Leaders That Don't Support Good Works or Overcoming Sin

[Wynona]

As a teenage Christian, I couldn't always buy books. So I looked up the authors online. I found sermons by the late Dr. Tim Keller on line. His apologetics were very helpful to me as a new Christian.

The calvinist flavor of his theology made sense to me too. I began to listen to more "New Calvinist" preachers like Mark Driscoll, Steve Brown, and John Piper.

They often said great things Id agree with today. But they also taught me the idea that Christianity was better if I stopped trying so hard. Stopped being religious. "Rested in God's grace and the finished work of the cross."

Christianity was not about works in any way, I concluded. It was about our being accepted by faith in Christ.

In my heart I wanted to live a life that pleased the Lord. But I often struggled with vanity, pride, and lust, not seeming to be able to shake them. Id listen to Steve Brown for comfort and Paul Washer for conviction.

I began repeating phrases from Brown like" the only way we stop sinning is if we realize that if we never stop sinning, God will still love us."

It comforted me. I knew I would never be able to shake the sin and bouts of anger in my life.

Then, I joined a Christian forum (not this one) and it was a war zone. One camp shouted the virtues of eternal security. The other warned of a loss of salvation from disobedience. I tired of being on the fence so I did something crazy....

I reread the Bible cover to cover with no assumptions about what it would teach. I was shocked to see so many verses aimed at believers about obedience, shipwrecked faith, and becoming dead indeed to sin. I was horrified that no church had ever mentioned hardly any of those verses.

My trust in sermon media, churches, devotionals, and Christian culture never recovered.

They could have told me we are supposed to overcome sin and how to do it. Instead they catered to my flesh instead of equipping me to crucify it. They could have told me that the fear of the Lord was a good thing. They could have said a lot of things that would have led me to the God pleasing ways and clear conscience I craved.

I only trust Scripture now. I saw a good church an hour away. But right now---my husband and I stay in Scripture daily, discussing it, praying it, practicing to obey Jesus. Yes, obey Jesus, not just believe.

We don't need popular sayings about the faith. We need Scripture in context. We need to hear it in our ears. Put the microwave devotional down. Pick up the Bible. Read it out loud, play it on audio. Preferably not a new translation.

 

[Lambano]

" the only way we stop sinning is if we realize that if we never stop sinning, God will still love us."

Here's a better Steve Brown quote: "Trust in God's sovereignty like Spurgeon. 'Move it' like Wesley." John Wesley exhorted his congregations to strive against sin, and taught that it was possible with God's working in the believer's life to completely overcome sin in this life, though he never claimed that he had reached that point himself.

I don't know much about Driscoll; I hear he's weird and cusses a lot. From what I've read of Piper's work, I'm pretty sure he'd take the Calvinist party line that a believer whose life is characterized by persistent sin has no reason to be confident that he's one of the Elect. (That's a pretty close paraphrase of a John MacArthur quote, another "New Calvinist" preacher.)

So, what happens when after thirty years you find you STILL have pride, vanity, lust, and bouts of anger inside you? (And maybe a few new sins that popped up under evolving circumstances of life.) It's been a while since I thought of our banned Calvinist brother who couldn't beat his addictions, so he just quit trying and accepted his fate, that he was predestined for Hell. I promised I'd pray for him; I'd better continue to keep that promise.

I think it depends on the character of the individual. I've observed that some people respond better when they can trust that God loves them. Others need a swift kick in the butt. Sometimes different approaches are needed at different times of their lives. Both approaches are biblical. Use the wrong approach on the wrong person and you either get permissive grace or you end up slaughtering Jesus's lambs.

 

[Wynona]

So, what happens when after thirty years you find you STILL have pride, vanity, lust, and bouts of anger inside you? (And maybe a few new sins that popped up under evolving circumstances of life.) It's been a while since I thought of our banned Calvinist brother @Lifelong_sinner who couldn't beat his addictions, so he just quit trying and accepted his fate, that he was predestined for Hell. I promised I'd pray for him; I'd better continue to keep that promise.

Abide in Christ. Keep hearing Scripture out loud in your ears until it transforms you and sets you free. Jesus said if His words abide in us, we can stop being slaves to sin.

I was addicted to porn. I was only able to stop by listening to 1 John, 1 Peter, and James until that sinful stronghold was broken.

