What is the mystery that Paul references in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52? Is it the rapture (catching up to Christ) as pretrib teaches or something else?

[Spiritual Israelite]

Well to me it’s obvious that people who are physically alive do get married but people who are physically dead don’t. If “this age” is referring to our current temporal age then I have to conclude that both physically alive and physically dead people are still getting married, up until the eternal age.

Sorry, but I can't make any sense of what you said here.

Can you address this, or explain how a physically dead person can get married?

What? We're not on the same page. Or even in the same book. Please explain why you are asking me this. I would hope that you would not actually believe that I think that a physically dead person can get married? That's ludicrous. So, what exactly are you getting at here?

Alright, Luke 20:35 states that a person has to be accounted worthy to obtain the age to come. Do you agree that everyone, both good and bad, will obtain the eternal age?

Not in the sense that Jesus was talking about. I believe He was talking about obtaining bodily eternal life in the eternal new heavens and new earth. That only pertains to believers.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Well written i s one thing. But don't forget that Paul visited both [places and we just do not know what else was taught in both towns. He taught much much more than what is in the letters. So you saying the rapture preceded the mystery in Corinth is purely subjective.

I believe he taught all the same things everywhere he went. Why wouldn't he? I'm sure he taught a lot more in Thessalonica than just what he recorded and the same is true in Corinth. But, of course, you have to decide for yourself what you believe about this.

John 14​

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King James Version​

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14 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Ah, good one! Yes, I agree that it's about the rapture. And, obviously this was taught well before 1st Corinthians was written. In keeping my promise not to argue about this, I will just say that we have to consider whether this is talking about us being brought to heaven or Jesus bringing heaven to us (new heaven = heaven brought to us). I'll say no more unless you decide that you want to discuss it more.

Churches will use different phraseology to talk about teh same thing. In my 50 years as a believer I have seen the same subject declared with differing words, but they all mjean the same thing.

Yes, that's certainly true that not everyone uses the same terminology for things.

 

[Truth7t7]

I agree. But, I'm not trying to test you since you are not a pre-tribber. The point of this thread is to refute the pre-trib beliefs that the mystery Paul was talking about was the rapture (gathering and catching up to Christ) itself, but that is not the case. Instead, the mystery is the change of our bodies to be made incorruptible and immortal when the last trumpet sounds at Christ's future second coming.

We agree on this subject, the pre-trinbers do nothing more than take verses that show tye second coming and try desperately to claim its a pre-trib rapture 100% error

This error is no different that posters that claim Matthew 24:21 the great tribulation took place in 70AD on tye Roman destruction of Jerusalem, when Matthew 24:29-31 clearly shows immediately after this tribulation the second coming takes place "Future" wvent

Question: Do you see a 2,000 gap anywhere between Matthew 24:21 & Matthew 24:29?

Many posters run from this question, that fully exposes the false teaching of a 70AD fulfillment of Matthew 24:

 

[grafted branch]

What? We're not on the same page. Or even in the same book. Please explain why you are asking me this. I would hope that you would not actually believe that I think that a physically dead person can get married? That's ludicrous. So, what exactly are you getting at here?

I don’t think you or anyone else believes dead people can get married.

So let’s clarify a few things, is everyone, both physically dead and physically alive people, currently in this temporal age? If so then doesn’t the statement “marry and given in marriage” apply to all who are in “this age”?

Not in the sense that Jesus was talking about. I believe He was talking about obtaining bodily eternal life in the eternal new heavens and new earth. That only pertains to believers.

Ok, so we have to narrow down the definition of “age” in this instance to only include those who are saved? Is this correct?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

We agree on this subject, the pre-trinbers do nothing more than take verses that show tye second coming and try desperately to claim its a pre-trib rapture 100% error

This error is no different that posters that claim Matthew 24:21 the great tribulation took place in 70AD on tye Roman destruction of Jerusalem, when Matthew 24:29-31 clearly shows immediately after this tribulation the second coming takes place "Future" wvent

My goodness, there is something very wrong with you. You can't be happy that we agree on something. You have to bring up an entirely different topic to try to stir up dissension. Please grow up. If you want to talk about that topic, start a new thread about it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I don’t think you or anyone else believes dead people can get married.

