What is the mystery that Paul references in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52? Is it the rapture (catching up to Christ) as pretrib teaches or something else?

[3 Resurrections]

You understand that you have some unique beliefs all to yourself, right? Do you really believe that God reveals things only to you?

"There is nothing new under the sun", as you know. I could hardly invent something totally unique to myself alone. I am seeking for others who might have come to any of the same conclusions from their reading. If you are not one of them, that's quite alright...I keep looking and posting.

I'm nobody really. No degrees, no social media, not much money, no books to sell - not even a pamphlet. But God tends to hide things from the wise and prudent and reveal them unto babes. That way HE gets the credit for any truth He chooses to reveal. I love Him and His book as I love no other thing on earth. And I cling to the promise that "they who seek the Lord understand all things".

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I definitely don't believe that the church ever ends, so you're right about that. Scripture never teaches such an utterly nonsensical thing as that.

It does, but as you said, you don't believe it.

Nonsense. You are making scripture say what you want it to say. There is no indication there that the wedding takes place in heaven. You pretending to be a Greek expert is not convincing at all. What it is saying is that the time of the marriage will have come at that point without giving any indication of where the marriage actually takes place. Keeping other scripture in mind, what will happen at that point is that Jesus will take the souls of the dead in Christ with Him from heaven and unit them with their resurrected and changed bodies and gather them to Himself "in the air" along with those who are alive and remain. At that point He will take vengeance on and destroy His enemies with "sudden destruction" by fire from which "they shall not escape" (2 Thess 1:7-10, 1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Peter 3:10-12).

Well As I said, I am not a greek expert, having only taken one year of Greek. By the way , how much formal greek studies have you had? But I do rely on Greek experets. And you are correct in that teh verse does not say in heaven. but as the church is in heaven in Rev. 19 and the announcement is that the wedding is arrived- it takes place in heaven. You disagree? Show your evidence. You have the rapture at post trib and while Jesus hits the atmosphere. Kind of sloppy for a perfect God! Two minutes away from landing or less and then He is going to raise the dead and snatch the living in the last two minutes

YOu also have the church going through the 7 year tribulation which the bible says will not happen.

I disagree. The Greek does not say that the wedding takes place in heaven. The Greek indicates that the time for the wedding will have come at that point when Jesus will come again, as indicated in Revelation 19, but does not specify where the wedding would take place.

Do you understand that even Greek experts don't all agree with each other? It's not as if knowing Greek automatically means you will discern the meaning of the original Greek scriptures accurately.

And at that point the church is iin heaven for the bride is ready. If the church is still on earth and has not had her useless works purged how can she be ready? If the church is still capable of sin how can she be ready?

Cite me one greek expert who disagrees that the wedding takes place in heaven.

Why?

1. You have the church suffering through the trib, which the bible declares is not for the church and lists the two reasons for the tribulation.
2. You have the wedding on earth but yet the church is in heaven prior to Jesus return unless you take the first part of REv. 19 occuring after the middle part which describes Jesus return! That is just grammatic "twister".
3. Paul comforted the church by reminding them in Thess. that we will be delivered from the wrath to com. The lake of fire is never called the wrath to come, but the 70th week of Daniel is most definitely called in many places a time of wrath!

1 Thessalonians 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Tell me why we will meet Jesus "in the air" if He is coming down to earth? Why wouldn't we just meet Him on the earth? I ask a similar question to pre-tribs. Why would we meet Him "in the air" instead of in heaven if He is going to take us to heaven. Premillennialism is what is silly, not my Amillennialism view. Premils, whether pre-trib or post-trib, have no answer for why we will meet Jesus "in the air" rather than in heaven or on earth. Amils have a very reasonable explanation for that. It will be because He will be renewing heaven and earth at that time (2 Peter 3:10-12). So, we will be taken to the new earth after that, not the earth as we know it now.

That is what I am asking you! If Jesus is going to snatch everyone on HIs return when He hits the atmosphere--then why?
You forget that the church has to stand before the bema seat judgment of Jesus to have our works done in His name tried

1 Corinthians 3:11-15

King James Version

​

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

After this judgment , rewards are handed and our robes of righteousness are given. that is why Rev. 19 states the bride has made herself ready! This bema judgment takes place after the rapture and before the return of Jesus in heaven.

 

[Timtofly]

Look what this ignores, though.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4 ¶And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?