I do not think willpower would have stopped it. Its not "self-effort". It's abiding in Christ. Its his power that breaks chains.

But first we have to believe the chains can be broken. If all were told is that we never stop sinning, we won't have the faith to even abide in Christ.

I think it depends on the character of the individual. I've observed that some people respond better when they can trust that God loves them. Others need a swift kick in the butt. Sometimes different approaches are needed at different times of their lives. Both approaches are biblical. Use the wrong approach on the wrong person and you either get permissive grace or you end up slaughtering Jesus's lambs.

Definitely true as long as the advice is true. Good thought. Some save with compassion, others with fear. I was definitely hyper graced to death. I wanted to hear both sides. I feel betrayed that I never did before reading the Bible for myself.

 

[Behold]

They often said great things Id agree with today. But they also taught me the idea that Christianity was better if I stopped trying so hard. Stopped being religious.

A "religious" Christian is trying to do good works, to try to make certain that by doing them, they hope they can go to heaven when they die.

So, this one, is not actually trusting in Christ.. they are trusting in their self effort.

whereas... the true understanding of Discipleship, is that the born again are to always do good, always work the good works, but not to try to stay saved, but because they understand that they are already saved.

So, the Religious mind says....>>"yeah, Jesus started my Salvation, but now let me work work work, to try to complete it".

Whereas the Christian who has the right mind of Faith, understands.... "i am to present my body as a living Sacrifice to God", because i am already saved.

 

[Episkopos]

A "religious" Christian is trying to do good works,

Good works are good, not bad as you suggest. Otherwise the bible would call them, bad works ...or dead works.

to try to make certain that by doing them, they hope they can go to heaven when they die.

You are heavily influenced by Islam. There is no going to heaven when you are dead...only when you are alive. Seek first the kingdom...now.

So, this one, is not actually trusting in Christ.. they are trusting in their self effort.

No. You are misrepresenting an obedience to Christ. If a man says...Jesus says to forgive, so I'll forgive. You assume the worst possible motive on others. Does God want people to listen to Him? Of course. Then, God decides if that merits being called righteous or not.

Obedience IS NOT wrong. And self-effort is NOT WRONG. The sin lies in calling something, something it is not. Self-effort is all you have to obey with until you are empowered by the Spirit to walk as Jesus walked. Don't despise the day of small beginnings.

What you espouse is A LOT WORSE than self-effort. You are advocating a religious self-justification for having certain beliefs.

whereas... the true understanding of Discipleship, is that the born again are to always do good, always work the good works, but not to try to stay saved, but because they understand that they are already saved.

So then self-effort is good if you attach the "born-again" label to it? Basically two standards for the same things? This is a confusion that doesn't take into account two levels of walk...each with its own standard of righteousness.

So, the Religious mind says....>>"yeah, Jesus started my Salvation, but now let me work work work, to try to complete it".

Work as in praying, seeking, obeying??? You are very confused in this and other things. Paul was speaking about works of the law...Judaism.

Whereas the Christian who has the right mind of Faith, understands.... "i am to present my body as a living Sacrifice to God", because i am already saved.

One can present oneself as a sacrifice to God regardless of status. It is our reasonable service as a human being.

Big secret alert: We only get into the higher walk under the covering of Christ when we offer ourselves up as a living sacrifice. (That I may be found IN Him not having my own righteousness.)

 

[Behold]

Good works are good, not bad as you suggest.

I called them "good works", but the issue is, .. does the person believe that by doing them, they are keeping themselves saved.

If that is their motive, or, if they believe that doing good works, makes them "righteous", then in both cases the person, has no understanding of the Cross of Christ or "Justification by faith">.

You are heavily influenced by Islam. There is no going to heaven when you are dead...

I despise "islam". Its one of the 3 worst "doctrines of devils" ever created by the Devil, with "cult of the Virgin" being #2, and "Calvinism" being #3.


Listen..., the born again are " seated in heavenly places" right now, "In Christ".

I would not expect you to realize this, or understand it.... @Episkopos

No. You are misrepresenting an obedience to Christ

Here is how Paul describes obedience to Christ and to God. = "Present your body, as a living sacrifice to God, as your reasonable service'.

"Service'... this is not Salvation......its the service of it.., which is why the real Christian who understands this.... does good deeds all the time.