So, don't ask me if I believe that then. I expect ridiculous questions from people like Timtofly, but not you. It's a waste of time and is insulting.

So let’s clarify a few things, is everyone, both physically dead and physically alive people, currently in this temporal age?

No, I think the context is in relation to this temporal earth age and not to whatever is going on in heaven or hell. I don't really know how time works exactly in heaven or hell (if there is even time there at all), but I don't believe it's the same as on earth. And, again, I believe Jesus was talking in terms of the temporal age of earth and contrasting it with the eternal age to come of the new earth.

Ok, so we have to narrow down the definition of “age” in this instance to only include those who are saved? Is this correct?

Only the saved will obtain the eternal age to come on the new earth while the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Matt 25:41, Rev 20:15). I think I'm being clear about what I believe, but you are often confused about what I'm saying. What would you say is the reason for that? Am I doing a poor job of communicating or are our perspectives just so different that it's hard to understand each other? I think the latter, but I'm honestly not sure.

 

[Truth7t7]

My goodness, there is something very wrong with you. You can't be happy that we agree on something. You have to bring up an entirely different topic to try to stir up dissension. Please grow up. If you want to talk about that topic, start a new thread about it.

Yes your put in a corner running in childish slander when your belief is exposed, you point out other posters teachings and you won't defend your own, there's no need to start a thread, answer the simple question below

You claim Matthew 24:21 the great tribulation took place in 70AD in the Roman destruction of Jerusalem, when Matthew 24:29-31 clearly shows immediately after this tribulation the second coming takes place a "Future" event unfulfilled

Once Again Question: Do you see a 2,000 gap anywhere between Matthew 24:21 & Matthew 24:29?

Why do you run from this question, that fully exposes the false teaching of a 70AD fulfillment of Matthew 24:21?

 

[jeffweeder]

For sure. Are you just supporting what I said or did I give the impression that I thought otherwise? If I misspoke somewhere, I'll go and edit it because I certainly agree with everything you're saying here.

Yes. My post was intended to support what you are saying. Some seem to be having a hard time understanding you thats all.

But, again, the point of the thread is simply to show what the mystery is in 1 Cor 15:51-52. Would you agree that the mystery Paul revealed was simply that we (the resurrected dead in Christ and the living who are in Christ) will all be changed to put on immortality at the last trumpet? And that the mystery did not include the dead being resurrected (that was obviously already known) or believers being gathered to Christ (also already known)?

Full agreement. 

 

[jeffweeder]

Yes your put in a corner running in childish slander when your belief is exposed, you point out other posters teachings and you won't defend your own, there's no need to start a thread, answer the simple question below

You claim Matthew 24:21 the great tribulation took place in 70AD in the Roman destruction of Jerusalem, when Matthew 24:29-31 clearly shows immediately after this tribulation the second coming takes place a "Future" event unfulfilled

Once Again Question: Do you see a 2,000 gap anywhere between Matthew 24:21 & Matthew 24:29?

Why do you run from this question, that fully exposes the false teaching of a 70AD fulfillment of Matthew 24:21?

Off topic.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes your put in a corner running in childish slander when your belief is exposed, you point out other posters teachings and you won't defend your own,

LOL. And the childishness continues. I have defending my view MANY times and have explained it MANY times to you. Why do it yet again here in a thread about a different topic? Have you somehow forgotten what I've already told you about this many times? You are such an incredibly ridiculous person. I'm done with you. Goodbye.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes. My post was intended to support what you are saying. Some seem to be having a hard time understanding you thats all.

Full agreement. 

Thanks, Jeff. That's what I figured. God bless you.

 

[Oneoff]

I'm jumping in without first reading the various replies.

"But as for 'The word 'rapture;' which simply means to be snatched or caught up.
In this case it refers to believers being caught up to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thess 4:14-17). Is that the mystery that Paul is referencing here as many pre-trib adherents believe?"