Jesus was talking to Thomas at the time, for one. Obviously then, all the pronouns are meaning the ones He was talking to at the time. Not only them though, so not suggesting that. So the point is, we can't exclude them. And the fact Thomas is already long dead and gone how can Jesus come again and receive Thomas to Himself during the rapture of the church when that involves those still alive at the time not someone already dead?

Here's what the text would look like if we insert Thomas into it like such, for example.

Thomas, in my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you, Thomas. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you, Thomas, unto myself; that where I am, there ye, Thomas, may be also.


How then does that fit with how you are interpreting that passage by having it only involving a raptured church and none of it involving the ones He was speaking to at the time?

Which brings up something else. If it is true that Thomas literally went to heaven upon death and that he is there now, thus where Jesus is, there Thomas is al;so, why then was Jesus applying that after He comes again rather than before He comes again?

How can anyone read the following and have such subpar reading comprehension that they conclude He is meaning before He comes again rather than after---I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also?


That part is a lie if Thomas is already where Jesus now is. It's a lie several ways. First of all the text does not say one comes to Jesus before He comes again. After all, if Thomas is already in heaven with Jesus before He comes again, this equals Thomas coming to where Jesus is, not Jesus coming to get Thomas first, then Thomas being where Jesus is. It's also a lie since Thomas would already be where Jesus is, except this passage says Jesus has to come again first, then Thomas will be where He is.

Makes me wonder why many, including me, don't think soul sleep is Biblical? Are we being honest with the text? Is there a way to understand this to where Thomas can already be where He is, yet not already be where He is until He comes again and receives Thomas to Himself? That sounds like a contradiction to me, not something that can be squared somehow.

Did Jesus say they had to wait for your Second Coming? Or does Jesus personally bring each and every soul home at the point the soul leaves this body of death?

See Stephen stating Jesus was standing receiving him to Himself. Acts 7:56

"And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God."

"And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."

 

[Timtofly]

LOL. As usual, you have no idea of what you're talking about. What he wrote in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 doesn't take much spiritual discernment at all to see what the mystery was that he revealed. He revealed the mystery very straightforwardly. So, no, you are wrong that Paul used the term "mystery" in the same sense as something needing to be "spiritually discerned", like he wrote about in 1 Corinthians 2:9-16.


Of course it would seem pointless to you because you don't understand anything. But, the reason for it is to show that the rapture itself (the act of being gathered and caught up to Christ) was not a mystery at the time Paul wrote 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 as pretribs claim. They want to believe that because that would mean the rapture was never previously mentioned. But, it was in John 14:1-3 and Matthew 24:31 (Mark 13:27). Pretribs don't want to admit that the rapture is referenced in Matthew 24:29-31 which talks about the gathering of believers occurring "immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days".

Obviously it is still a mystery to you, as you have a bunch a dead people up in heaven, waiting to be made alive.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Obviously it is still a mystery to you, as you have a bunch a dead people up in heaven, waiting to be made alive.

You are pathetic. I do not claim that they are not alive at all, as you are implying here. I believe physically dead believers are spiritually alive in heaven. Just because you can't understand how the soul and spirit of a person can be alive without the body doesn't mean I'm saying they are dead and unconscious. That's based on your understanding, not mine.

 

[Timtofly]

Tell me why we will meet Jesus "in the air" if He is coming down to earth? Why wouldn't we just meet Him on the earth? I ask a similar question to pre-tribs. Why would we meet Him "in the air" instead of in heaven if He is going to take us to heaven. Premillennialism is what is silly, not my Amillennialism view.

Jesus is coming to earth. The church is told to remain in heaven, until the final harvest is over.

"And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

This does not say wait until the rest of the brethren on earth are raptured to heaven.

This does say there are still humans on earth who need to be changed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. They were all changed, and even put on a robe of white. How many times will the church as a group put on a robe of white?

This verse expresses the point Jesus is still on the earth gathering the redeemed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh.

The church is not waiting on the earth now. Why would that change at the Second Coming? The vast majority of the church is already assembled in heaven, those whom Jesus brings with Him to meet those on the earth in the air between heaven and earth.

Together they put on white robes and then wait while Jesus and the angels are on the earth gathering the final harvest.

The church does not gather the final harvest. The church cannot even rapture itself. All the church can do is gather the church harvest until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in.

Jesus is on the earth as the Prince to come just the same as He was on the earth as Messiah to accomplish the Cross, and bring in the NT Covenant.

The Cross was at the end of that earthly ministry, not the start. The 7th Trumpet declaration is at the end of the final harvest, not the beginning. The 7th Trumpet is not the first event to happen, the Second Coming is the first event on earth to happen.