Obedience IS NOT wrong.

"Obedience is better then Sacrifice" the NT teaches, yet neither will be accepted by God, to accept you.

A.) See the Cross of Christ, for "eternal acceptance", based on forgiveness of all sin..

You are advocating a religious self-justification for having certain beliefs.

The only justification God offers that a sinner can have for free.... is to be redeemed by Jesus's Blood and Death, on the Cross.

Welcome to : God's Salvation.

Its a "Gift".

So then self-effort is good if you attach the "born-again" label to it?

Self effort is good, regarding Christianity, if the motive is not to try to save yourself.

Work as in praying, seeking, obeying???

Im confident In Jesus's finished work on the Cross as God's Gift of Salvation.

I have it, for quite a while now.

One can present oneself as a sacrifice to God regardless of status.

Yes, unbelievers do that a lot, as their Religion is to try to be like God or to reach God.

And, its good to serve God, = with the understanding that the born again are not to do that to try to become righteous, or stay saved.

 

[Episkopos]

I called them "good works", but the issue is, .. does the person believe that by doing them, they are keeping themselves saved.

In whose mind? You have an artificial grasp of what constitutes victory in Christ. Those who walk in the higher kingdom walk experience victory....overcoming as Jesus overcame.

If that is their motive, or, if they believe that doing good works, makes them "righteous", then in both cases the person, has no understanding of the Cross of Christ or "Justification by faith">.

Agreed...if that is their motive. But only God judges the heart. It isn't right for you to judge the motives of another. That is your self-righteous attitude at wok.

I despise "islam". Its one of the 3 worst "doctrines of devils" ever created by the Devil, with "cult of the Virgin" being #2, and "Calvinism" being #3.

So//.What you posted, regarding my ties to "Islam"... seems heavily influenced by way too many mushroom trips, imho.

LOL. The whole heaven and hell duality is not in the bible...but in the Koran.

Listen..., the born again are " seated in heavenly places" right now, "In Christ".

No. The born again have tasted a sample of grace. But to be seated in heavenly places is a REAL PLACE where one walks in light and resurrection life. In Him is no sin. You have only a doctrinal theoretical bent...not the experience of that level of walk.

This is what I call..assuming and presuming. Calling something that isn't as if it was. As one poster says...to claim to be something before they are as if we were like God who calls things that aren't into existence.

I would not expect you to realize this, or understand it.... @Episkopos

What I don't understand is the claiming, God can hear you. Does He see you at His side?

Here is how Paul describes obedience to Christ and to God. = "Present your body, as a living sacrifice to God, as your reasonable service'.

"Service'... this is not Salvation......its the service of it.., which is why the real Christian who understands this.... does good deeds all the time.

Surrendering ourselves to God is what gets us promoted into the heavenly realm. The higher walk, full of love joy and eternal peace...a peace that is NOT like peace in the world. It is like being surrounded with love from another place...an eternal place.

"Obedience is better then Sacrifice" the NT teaches, yet neither will be accepted by God, to accept you.

This is a comparison of an outward sacrifice. But an inward sacrifice IS obedience. Think about it.

A.) See the Cross of Christ, for "eternal acceptance", based on forgiveness of all sin..

The sins that are past. There is NO ongoing forgiveness process in the bible that is not by the mercy of God. There are NO forgiveness guarantees. It depends what we do with it. Even the servant that was forgiven his large debt had that forgiveness revoked because he didn't forgive others. Forgiveness is conditional.

The cross is ONLY about sanctification. Those who are crucified with Christ enter INTO Christ who knew no sin. In Him is no sin. The biggest lie in the world is that sanctification is a "process". Those who believe that are convinced they will be sinners all their lives...and they will do so based on unbelief.

The only justification God offers that a sinner can have for free.... is to be redeemed by Jesus's Blood and Death, on the Cross.

Welcome to : God's Salvation.

Its a "Gift".

Taste and see that God is good...then come to the cross and die in order to be raised into new life IN HIm.

Self effort is good, regarding Christianity, if the motive is not to try to save yourself.

That's what I said... A selfless sacrifice is for others. Even soldiers jump on a grenade to save their friends. Most are too cowardly to do such. And they might even consider themselves to be as righteous as God IN their cowardice. What does God think?