Just to hoist my colours someway up the mast I guess that I'm fairly well in concord with what you call "the pre-trib adherents".

 

[grafted branch]

So, don't ask me if I believe that then. I expect ridiculous questions from people like Timtofly, but not you. It's a waste of time and is insulting.

I didn’t directly ask you that, here’s what I said “Can you address this, or explain how a physically dead person can get married?”. That’s an either or thing, if you were unable to address the conclusion I had drawn then it would appear to me that you might have some kind of explanation for why dead people get married.

No, I think the context is in relation to this temporal earth age and not to whatever is going on in heaven or hell. I don't really know how time works exactly in heaven or hell (if there is even time there at all), but I don't believe it's the same as on earth. And, again, I believe Jesus was talking in terms of the temporal age of earth and contrasting it with the eternal age to come of the new earth.

Ok, so we also have to narrow down the definition of “age” again, to only include those who are physically alive, right?

Only the saved will obtain the eternal age to come on the new earth while the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Matt 25:41, Rev 20:15). I think I'm being clear about what I believe, but you are often confused about what I'm saying. What would you say is the reason for that? Am I doing a poor job of communicating or are our perspectives just so different that it's hard to understand each other? I think the latter, but I'm honestly not sure.

The problem for me is if I just assume you believe something based on your statement you say something like this … “You are not representing my view accurately, so I ask that you please take a little more time and put a little more effort into understanding what I actually believe. At the same time I will try to clarify what I believe as I have tried to do in this post.”

Back in post #49 you started off with a definition of age as … “So, "this age" is the temporal age that we are still living in now during which people get married and they die. The age to come in the future is the eternal age during which people will not get married and will not die.”

What you said is fine but it appears to me that if you would’ve also said that the eternal age didn’t include unbelievers and the temporal age didn’t include physically dead people, then I wouldn’t have to ask.

The definition of “age” <165> aion, doesn’t include all the restrictions you have, so naturally I have to ask about these things.



Here’s what Stong’s says …

an age, a cycle (of time), especially of the present age as contrasted with the future age, and of one of a series of ages stretching to infinity.

 

[Truth7t7]

Have you somehow forgotten what I've already told you about this many times? You are such an incredibly ridiculous person. I'm done with you. Goodbye.

I don't recall your answer, is all I remember is you "Running Away" from a direct answer, instead you use childish words in defamation

You claim Matthew 24:21 the great tribulation took place in 70AD in the Roman destruction of Jerusalem, when Matthew 24:29-31 clearly shows immediately after this tribulation the second coming takes place a "Future" event unfulfilled

Once Again Question: Do you see a 2,000 gap anywhere between Matthew 24:21 & Matthew 24:29?

Why do you run from this question, that fully exposes the false teaching of a 70AD fulfillment of Matthew 24:21?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I didn’t directly ask you that, here’s what I said “Can you address this, or explain how a physically dead person can get married?”. That’s an either or thing, if you were unable to address the conclusion I had drawn then it would appear to me that you might have some kind of explanation for why dead people get married.

To even suggest the possibility of dead people getting married...come on, man. ;)

Ok, so we also have to narrow down the definition of “age” again, to only include those who are physically alive, right?

Again? I never changed my definition of it. We're talking about time from the earth's perspective here. I thought that was obvious? You think the end of the age happened in 70 AD. That's earth time and not heaven time, right? Also, people don't get married in heaven, they get married on earth. We're dealing with earth time here. I thought this was obvious.

The problem for me is if I just assume you believe something based on your statement you say something like this … “You are not representing my view accurately, so I ask that you please take a little more time and put a little more effort into understanding what I actually believe. At the same time I will try to clarify what I believe as I have tried to do in this post.”

Back in post #49 you started off with a definition of age as … “So, "this age" is the temporal age that we are still living in now during which people get married and they die. The age to come in the future is the eternal age during which people will not get married and will not die.”

I think that was a very straightforward comment. I have no idea why you're confused.