Why would all the church come to earth when it is the angels who gather the final harvest?

Matthew 13 does not say the church gathers in the wheat and tares. That is done by the angels. In Matthew 25 it does not say the church gathers the sheep and goats. Once again, that would be the angels. Look it up if you think I am just making it up.

 

[jeffweeder]

For we say this to you by the Lord’s [own] word,
This must have been spoken out as a prophecy in the early church.
And was accepted by the Apostles as truth as God bore witness to it within them, as coming from the Lord.
It is not found in the Gospels.

Not found in the Gospels.?
Did Jesus forget say something below?


Mk 13
21 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed)!’ or, ‘Look, He is there!’ do not believe it; 22 for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and they will provide signs and wonders in order to deceive, if [such a thing were] possible, even the elect [those God has chosen for Himself]. 23 But be on your guard; I have told you everything in advance.
24 “But in those days, after [the suffering and distress of] that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25 and the stars will be falling from the sky, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory [in royal majesty and splendor].

 

[Timtofly]

You are pathetic. I do not claim that they are not alive at all, as you are implying here. I believe physically dead believers are spiritually alive in heaven. Just because you can't understand how the soul and spirit of a person can be alive without the body doesn't mean I'm saying they are dead and unconscious. That's based on your understanding, not mine.

But they are in a state of death to you, and not made alive because you deny them their physical bodies. Being made alive is having a soul in a physical body that is permanent and incorruptible.

Being only soul is just as much alive in sheol, waiting to be made alive. Which is walking through the valley of the shadow of death. They were redeemed souls in sheol, but being made alive was receiving their physical body, and then you took that away from them, and claimed they died again. So you have them physically dying twice, and still not made alive.

Being made alive is the restoration from the state Adam left us with. Adam was alive in a permanent incorruptible physical body, with a spirit on that made him shine like the sun. Then he disobeyed God, the spirit was removed, thus spiritual death, as in seperated from that image of God. Then he was removed from God's permanent incorruptible physical body, and placed in a body of death, and corruption, thus physical death. The soul leaving the body of death, is redemption. Yet you just look at that as being physically dead. No, you are physically dead, and that is why you are called mortal. That word means death.

Those waiting in sheol may or may not have a body of death, but they certainly don't have their old body of sin and corruption.

Your soul is alive. It does not need to be made alive. It is made alive when restored to the image of God, soul, with a body, and with a spirit.

The Cross provided the physical means to be made alive for those waiting in sheol. They are made alive with a physical body, and enjoying Paradise and the tree of life. A soul cannot partake of the tree of life.

So if you say that is my understanding, I guess those in heaven are appreciating their physical body. Based on your understanding, they are just naked souls not yet made alive, but instead of in sheol dead and naked, they are in heaven, dead and naked. Because a soul is never dead, but dead in the sense that there is no body to be clothed upon with.

Having a dead corruptible body is still a state of death, because it is not a permanent incorruptible body.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

But they are in a state of death to you, and not made alive because you deny them their physical bodies. Being made alive is having a soul in a physical body that is permanent and incorruptible.

Being only soul is just as much alive in sheol, waiting to be made alive. Which is walking through the valley of the shadow of death. They were redeemed souls in sheol, but being made alive was receiving their physical body, and then you took that away from them, and claimed they died again. So you have them physically dying twice, and still not made alive.

I do not deny that they are alive in any sense as your previous comment implied. What you said there gave the impression that I don't believe they are alive and conscious in any sense and that is a case of misrepresenting my view.

 

[Scott Downey]

Not found in the Gospels.?
Did Jesus forget say something below?


Mk 13
21 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed)!’ or, ‘Look, He is there!’ do not believe it; 22 for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and they will provide signs and wonders in order to deceive, if [such a thing were] possible, even the elect [those God has chosen for Himself]. 23 But be on your guard; I have told you everything in advance.
24 “But in those days, after [the suffering and distress of] that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25 and the stars will be falling from the sky, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory [in royal majesty and splendor].

No it is not found in the gospels, any who read will see it is not.
There is none of the DETAILS in 1 Thess 4 as described in Mark 13.

Mark 13
24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His [h]elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

This is new information and was recorded back then to comfort the CHURCH.​

No mentions of God bringing with Christ the fallen asleep (physically dead) Church in Christ, and then the resurrection of the DEAD rising first, then living believers gathered up, only that is found in 1 Thess 4.

1 Thess 4
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen [b]asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who [c]sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [d]asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.