Im confident In Jesus's finished work on the Cross as God's Gift of Salvation.

I have it, for quite a while now.

I know. But Jesus' finished work does not equal the unfinished work that God wants to accomplish in you.

Having a key and walking through the door are different steps. In Quebec we have an expression in real estate "clé en main" meaning "key in hand"...meaning...ready to go. It's all ready. But you still have to buy the house.

Yes, unbelievers do that a lot, as their Religion is to try to be like God or to reach God.

Yes, and they will fail of course unless God gives them a vision of Christ.

And, its good to serve God, = with the understanding that the born again are not to do that to try to become righteous, or stay saved.

I don't think that a person who is spiritually awakened into new life wouldn't want to serve God. But such a person can be deviated through a false apprehension and believing a lie..that stops that person from seeking to be completed in spiritual formation. Jesus is both the author (regenerator) of faith AND finisher (going to Him for the full measure of grace) of faith.

I think many have had the heavenly taste at regeneration..but few go to God to receive the grace to walk as Jesus walked..in holiness....that we may be partakers of HIS holiness. When are we to partake of Christ and His holiness? NOW! Why won't they? The cost.

Peace to you!

 

[Behold]

In whose mind? You have an artificial grasp of what constitutes victory in Christ.

"Christ always Gives me the Victory".... as... "I can do all things through Christ, which strengthens me"

LOL. The whole heaven and hell duality is not in the bible...but in the Koran.

Ive not stated anything about "hell"..

But i did state that all the born again are "In Christ' = "Seated in Heavenly places"//

No. The born again have tasted a sample of grace.

Jesus is the Grace of God, Hanging on a Cross, for the sin of the world.
All that believe in Jesus shall be saved.

"by Jesus Stripes we were healed"... we were made a partaker of His Salvation that He provided.. as God's "Gift of Salvation"/""

So, the born again become '"in Christ""", and to become this... is to become..:

1 Corinthians 1:30

30 : """ But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption"""​

What I don't understand is the claiming, God can hear you. Does He see you at His side?

Its Jesus who is "seated at the right hand of the Father, and all the born again are "In Christ"..

Surrendering ourselves to God is what gets us promoted into the heavenly realm.

Actually its being "born again" "In Christ" as "one with God".... that puts the believer into the Kingdom of God.

Jesus said, "you must be born again".... He never said you must surrender., but He did say that if you do not BELIEVE, then you shall "die in your sins".

The sins that are past.

Jesus is the "one time Eternal sacrifice for sin"...

"for sin"..

Not, some sin, or only those sins in the past, or only those you forgot to confess, again.

The cross is ONLY about sanctification.

The Cross of Christ is where the sinner meets the Forgiveness of God, as Christ's Blood and Death,.. that eternally resolves all sin and all judgement do the sinner.
This is why the CHRISTian meets God as Father, after they die, and not as eternal Judge.

finished work does not equal the unfinished work that God wants to accomplish in you.

The Born again, are "made righteous".. so, having been established as "made free from sin".. they are to now "present their body as a living sacrifice as their reasonable service"..

I don't think that a person who is spiritually awakened into new life wouldn't want to serve God.

Even tho the born again spirit has been eternally reunited to God as "born again"... it is still true that the Believer is told to "be in the world but not of it"..
So, if it was impossible for the CHRISTian, to not be "of the world" regarding mind and desires after they are born again..., then they would not be warned about it.

 

[Episkopos]

"Christ always Gives me the Victory".... as... "I can do all things through Christ, which strengthens me"

Amen. and agreed.

Ive not stated anything about "hell"..

But i did state that all the born again are "In Christ' = "Seated in Heavenly places"//

That's what people call a "positional theology" which I oppose as it is based on imagination. Spiritual warfare consists of tearing down imaginations. These things are real bro! Now, I understand that nobody likes their mind-palaces torn down. I appreciate that. But imagining something is not the same as experiencing the reality of it. That experience of being in a heavenly place gives us a testimony. But to simply name and claim only gets us rejected at the Bema seat because we will have lied. We will then be rejected into outer darkness.

Now there is a REAL entering into the heavenly walk whereby we can attest to what Paul is speaking of...ALWAYS having victory through Christ who strengthens us. Coming to Mt. Zion in the Spirit to witness God's eternal light..a light that penetrates into us..and shimmers in holiness.