What you said is fine but it appears to me that if you would’ve also said that the eternal age didn’t include unbelievers and the temporal age didn’t include physically dead people, then I wouldn’t have to ask.

It didn't occur to me that I would need to say that. Oh well.

The definition of “age” <165> aion, doesn’t include all the restrictions you have, so naturally I have to ask about these things.

Okay, cool. Awesome.

Here’s what Stong’s says …

an age, a cycle (of time), especially of the present age as contrasted with the future age, and of one of a series of ages stretching to infinity.

Yep. Anyway, now you know how I see it...I hope.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I'm jumping in without first reading the various replies.



Just to hoist my colours someway up the mast I guess that I'm fairly well in concord with what you call "the pre-trib adherents".

Okay, so do you have any thoughts on what I said in my original post?

 

[Timtofly]

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery;

Most of what Paul taught was "a mystery".

Paul uses that word like you use "spiritually discerned". Many here constantly state their opinion that other posters are not spiritually discerned.

Paul is just nice about his points; that some may have never heard what he was saying prior to the point he was giving the information.

Paul is revealing something from the Holy Spirit that may or may not be new to those reading or listening to him.

Even Jesus used that term on occasion to show how far the theology of His day, had been removed from the Word of God.

"And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:"

God can also purposely hide the truth in plain sight in Scripture, and only those who allow the Holy Spirit to work in them can see the mystery revealed.

All of what Paul wrote could be a mystery to many, because they will never get it. That does not mean they are not saved. Even the Pharisees understood the Parables, and they got mad at Jesus.

Whoever understands what Paul wrote would no longer see that as a mystery. Even though Paul pointed out he was revealing a mystery, some would still not understand what was being written.

Arguing over what specifically was a mystery and what was not a mystery, seems pointless. Many still interpret Paul with human understanding, thinking they understand the mystery, who still are wrong in their interpretation, obviously. The thread has dozens of posts still arguing over interpretation.

 

[3 Resurrections]

You claim Matthew 24:21 the great tribulation took place in 70AD in the Roman destruction of Jerusalem, when Matthew 24:29-31 clearly shows immediately after this tribulation the second coming takes place a "Future" event unfulfilled

Once Again Question: Do you see a 2,000 gap anywhere between Matthew 24:21 & Matthew 24:29?

Why do you run from this question, that fully exposes the false teaching of a 70AD fulfillment of Matthew 24:21?

Of course, there is no 2,000 year gap anywhere between Matthew 24:21 and Matthew 24:29. The Great Tribulation which was promised to fall on those in Judea and Jerusalem in that first-century generation was the same generation who also experienced the bodily return of Christ "IMMEDIATELY AFTER the tribulation of those days". All that means is that the second coming bodily return of Christ is ancient history by now, ever since AD 70.

We are currently awaiting Christ's next bodily coming to earth for the final bodily resurrection and judgment at the close of fallen mankind's history on this planet. There is not a single verse in scripture that says Christ is limited to one return only to this planet to gather His resurrected saints to Himself. Instead, there are texts which show that Christ returns twice to "harvest" the bodies of His saints out of the ground - not just one return.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Ah, good one! Yes, I agree that it's about the rapture. And, obviously this was taught well before 1st Corinthians was written. In keeping my promise not to argue about this, I will just say that we have to consider whether this is talking about us being brought to heaven or Jesus bringing heaven to us (new heaven = heaven brought to us). I'll say no more unless you decide that you want to discuss it more.

I believe it is taking the church to heaven. It talaks of Him going and coming and receiving us to Himself.

Also in Rev. 19 we see the marriage of the church to Jesus take place in heaven before He returns.

19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Then we return with Jesus to earth for teh marriage supper which could last the entire Millenium.

This follows perfectly with the Jewish wedding system.

https://arielcontent.org/dcs/pdf/mbs113m.pdf

 

[Truth7t7]

All that means is that the second coming bodily return of Christ is ancient history by now, ever since AD 70.

Those who teach Jesus has already returned bodily are called "Full Preterist" with this teaching being false and complete heresy IMHO