The absurdity of Pretrib logic
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... and still no Scripture. Childish name calling is all you have, apart from habitual avoidance.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
He has shared more details about what he believes than anyone on this entire forum, so I think you're kind of nitpicking here. You can always ask for clarification if you're not sure what he's saying.
Yeah, for sure. The time period Paul wrote about and that I believe Jesus alluded to in Matthew 24:10-13 and Matthew 24:23-26 relating to an increased level of deception and wickedness may very well have already started, and, if so, that would mean His coming is imminent.
What are you saying was always imminent to happen anyway? His coming and our being gathered to Him would not be imminent until a mass falling away from the faith occurred first and there isn't an indication for how long of a time period that would be of a falling away and increased wickedness before Jesus returns.
I showed you 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3. What do you think that is saying if you think it isn't saying that a time during which a mass falling away from the faith and significantly increased deception and wickedness had to occur first before His coming and our being gathered to Him takes place?
Yes, there is. Paul said a time when a mass falling away from the faith and significantly increased, unrestrained wickedness had to occur first before Jesus comes and we are gathered to Him.
Please tell me how you interpret this passage:
2 Thess 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
I have no idea of what you're saying here. We should accept what Paul taught about this.
I believe Jesus taught the same thing that Paul taught in 2 Thess 2:1-3 here:
Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
These are things that Jesus said would occur at some point before the end, which refers to the end of the age that He was asked about. He expanded on that later by saying this:
Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
This describes things that would happen just before His coming, which is described right after that passage, so those things had to happen first.
So, both Jesus and Paul talked about a time during which many would turn/fall away from the faith and it would be a time of increased wickedness with many false Christs and false prophets who "shall deceive many" and "if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect". Now that's a very high level of deception for Jesus to say that the level of deception will be so bad that it could deceive the very elect "if it were possible". So, even elect/saved people will be tempted by these false Christs and false prophets. They will be that convincing and that deceptive and it will be widespread. There are many churches now who are accepting all this LGBTQ+ wickedness and other things that you would never have thought you would see in churches not that long ago.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
That is your entire takeaway from Luke 17:26-37? Really? I'm surprised that you apparently do not believe that there references to one being taken and one left has to do with one being taken up to meet Christ and one left behind. From what you said here, you apparently believe that one being taken means being taken to be "forced to worship the statue image or else" and that the other left means to be left to flee? I've never seen this interpretation for one being taken and one left before. Honestly, it makes no sense to me whatsoever.
If you look at the whole passage of Luke 17:26-37 Jesus contrasted believers and unbelievers throughout. Yet, it seems that you think both the ones taken and the ones left are believers. That is not the context of that passage at all. Jesus contrasted Noah going on to the ark with those who were left outside the ark and were all killed. He contrasted Lot leaving Sodom with the unbelievers who were left behind in Sodom and all killed. That is the context of people either being taken or left. It means to either be taken away from God's wrath or to be left behind and killed. That is clearly the context of Luke 17:26-37, but you have come up with your own interpretation of the passage that I feel certain that no one else in the world shares with you.
No, not left to flee....but left to face further persecution. The fleeing they should have done earlier.
Actually, the first time I heard the interpretation I gave you of those verses in Luke 17 was by Jack Van Impe around 20 years ago.
Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Revelation 12:17 above is about those will be persecuted because they did not flee right away when the abomination of desolation statue image is setup on the temple mount. Revelation 12:14-16 is about those who flee into the mountains right away. They will be protected from the face of the dragon - Satan.
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Where do you see anything within Luke 17:26-37 about those who are left being "left to face further persecution."? The text clearly indicates that they will be killed. Why can't you acknowledge this? One more time I will post the passage and put in bold the parts which relate to those who are left, including when they are referred to directly and when they are compared to those who were left in other events.
Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. 32 Remember Lot's wife. 33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. 35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
Are you willing to be objective about this, Doug? Please follow along as I go through the passage above. In verses 26-33 Jesus contrasts the fates of believers and unbelievers. He first contrasts Noah with everyone who did not get on to the ark. Noah and his family obviously survived the flood because of being in the ark, but everyone else who was left outside the ark was destroyed.
Then, Jesus pointed out that on "the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all" with "them all" being everyone left in Sodom. Then, Jesus pointed out that it would be just like that "in the day when the Son of man is revealed".