Jesus is the Grace of God, Hanging on a Cross, for the sin of the world.
All that believe in Jesus shall be saved.

Agreed. But saved to what end? For glory...we join Jesus on His cross....to be raised into His life. To walk where He is. That where He is we may be also. To be found IN Him.

"by Jesus Stripes we were healed"... we were made a partaker of His Salvation that He provided.. as God's "Gift of Salvation"/""

So, the born again become '"in Christ""", and to become this... is to become..:

1 Corinthians 1:30​

​

30 : """ But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption"""​

Yes... Of God we are translated to be IN Him who knew no sin. And from there we walk in HIS holiness, HIS righteousness, His wisdom...having the mind of Christ. A mind that sees the beauty in the simplicity of a child...and of the light of eternal holiness in His love. Having a vision that is both small and great as the universe...at the same time. No need for a physical eye to refocus....but seeing all at once. In an instant...by seeing through HIS eyes...in holiness.

Its Jesus who is "seated at the right hand of the Father, and all the born again are "In Christ"..

Jesus said to John and James..are you ready to be baptized with the baptism I will undergo...in other words the COST. To be seated in heavenly places costs..yes both Jesus but also we ourselves. Otherwise we will be the only selfish people in eternity. No, the cost makes sure that we can have holiness and remain in it. To remain with God requires holiness and SELFLESSNESS. As we surrender ourselves FULLY before Him we are translated to walk in His life and Love.

Actually its being "born again" "In Christ" as "one with God".... that puts the believer into the Kingdom of God.

Oneness with God begins with regeneration, the sample of an eternal life lived in real time in the temporal world. But to remain or abide in Him...we need the cross to crucify the power of the flesh and its ingrained self-interest. The cost is our full measure for His full measure. A life for a life. When we pay with our life...we get a life IN a life, an eye IN an eye..as the Torah really says in Hebrew (Deut. 19:21).

Jesus said, "you must be born again".... He never said you must surrender.,

Unless we are regenerated we cannot see or enter into a spiritual place. Being born of the Spirit doesn't guarantee we will be perfected in the Spirit...in fact very few will.

it's like saying that unless you are born of a woman you cannot become a billionaire.

Jesus was showing that that which is born of the flesh is carnal...but that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit.

but He did say that if you do not BELIEVE, then you shall "die in your sins".

Yes, to the Jews. Jesus forgave the Romans....but demands repentance from His own people. As the verse goes..the marks on my hands were caused by my friends. (paraphrasing)

Jesus is the "one time Eternal sacrifice for sin"...

"for sin"..

What are we looking for...forgiveness for sins we can't stop doing...or a liberation from sin? The cross covers the whole world not just believers. But for believers the cross is there for US to die on...to be liberated (through obedience to the gospel) into life IN Christ.

Not, some sin, or only those sins in the past, or only those you forgot to confess, again.

The whole sin nature is crucified for the disciple. Not individual sins. When we fail grace and fall from the higher walk in holiness...we have an advocate...Jesus Christ...to defend our foolishness and perhaps give us another try at the training in Christ.

How many tries do we get? I have no idea.

The Cross of Christ is where the sinner meets the Forgiveness of God, as Christ's Blood and Death,.. that eternally resolves all sin and all judgement do the sinner.

The Bema seat does that...if the disciple is found IN Christ. But the cross is about living with a holy God...sanctifying a people for His name.

This is why the CHRISTian meets God as Father, after they die, and not as eternal Judge.

We can meet Him now. Hearing His voice...feeling His love. I have never seen the Father,...but Jesus...YES! ;)

The Born again, are "made righteous".. so, having been established as "made free from sin".. they are to now "present their body as a living sacrifice as their reasonable service"..

Both before and after. Our full sacrifice is what gets us into the higher walk. You will find Me when you seek Me with ALL your heart.

Even tho the born again spirit has been eternally reunited to God as "born again"...

I don't mean to disparage the day of small beginnings. But the race begins at regeneration. There are many steps to take..especially one of a full spiritual immersion to experience the power of the life to come. From there a disciple knows what the bible is about. But the truth is hidden away in intimacy, and known of those who have been accepted into the Beloved...even for a short time.

peace and blessings.

it is still true that the Believer is told to "be in the world but not of it"..
So, if it was impossible for the CHRISTian, to not be "of the world" regarding mind and desires after they are born again..., then they would not be warned about it.

