almighty Creditor just forgive the debt, without seeing His Son nailed to a cross?

 

[ElieG12]

Why couldn't the Almighty Creditor just forgive the debt, without seeing His Son nailed to a cross?

I think that is part of the laws of existence: everything has a price.

Psal. 49:6 Those who are trusting in their wealth
And who boast about their great riches,
7 None of them can ever redeem a brother
Or give to God a ransom for him,
8 (The ransom price for their life is so precious
That it is always beyond their reach);
9 That he should live forever and not see the pit.

But he paid it for us:

John 3:16 For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.

 

[RedFan]

John 3:16 For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.

I don't quibble with faith in Christ leading to salvation. My question is why a crucifixion had to be involved here. Why was the blood of His only Son, in a brutal death, demanded as the price of forgiveness?

A debt -- a civil matter, not a criminal matter -- can be forgiven at the whim of the creditor. If the offense to God were deemed criminal and there is imposed a sentence punishing the wrongdoer, punishment of the wrongdoer is required. No substitutes are allowed; mom or dad, brother or sister may NOT serve my sentence for me, much less go to the gallows for me. If the debt is deemed civil, however, the creditor can cancel it at will.

Not so here, apparent;y. Why not?

 

[ElieG12]

I don't quibble with faith in Christ leading to salvation. My question is why a crucifixion had to be involved here. Why was the blood of His only Son, in a brutal death, demanded as the price of forgiveness?

A debt -- a civil matter, not a criminal matter -- can be forgiven at the whim of the creditor. If the offense to God were deemed criminal and there is imposed a sentence punishing the wrongdoer, punishment of the wrongdoer is required. No substitutes are allowed; mom or dad, brother or sister may NOT serve my sentence for me, much less go to the gallows for me. If the debt is deemed civil, however, the creditor can cancel it at will.

Not so here, apparent;y. Why not?

If you read the story you will realize that Satan told Eve that God was lying to her. He told her that they would not die if they ate the fruit, that they would be like God. In those few words he meant that God's rule was unjust, and that he was purposely taking away something that was good for them: the knowledge of good and evil that could elevate them to a higher level of existence.

A challenge to Sovereignty was raised and the genuine love of the Creator to the human couple was questioned. If God had destroyed all the guilty, the rest of his universal family would have been left with an important question: was Satan right in what he told Eve?

So the Creator let time pass for the natural consequences of separating from Him and violating His rules to be demonstrated. Not much time has passed since that, but the time that has passed has been more than enough to demonstrate that the liar was Satan, and that the consequences of his lies were disastrous for all humans.

Do you think that matter would have been resolved if he had wiped out everyone at once?

 

[RedFan]

If you read the story you will realize that Satan told Eve that God was lying to her. He told her that they would not die if they ate the fruit, that they would be like God. In those few words he meant that God's rule was unjust, and that he was purposely taking away something that was good for them: the knowledge of good and evil that could elevate them to a higher level of existence.

A challenge to Sovereignty was raised and the genuine love of the Creator to the human couple was questioned. If God had destroyed all the guilty, the rest of his universal family would have been left with an important question: was Satan right in what he told Eve?

So the Creator let time pass for the natural consequences of separating from Him and violating His rules to be demonstrated. Not much time has passed since that, but the time that has passed has been more than enough to demonstrate that the liar was Satan, and that the consequences of his lies were disastrous for all humans.

Do you think that matter would have been resolved if he had wiped out everyone at once?

Of course not. I agree with everything you said here. And if you'd said "the sky is blue," I'd agree with that too. Both are equally irrelevant to question I posed, though. I will pose it again, and hope for an answer that actually addresses it: WHY WAS A CRUCIFIXION OF THE SON OF GOD NECESSARY TO ACHIEVE OUR FORGIVENESS?

 

[ElieG12]

Of course not. I agree with everything you said here. And if you'd said "the sky is blue," I'd agree with that too. Both are equally irrelevant to question I posed, though. I will pose it again, and hope for an answer that actually addresses it: WHY WAS A CRUCIFIXION OF THE SON OF GOD NECESSARY TO ACHIEVE OUR FORGIVENESS?

Because there was nothing else equivalent with what was lost.

The death of an imperfect man was not enough, many animals sacrifices were not enough, no matter how much gold you collect it wouldn't be enough, no matter how much scented incense you light wouldn't have been enough.

Again:

Psal. 49:6 Those who are trusting in their wealth
And who boast about their great riches,
7 None of them can ever redeem a brother
Or give to God a ransom for him,
8 (The ransom price for their life is so precious
That it is always beyond their reach);
9 That he should live forever and not see the pit.

Only a perfect life sacrifice could paid what was lost. So Jesus, who was a perfect spirit in heaven, came and was born as a human to be that equivalent prize.

1 Tim. 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all—this is what is to be witnessed to in its own due time.

 

[JBO]

You are mistaken.

All who are born are condemned to die, not for holiness from God, but from being born of sinful flesh.

As for man's spirit, it is not God's spirit, but man's--the spirit of the damned since Adam. Therefore we must be born again of the spirit of God. To say otherwise is against the teaching of Christ Jesus.

Where did your spirit come from?

 

[JBO]

You are mistaken.

No, I am not mistaken.

All who are born are condemned to die, not for holiness from God, but from being born of sinful flesh.

Adam and Eve were created with sinful flesh. Otherwise why did they sin?