So, Jesus compared the day of His coming when He is revealed to the day Noah entered the ark and the flood came and "destroyed them all" and He also compared it to the day Lot went out of Sodom and fire and brimstone came down and "destroyed them all". This implies that when Jesus comes He will destroy them all on that day as well.
Then, Jesus said to "Remember Lot's wife". Why? That is explained in the very next verse when He said "Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it". Lot's wife didn't want to let go of her life in Sodom, so she lost her life. Jesus contrasted that by saying "and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it".
So, from verses 26 to 33 Jesus repeatedly contrasts the fates of believers and unbelievers with believers lives being preserved and unbelievers losing their lives. With this in mind, doesn't that establish the context of what He said following that? I believe it clearly does. So, one taken and one left has to relate to one's life being preserved and the other's life being lost. That fits the context of what Jesus was talking about. Agree? If not, why not?
The Greek word translated as "taken" is paralambanō and it means to take to oneself or to be received. This is why most Christians rightly view this as relating to the rapture with the ones being taken as being taken up to meet the Lord in the air. In keeping with the context of what Jesus was saying before verses 34-37, the ones left are left behind to be killed just as unbelievers who were left out of Noah's ark were all killed and just as all of those who were left in Sodom were killed after Lot was taken by angels and led out of it.
Then, in the last verse of the passage, Jesus answers the question about where it would occur that one would be taken and one left by saying "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.". So, what He was saying there was wherever dead bodies would be found (the presence of the eagles or vultures implies that He was talking about dead bodies) is where one would be taken and one left with the one left having been killed and the other being taken up to meet the Lord in the air.
So, what I have done here is I have exegeted the passage. I carefully looked at the context in order to determine what Jesus was talking about throughout the passage. It does not appear that you have done the same, Doug. Your comments about this passage do not match what Jesus said in the passage at all.
If you still disagree with my interpretation of the passage, could you please go through it and show me how you interpret it and why?
I used to watch Jack Van Impe on TV a long time ago. I never agreed with his pre-trib view, but I thought his views on current events were interesting even though I thought it was silly and strange how he seemed to think every current event somehow related to Bible prophecy. I enjoyed seeing his enthusiasm for the Lord, though. I kind of cringed at how often it was pointed out on his show that he had the whole Bible (or most of it?) memorized. That's nice, but he seemed to be a bit prideful about it, which isn't good.
Anyway, have you tried to be like the Bereans (Acts 17:10-11) and study Luke 17:26-37 yourself to see if what Jack Van Impe taught about it is true or do you just kind of take his word for it? I ask that because I'm not seeing how your (his?) interpretation of the passage lines up with the context of the passage at all. I mean, it's not even close.
Where is the concept of fleeing and of persecution indicated anywhere within Luke 17:26-37? Please be specific.
MA2444
Well-Known Member
I do that to him because that's what he does to me. He hasnt ever responded to a post in anything approaching a reasonable train of thought, and he keeps asking for scripture when he wont read it, he wont respond to it or the point. Just nonsensical tangents.
Matthew 24:10-14
10 And many will turn away from me and betray and hate each other.
11 And many false prophets will appear and will deceive many people.
12 Sin will be rampant everywhere, and the love of many will grow cold.
13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
14 And the Good News about the Kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world, so that all nations[c] will hear it; and then the end will come.../NLT
In those verses Jesus is still talking about the end times, after the rapture. Satan doesnt know when the rapture will be either, but when it happens, he will know that his time is almost over so he increases the evil upon the people. If you keep reading past that point you'll see that esus is saying, but dont forget about what Daniel the prophet said
Matthew 24:15
15 “The day is coming when you will see what Daniel the prophet spoke about—the sacrilegious object that causes desecration[d] standing in the Holy Place.” (Reader, pay attention!).../NLT
And he goes on telling about the things that will happen but down in V36 He changes the subkect with the word However is de peri in Greek. The disciples know the language good so knew he was changing the subject, but it's easy to miss for us westerners that wasnt brought up with the language. One Pastor that does know the language gave a teaching on it, and I cant pretend to know Greek now but that's what he said and it makes sense to me.
Should we go see what Daniel had to say about rapture & end times now?
I say that because if the Father decided that He will make that decision later then I believe that it would become imminent at that time in a technical sense. Oh it would also pretty much show us that we're wrong again in what we were thiinking, somehow. IOW, maybe this isnt a falling away at all right now and God has a bigger thing planned that He will allow later. One of those, you aint seen nothing yet, things...