Amen.

 

[Lambano]

I do not think willpower would have stopped it. It's not "self-effort". It's abiding in Christ. It's his power that breaks chains.

I see statements like this a lot on these internet forums, and frankly it sounds almost exactly like, "Stop trying so hard. Stop being religious. Rest in God's grace and the finished work of the cross." What do you see is the difference?

1 John exhorts believers to overcome sin. Twenty-three times by my count. Definitely a major theme of the letter and it's stated purpose. How do you see it? Is there some human effort or response required?

 

[Behold]

Amen. and agreed.


That's what people call a "positional theology" which I oppose as it is based on imagination.

Being born again IS spiritually positional, as it produces literal spiritual unity with God, within the KOG.

The born again are now joined to God and Christ, literally.

to witness God's eternal light..a light that penetrates into us..and shimmers in holiness.

Christianity... is God living His Life in united spirituality within the believer.
What causes this "one with God" "in Christ"?

A.) The Holy Spirit of God births the believers spirit into God's Spirit.

= "one with God".. "In Christ".

Agreed. But saved to what end? For glory..

God offers His "gift of salvation" because "God is love" and "For God so loved the world" He provided Jesus on The Cross so that we can become His eternal (born again) family.

Yes... Of God we are translated to be IN Him who knew no sin

For a sinner to become "translated" into God's Spirit as "in Christ".... = God had to provide the means whereby the Sinner could become sinless, as otherwise God could not join them Spiritually.
This is one of the glaring heresies of Hyper-Calvinism, as it falsely teaches that God gives you the birth in the Spirit before God has dealt with your sin... and that is an incredible lie that is teaching that God Joins Himself to sin..
A.) Not Possible.

God can't join Himself to sin... so, the sinner, has to become "the righteousness of God in Christ", FIRST.... as then God can join Himself to their Spirit as "born again".

Joining God, Spiritually, is predicated upon SIN being forgiven, redeemed, purged, atoned for... .ect, ect.

Jesus said to John and James..are you ready to be baptized with the baptism I will undergo..

John was not murdered or martyred.

Oneness with God begins with regeneration, the sample of an eternal life

Eternal life is Jesus Himself..
So, He is not a "sample".
Its not a "sample" of Jesus who lives in the born again, as they have become "the temple of the Holy Spirit".

That's not a sample of eternal life.. that is existing in it, as "in Christ".. "one with God'/

Being born of the Spirit

Being born of the Spirit of God can't happen unless the believer's sin has been resolved by the Cross of Christ., for eternity.

Yes, to the Jews. Jesus forgave the Romans...

Acts 2:36 teaches that the Jews crucified their Messiah.

What are we looking for...forgiveness for sins we can't stop doing...or a liberation from sin?

Redemption (forgiveness) of Sin is found as Christ on The Cross, and the power to overcome sin, is found as : "Christ always gives me the Victory", "i can do all things through Christ".

The whole sin nature is crucified for the disciple. Not individual sins.

If Jesus has not become "the one time eternal sacrifice "" for the Believer, then the person is still in their sin, and have not yet become born again.

The Bema seat does that..

Being born again is the reason a Christian goes to the bema seat and not the White Throne Judgment.

Our full sacrifice is what gets us into the higher walk. You will find Me when you seek Me with ALL your heart.

Being born again (instantly)... happens to a sinner who has come to God with faith in Christ.

And now...to walk the walk of Real Faith, subsequent to receiving Salvation.... is all done in the Spirit, by attaining the Knowledge of God.

"work out your Salvation" is not to try to be like Jesus......(Acting)..........its to come to the full revelation of who the born again have become "in Christ", as the "renewed mind".

. But the race begins at regeneration. There are many steps to take..

Regeneration (born again) instantly creates the Son/Daughter., ("in Christ".)... so that is a permanent status... as "Heir of God" and "Joint Heir with Jesus".
However, each now has a course, a life to live for God, and this "baby" discipleship will remain in Hebrews 6:1.. .unless the Christian does exactly what Hebrews 13:9 says to do with their "heart".

 

[Lambano]

Abide in Christ.