As for man's spirit, it is not God's spirit, but man's--the spirit of the damned since Adam. Therefore we must be born again of the spirit of God. To say otherwise is against the teaching of Christ Jesus.

It is man's spirit given him by God at or before birth. It was a perfectly good spirit. And yes, once one has sinned, his spirit is no longer as it was when God gave it. He needs to be reborn to once again renew it to the condition that it was when God first gave it. That is why it is called born again.

 

[JBO]

If I sin it is because I can't control all my actions because of the imperfect body I got out of the sin of my first human parents.

Does the phrase: "no one is perfect" sound familiar to you? It's real.

The reason a human cannot sire a horse is the same reason an imperfect man cannot sire a perfect one: genetics.

Imagine a mold to make bread. If the mold has a dent, all the breads that come out of that mold will have the same defect. Adam was our mold.

Nothing happened to Adam's body when he sinned.

 

[JBO]

Why couldn't the Almighty Creditor just forgive the debt, without seeing His Son nailed to a cross?

God must, because of His holiness, punish sin. Forgiveness of the sin is not punishment for sin. Sin must be punished. Jesus took our place in the punishment for sin.

 

[ElieG12]

... Adam and Eve were created with sinful flesh. Otherwise why did they sin?
...

The sin of Adam and Eve did not come from imperfect and weak bodies, but from their minds, a conscious reasoning that led Eve to desire the fruit, and then another on Adam's part to share with his wife.

A perfect person can consciously decide to disobey God. The Devil was a perfect spirit, and the angels who followed him were equally so. Jesus was born as a perfect human and yet the Devil tried to make him fall into his temptations.

The fact that a perfect person can decide and control his actions under full control demonstrates his perfection. An automaton could not decide. Animals, for example, are instinctively programmed, and their learned abilities are only conditioned reflexes.

 

[ElieG12]

Nothing happened to Adam's body when he sinned.

It happened first to their minds (they knew they were naked), and the consequences spread to their bodies as God told them: they grew old and finally died.

 

[APAK]

God performed 1 single creative act in making Man.

Genesis 1:27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

This wasn't simply God creating a single man, to be followed by an innumerable series of individuals. When God created Adam, He created all humanity. From Adam, Eve was taken, but not as a new creative act as when God created Adam.

Children when they are conceived are not each new creations like Adam was, but are the unfolding of Humanity, created by God in that day, now unfolding through the centuries as each generation comes from the last. The child is of course formed from cells that come from the parents, as a continuation of the same life created in Adam on that day.

We see this here,

Hebrews 7:8-10
(8) And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
(9) And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
(10) For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

Levi paid tithes to Melchisedec, being in the loins of his father, Abraham, who was likewise in the loins of his father, and so on, back to Adam.

When Adam died, because he sinned, all humanity died, being in the loins of Adam. Just as Levi paid tithes.

Much love!

Great perspective

 

[JBO]

Of course not. I agree with everything you said here. And if you'd said "the sky is blue," I'd agree with that too. Both are equally irrelevant to question I posed, though. I will pose it again, and hope for an answer that actually addresses it: WHY WAS A CRUCIFIXION OF THE SON OF GOD NECESSARY TO ACHIEVE OUR FORGIVENESS?

The crucifixion was not for forgiveness. It was punishment of sin. Forgiveness was obtained in the animal sacrifices. Forgiveness was obtained in the baptism of John. Neither paid the price of punishment for sin. That was what we received from Jesus' death on the cross. And that is received only by those who believe in God and obey the gospel. For those who do not believe nor obey the gospel, they will end up paying the price of punishment for sin which for them is eternal condemnation.

 

[JBO]

It happened first to their minds (they knew they were naked), and the consequences spread to their bodies as God told them: they grew old and finally died.

Growing old and dying is the fact of creation for all physical life. There is no such thing as immortal physical life. Even in the resurrection there will be spiritual life, not natural (physical) life (1 Cor 15:44).

 

[ElieG12]

Growing old and dying is the fact of creation for all physical life. There is no such thing as immortal physical life. Even in the resurrection there will be spiritual life, not natural (physical) life (1 Cor 15:44).

No for human creation. God told Adam:

Gen. 2:16 (...) “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. 17 But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will certainly die.”

The opposite is a logical deduction from that divine statement: "but if you obey and do not touch it, then you will not die."

 

[JBO]

The sin of Adam and Eve did not come from imperfect and weak bodies, but from their minds, a conscious reasoning that led Eve to desire the fruit, and then another on Adam's part to share with his wife.

All sin comes from the conscious mind. It derives from the wrong free will choice.

 

[JBO]

No for human creation. God told Adam:

Gen. 2:16 (...) “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. 17 But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will certainly die.”

The opposite is a logical deduction from that divine statement: "but if you obey and do not touch it, then you will not die."

And he died spiritually the moment he disobeyed. He didn't die physically for over a hundred years; and that because he no longer had access to the fruit of the tree of life.

 

[ElieG12]

All sin comes from the conscious mind. It derives from the wrong free will choice.

Not necessarily.

Have you never done something that you later say "I did without thinking"?

Emotions, feelings, hormones, enzymes, physical or mental illnesses, etc., are not rationalized; They affect our bodies and cause attitudes that are sometimes uncontrollable and actions that are practically inevitable.

For example, people with elevated cholesterol and blood pressure tend to be more prone to anger.