I'm making the point and aknowledging that you & I could both be wrong! It's happened before. Maybe, just maybe...you aint seen nothing yet!
2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
1 Now, dear brothers and sisters,[a] let us clarify some things about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and how we will be gathered to meet him.
2 Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Don’t believe them, even if they claim to have had a spiritual vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us.
3 Don’t be fooled by what they say. For that day will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness[b] is revealed—the one who brings destruction.../NLT
It is mystery to a point, certainly vague. We're going on the speculation that there must be a falling away and the antichrist has been revealed(?). Now we've already discussed that maybe we are seeing a falling away right now, and maybe we aint seen nothing yet and we arent seeing the big falling away first?
No antichrist has been revealed officially yet. Many think it is Obama now and that would mean, he has been revealed to the world. I mean, no matter who it is, they are not going to introduce him as the "antichrist"!! So maybe we're ready for a pretrib rapture?!
I'm in agreement with you here. This is about the end of days, the Tribulation, GT and all of the horrors that come with it. There's not one word about the rapture in any of this. The rapture has already happened at this point.
What is that one scripture you keep posting? Something about and they all die from persecution (something like that) ??
That would asking me to believe that:
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only Begotten Son , that whosoever will believe on Him should not perish but have everlasting life.../
That is not true then? There is horrible death first? Honey lets get married and we'll go to a gang fight and you'll be killed and then we can go to dinner...???!!! Is that our God and Savior? If everyone dies anyway then what good is a rapture at all? Rapture from what?
I'm sorry my friend but that does not compute. I may not be a Paul or a Moses, but I know the same God they have and everything He has taught me is that He is not an angry God out for vengeance. He is a loving God. He really really does love us way more than you have a clue about. I know this even from what little I do know. Not the Bride. The cream of the crop of humans in God's perspective. He knows we will fail! But those who lean on Him must do it through faith and not doctrine. (Lord help our unbelief).
until the indignation be overpast....
Cont.,
MA2444
Well-Known Member
Cont.,
Thats from wayy back in Isaiah 26:20-21
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.../KJV
See, this is one place the OT alludes to a rapture. There are others too.
Thats from wayy back in Isaiah 26:20-21
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.../KJV
See, this is one place the OT alludes to a rapture. There are others too.
MA2444
Well-Known Member
He talking about the end times here and I agree with you, these things will happen. But later in the chapter if you keep reading, Jesus changes the subject in V36 and starts talking about the rapture.
Matthew 24:
36 “However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself.[k] Only the Father knows.
37 “When the Son of Man returns, it will be like it was in Noah’s day. 38 In those days before the flood, the people were enjoying banquets and parties and weddings right up to the time Noah entered his boat. 39 People didn’t realize what was going to happen until the flood came and swept them all away. That is the way it will be when the Son of Man comes.
40 “Two men will be working together in the field; one will be taken, the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding flour at the mill; one will be taken, the other left..../NLT
I don't know Greek but I heard a Teacher speak that does know the language and he says the proof is in the details. Te Greek phrase, de prie means there's a change of subject. The NLT translate it to However. So it's easy to miss the change of subject to the rapture. They asked Him 3 questions? and Jesus answered them all but not necessarily in chronological order. So if you dont realize there is change of subject there it's easy to think that the rapture and the 2nd Coming are the same event, and it isnt true.
And Jesus finishes the discussion and the rest of the chapter with the rapture to give them some encouragment I think, give them the bad news first and then the good news.
MA2444
Well-Known Member
I may not be a P aul or a Moses, but I have walked in faith and tried to believe the word of God as it is written. But weird things happen when one walks in faith. (How many testimonies would you like to hear?!)
Here's one and I'll give tou the abbreviated version for brevity. It was an accident that I walked in faith one day I was out of coffee and I was about to pray for more coffee money (work was slow-self employed) but then I remembered the scriptures, dont worry about tomorrow, what you will eat or drink...God knows our needs before we ask...and so forth ao I thought, ok so I dont even have to pray about it, so I didnt. Within 30 minutes I had 2 pounds of fresh gourmet coffee beans knocking at my front door! For real! I went (TILT) like a pinball machine and then realized, I had acted in faith upon God's word, that what he said was true and thereby I, walked in faith in Him and His word. And esus responds to faith in action! He was fast! The coffee got there just as I poured the very last cup.