A long time ago on the now-defunct Ekklesia forum, I started a thread called, "'In Christ': Metaphorical or Metaphysical?, thinking particularly of Galatians 3:28 (There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.) When Paul uses the term "in Christ", does he mean our identity as Jesus's people (similar to our identification with our country as Americans), or is there a very real metaphysical union with Christ? Both? Something else?

What does being "in Christ" mean to you?

 

[Lambano]

I was addicted to porn. I was only able to stop by listening to 1 John, 1 Peter, and James until that sinful stronghold was broken.

I praise God for what He's done in your life. But I've also known people who've read their Bibles over and over and prayed for God to release them from the shackles of narcotic addictions, people with besetting sins, gay people who've begged God to straighten them out, all of them knowing that God is quite capable of freeing them, and yet for whatever reason, God sovereignly chooses to respond with "No" (or maybe "Not Yet"). And I have no explanation why, and I don't have any magic formula that works every time.

Sometimes the only answer is, "My grace is sufficient for thee."

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I despise "islam". Its one of the 3 worst "doctrines of devils" ever created by the Devil, with "cult of the Virgin" being #2, and "Calvinism" being #3.


Listen..., the born again are " seated in heavenly places" right now, "In Christ".

I would not expect you to realize this, or understand it.... @Episkopos

And yet you accuse them and fail miserably to show from God why they would be evil.

I agree with #'s 1&2 but you have proven yourself a fraud in defaming what is colloquially called TULIP.

Until you defend your accusations with God instead of you ropinions, you are nothing more than a loud voice that is equivalent to sounding brass or a tinkling cymbal!

 

[Wynona]

I see nice, religious statements like this a lot on these internet forums, and frankly it sounds almost exactly like, "Stop trying so hard. Stop being religious. Rest in God's grace and the finished work of the cross." What do you see is the difference?

1 John exhorts believers to overcome sin. How do you see it? Is there some human effort or response required?

I could use Scripture instead of generalizing, I just feel like people disengage if I use too much.

I do think we need effort to overcome sin. But it's not just about willing yourself to stop sinning. It's about staying in the Bible till you know it and it sets you free. It's about love---a practical love that meets needs. If we do these things, we can reach a point where we never stumble.

 

[Lambano]

It's about love---a practical love that meets needs.

Can you elaborate on this, please?

 

[Wynona]

Praise God! But I've also known people who've read their Bibles over and over and prayed for God to release them from the shackles of narcotic addictions, people with besetting sins, gay people who've begged God to straighten them out, all of them knowing that God is quite capable of freeing them, and yet for whatever reason, God sovereignly chooses to respond with "No" (or maybe "Not Yet"). And I have no explanation why, and I don't have any magic formula that works every time.

Sometimes the only answer is, "My grace is sufficient for thee."

You know people who read the bible over and over? Im sincerely happy.

God can definitely drop peoples sins overnight. But for most people its a long process where we have to continue sowing to the Spirit.

My problem is that when we don't believe Jesus and believe all the folks telling us we can't stop sinning---we won't even have the faith to try. And yes, we must try. We must resist. It's not automatic. God's gift of salvation does not force us to then sow to the Spirit.

By sowing to the Spirit, I mean keeping your mind set on things above at all times. Even if it means cutting out some nice rnb music or whatever thing that gets you out of the Spirit.

 

[Episkopos]

Being born again IS spiritually positional, as it produces literal spiritual unity with God, within the KOG.

Here is the crux of the issue. Do we need an active imagination to be Christian where things need to be assumed or presumed....or...are we to tear down imaginations and anything that exalts itself above an actual knowledge of God? I don't know how many are following this thread ...but I think there is an incredible gulf or chasm between the two "positions". What say you?

 

[Wynona]

Can you elaborate on this, please?

Yes. Im thinking of 1 John.

1 John 3:17-19
17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.

 

[Wynona]

Ill take a risk here...I learned so many things about obeying Jesus from Scripture---keeping busy at home for my family, meeting people's needs for food and help as Im able, staying in the Bible, prayer, nit complaining at all etc...

By the time I am learning to do all that, I simply didn't have time to sin...to gossip...or look up bad things online that day.

Its not just about not sinning. Its about pursuing righteousness and becoming a slave to it through faith in Christ.