When a man walks in faith and God responds to him for that, you walk away from it with even more faith. Jesus was always telling people, Oh ye of little faith! When one walks in more faith then he gains experience in faith and how it works.
We get on here and argue doctrine back and forth, but where is our faith?
You said a few times that the church gets destroyed too because it says everyone dies? (something like that). If that is true then the church goes through the Trib & Great Trib? So that creates a huge contradiction to a couple of verses, one is Revelation 3:10, we are not apponted to wrath. The wrath of God is poured out from 7 bowlfils of wrath, is it not? So what do I do with Rev., 3:10?
Isaiah 26:20-21 Isaiah was a prophet. We wont even see the wrath of God. We'll be in heaven at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, but we wont be be able to see the earth I guess. And perhaps, rightly so. Who wants to watch a war movie? That's kid stuff.
If the church has to go through the Trib. Who gets to hide and when? We die anyway is that it?
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only Begotten Son that whosoever believes on Him will not perish but have everlasting life.../
Are you asking me to not beieve this? Jesus says My Bride, My Church! I will come pick you up in the aire and we'll stop by a gang fight and you wil be killed but after that, we'll go to dinner?
y friend that does not compute. Like I was saying, I may not be moses but I I know the same God and He has shown me over and over again that He loves every single one of us wayy more than we even have a clue about.
If we die there's no need for a rapture. Saved from the wrath of God...not saved from the of God? No. That is not Him. The rapture is real and it is pretrib. He loves us that much. He dies so that you wouldnt have to. The wrath of God is for the Unbelievers, not the Bride of Christ!
When we dont factor in faith into the doctrine, things get muddled up real fast. I have faith that my Lord's words are true, that we are not appointed to wrath and will be taken out to escape the terrible trials which must come upon the earth. Pretrib is supportd by Rev. 3:10, Isaiah 26:20-21 and a list of more, lol. Of course He saves the Bride! Why wouldnt He? That is the heart within the Lord that know. My Lord's heart says, Look at Ed! He just didnt pray for coffee because he has confidence in me! Take him some! Would He not even moreso save me from a real terrible situation?! Yes He wil. (Want another testimony? Bigger one?!)
I dont suggest holding a faith that the Lord is going to kill you brother. We look to Him for life, not death.
Here's one and I'll give tou the abbreviated version for brevity. It was an accident that I walked in faith one day I was out of coffee and I was about to pray for more coffee money (work was slow-self employed) but then I remembered the scriptures, dont worry about tomorrow, what you will eat or drink...God knows our needs before we ask...and so forth ao I thought, ok so I dont even have to pray about it, so I didnt. Within 30 minutes I had 2 pounds of fresh gourmet coffee beans knocking at my front door! For real! I went (TILT) like a pinball machine and then realized, I had acted in faith upon God's word, that what he said was true and thereby I, walked in faith in Him and His word. And esus responds to faith in action! He was fast! The coffee got there just as I poured the very last cup.
When a man walks in faith and God responds to him for that, you walk away from it with even more faith. Jesus was always telling people, Oh ye of little faith! When one walks in more faith then he gains experience in faith and how it works.
We get on here and argue doctrine back and forth, but where is our faith?
You said a few times that the church gets destroyed too because it says everyone dies? (something like that). If that is true then the church goes through the Trib & Great Trib? So that creates a huge contradiction to a couple of verses, one is Revelation 3:10, we are not apponted to wrath. The wrath of God is poured out from 7 bowlfils of wrath, is it not? So what do I do with Rev., 3:10?
Isaiah 26:20-21 Isaiah was a prophet. We wont even see the wrath of God. We'll be in heaven at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, but we wont be be able to see the earth I guess. And perhaps, rightly so. Who wants to watch a war movie? That's kid stuff.
If the church has to go through the Trib. Who gets to hide and when? We die anyway is that it?
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only Begotten Son that whosoever believes on Him will not perish but have everlasting life.../
Are you asking me to not beieve this? Jesus says My Bride, My Church! I will come pick you up in the aire and we'll stop by a gang fight and you wil be killed but after that, we'll go to dinner?
y friend that does not compute. Like I was saying, I may not be moses but I I know the same God and He has shown me over and over again that He loves every single one of us wayy more than we even have a clue about.
If we die there's no need for a rapture. Saved from the wrath of God...not saved from the of God? No. That is not Him. The rapture is real and it is pretrib. He loves us that much. He dies so that you wouldnt have to. The wrath of God is for the Unbelievers, not the Bride of Christ!
When we dont factor in faith into the doctrine, things get muddled up real fast. I have faith that my Lord's words are true, that we are not appointed to wrath and will be taken out to escape the terrible trials which must come upon the earth. Pretrib is supportd by Rev. 3:10, Isaiah 26:20-21 and a list of more, lol. Of course He saves the Bride! Why wouldnt He? That is the heart within the Lord that know. My Lord's heart says, Look at Ed! He just didnt pray for coffee because he has confidence in me! Take him some! Would He not even moreso save me from a real terrible situation?! Yes He wil. (Want another testimony? Bigger one?!)
I dont suggest holding a faith that the Lord is going to kill you brother. We look to Him for life, not death.
... and this is at the core of Pretrib confusion. Where does the Bible say that the wrath of God equals a 7-years tribulation? Nowhere! It is a made up theory that Pretribs keep paroting as a fact, yet it is extra-biblical fiction.
Isaiah speaks of the resurrection of the dead, in Isaiah 26:19-21-27:1, and also identifies it with the time Satan is finally destroyed, saying, “Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon.”
Let us 1st establish what we are looking at in this overall passage. We are looking at one final future coming of Christ. We are looking at the resurrection of all. We are looking at the judgment of all - the elect and the unregenerate. The major difference between the two parties being: believers experience their eternal reward, the ungodly experience eternal punishment.
As we have seen in the various judgment passages we have already looked at, Christ is shown here to raise all men at His coming and exercise final and eternal judgment upon all. Isaiah commences this general resurrection discourse here by stating “dead men shall live,” the reason being, because “the earth shall cast out the dead” (speaking about the general resurrection of the dead).
Stop cherry-picking what you quote and stop adding unto Scripture. Read the context!
Jesus says of His coming in Matthew 24:35-44: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.”
The removal of the current heaven and earth is here connected to the coming of the Lord. After telling us that “heaven and earth shall pass away” Jesus immediately tells us: “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” This final day that is approaching is coming unexpectedly. This fits in with the “thief in the night” scenario found elsewhere in Scripture. It would seem to confirm that the day that Christ returns is the day when the current corrupt natural order (both the creature and creation) is
No, the verse actually says in the day when the Son of man is revealed. Which is in Matthew 24:30a, the sign of the Son of man in heaven.
The day being referred to is the day of the Lord. Not a 24 hour day.
1Thessalonian5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
The world will be saying Peace and safety because it will be thinking that it has entered the messianic age. But it will be a false messianic age as show on my chart.
When the abomination of desolation statue image is placed on the temple mount, them in Judea are to flee right away. Don't take time to pack up all the household materials, like family photo albums, and silverware, things accumulated over a life time, like in preparing for a move. Instead, leave that stuff behind, and flee to the mountains in the quickest way possible.
MA2444
Well-Known Member
Lol. The reason is, it is not in God's Book. You know it! Avoidance is all you have.
You cannot respond to the Op or every single text presented here that forbids Pretrib.
Your theology seems like an elaborate cinvulted man-made extra-biblical scheme.
The Light
Well-Known Member
You can post countless scriptures. It won't matter
He just responds with the same..............No one can post a single scripture blah, blah, blah. Nonsense.
They jump up and down claiming ............show me the rapture in Revelation.......blah, blah, blah
Easy enough.
And yet they are unable to show the rapture in Revelation.
Comical.
More lies! I showed you a detailed outline of Revelation, and you say this. You are obviously frustrated because every argument, theory and twisting of Scripture you have presented has been solidly and repeatedly debunked.
Do you realize how pitiful Pretrib looks to those watching on?
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
What evidence do you have to back this up?
I'm sorry, but nothing you said here makes any sense to me.
The rapture (being caught up to Christ) is not mentioned anywhere in Daniel, so I would say this is not something we can do.
I don't know what you're trying to say here. It seems like you're just doing a lot of speculating, but I'd prefer to just stick by what scripture actually says.
Oh, sure, I think we could all be wrong about at least some things, but we should only go by what scripture says and not speculate on things that aren't actually taught in scripture.
I'm sorry, but I can't follow your train of thought at all. Since scripture says certain things have to happen before His coming and our being gathered to Him, this shows that His coming was not imminent until those things happen first. And how can there be an imminent pretrib rapture when scripture says there are certain things that have to happen first before the rapture occurs?
How are you coming to this conclusion? You are saying this about the scriptures I posted, which were Matthew 24:10-13 and Matthew 24:23-26. If you keep reading after verse 26, this is what it says:
Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
So, right after the things Jesus mentioned in verses 23-26 which involve such a high level of deception that it could deceive even the elect, if that were possible, it says "Immediately after the tribulation of those days...they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect". There's the reference to the rapture and it occurs "immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days". So, the rapture is POST-TRIB, not pre-trib.
This?
Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Say what now? Why in the world would you ask me a question like this? What in the world did I say that would lead you to think that I could possibly say that John 3:16 is not true or would ever not be true?
What are you talking about? You are almost impossible to follow. Please try to communicate more clearly.
Who said that everyone will die before the rapture? Not me. I truly have no idea of what you're talking about here. Christians have been persecuted for the past almost 2,000 years, so why are you acting like it's some horrible thing that Christians would be killed before the rapture? You seem to have the false impression that I believe all Christians will be killed before the rapture, but I've never said such a thing.
What does not compute? That literally all Christians would be killed before the rapture? Yes, of course that doesn't compute, but no one is saying that. Please talk to me instead of your straw man.
What in the world are you saying here? Of course, God loves us, His people. Are you somehow thinking that I believe He would take His wrath out on us? No, of course not! Please be serious. But, He will take His vengeance on His enemies which are those who deny Him (2 Thess 1:7-10). My contention is that there will be no need to take us off the earth until His final wrath that burns up the entire earth on the day Jesus returns (2 Peter 3:10-12). God is certainly capable of protecting us while on the earth before that day if He wants to. He protects people when He wants to, but also He will allow people like Stephen to be persecuted and killed if it serves His purpose. Stephen accomplished more with his death than he would have by continuing to live because he serves as an excellent role model for all of us.
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Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Yep. I believe that is talking about the day Jesus returns when we will be caught up to Him in the air "for a little moment" while He takes vengeance on His enemies.
2 Thess 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
I disagree. Why would you not think that the rapture is described here:
Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
I have no idea of what you're talking about. Look at verse 36. It says "no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen". What things that will happen? The things Jesus previously mentioned just before that. How can you think the subject changed when things Jesus is alluding to things that He had just talked about before that verse? He was not saying "No one knows the day or hour of these things that I haven't even mentioned yet will occur". That makes no sense.
Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
What day and hour did Jesus allude to here? A day and hour that He had not yet alluded to? No. That would defy all logic and common sense. He was alluding to the day when He comes when the angels will gather the elect, this generation will pass away and even heaven and earth will pass away. No one knows when that day will come except for the Father.
Let's take a closer look at the context of the verses you referenced, which were Matthew 24:36-41.
Matthew 24:36 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Notice how Jesus talks about the day Noah entered the ark and how the flood "took them all away". It killed everyone not on the ark, right? You believe these verses relate to what will happen when the rapture occurs, right? I do, too. But, what you're missing is that when the rapture occurs (we can relate Noah going on to the ark to us being caught up to Christ), what also occurs that day is that Jesus will destroy all of His enemies (2 Thess 1:7-10). That's why right after indicating that the flood destroyed everyone not on the ark Jesus said "so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Does this make sense?
As for Jesus saying one will be taken and one left, we can gain further insight into what that means by reading the following passage:
Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. 32 Remember Lot's wife. 33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. 35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
We agree that the reference to one being taken and one left refers to what will happen at the rapture, but where we disagree is on what happens to those who are left. You think they are left to live during a time of tribulation. But, Jesus taught that they will all be killed.
In the passage above, I color coded the parts that relate to those who will be taken in red with the parts that talk about those who will be left in blue. Can you see how it contrasts the ones taken as surviving God's wrath on the day Christ returns and the rapture occurs with the ones left all being killed on that day just as those left out of the ark and those left in Sodom were all killed? As Jesus indicated in verse 37, the ones who are left will end up having their dead bodies feasted on by eagles.
I agree. He did not answer the questions in chronological order. If you see the reference to His coming and to the end of the age as being two different questions rather than one question about His coming at the end of the age, then I would see Matthew 24:4-14 is answering the question about the end of the age since "the end" is referenced in both verses 13 and 14. Then I believe He answered the question about the destruction of the temple buildings in Matthew 24:15-22. Then, in verse 23 I believe He began answering the question about His second coming.
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