Unethical treatment of LGBTQ humans / Understanding LGBTQ - 101

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St. SteVen

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Good point, another question, how is it gender is not given at birth but sexual orientation is?
That's an interesting question. Welcome to the forum and this topic.

I gave these two definitions (among several) in the OP. (Opening Post #1)
Do these apply to what you are asking?

Gender Identity: In most cases gender is determined by birth sex.
But as we have all seen, hormonal imbalances can give us a broad range of maleness and femaleness.
There are very masculine females and very feminine males. and everything in between.

Sexual Orientation: Attraction to opposite sex, or same-sex partners.

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Arthur81

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Since the changes that took place since the end of the first century A.D. strayed from the teachings of Yeshua and His apostles, I personally find that there is no existing creed that mirrors the teachings of Yeshua and those He sent to deliver His words.

I acknowledge that my learning comes from God after I have searched the scriptures (which requires examining manuscripts in Hebrew and Greek as well as English) to determine variations in translations. There are a large number of mistranslated words, but even they can be overcome by letting the rest of scripture provide understanding. Believing that scripture is "God-breathed" means that there are no contradictions, but in English translations; there are.

The phrase "know your bible" involves so much more than simply reading your chosen translation. The search for truth is something that a follower of Yeshua requires efforts that many never exert. We tend to be lazy and simply read commentaries as if that person writing them speaks for God.

So, I hold to no creed written by man. It makes me unpopular with those who do.
You are saying that there is no creed, confession or catechism in all of church history which you believe closely represents the truth of God's word?
 

Spyder

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You are saying that there is no creed, confession or catechism in all of church history which you believe closely represents the truth of God's word?
Closely is not good enough. Even Satan sways the sheep with mostly-true statements.
 
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St. SteVen

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Closely is not good enough. Even Satan sways the sheep with mostly-true statements.
This is a bit troubling.
The Creeds represent the minimum essentials of doctrine for the Christian faith.

Like you (and many others) I don't agree with any creed 100% (and there is also the questions of interpretation and misunderstanding) But... they do represent an attempt to codify what we believe essentially.

Perhaps the binary approach to creeds (on/off) is not the best way to look at them?

] cc: @Arthur81
 
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Jack

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I'm still trying to help Christians understand this COMPLEX issue that they have reduced to a knee-jerk reaction.
Not complex at all!

Romans 1:26-27
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.
27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful,
 

BarneyFife

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I'm still trying to help Christians understand this COMPLEX issue that they have reduced to a knee-jerk reaction.

I don't think the issue is nearly as complex as it is just plain difficult for people to deal with, because so many people have been able to exist in a kind of bubble for so long without being confronted with it in such a manner as would require them to face it.

I remember living in San Diego in the late '70s and hearing guys at school talking about gay bodybuilders who hung out in Balboa Park and walked around holding hands. You can probably just imagine the disbelief and scoffing that these claims were met with. L.A., maybe, but San Diego? "No way," we thought.

One weekend my friend across the street and I decided to make Balboa Park another item on our "Been There, Done That" list and headed south on our ten-speeds. When we got there, sure enough, the first thing to catch our eyes was a couple of jacked, long-haired guys in speedos walking along the sidewalk hand-in-hand. We were so creeped out by this that we left right after we watched them chasing down some other kids who had decided to throw their food at them (maybe they thought they were starving?). We never said anything about it to each other. I think he was as horrified as I was.

And I never encountered any gay people (at least, of which I was aware) one-on-one, except for this one guy named Jamie that had a shiny new Trans Am and girls all around him all the time who had no time for me whatsoever (I went with two of his girl friends for a while).

That is, until I joined the Air Force. And it was weird, because the way you encountered gay fellas in the Air Force in the early '80s was in straightforward, never-changing pattern that went exactly like this:

1) Someone would say "I hear that So-and-so is queer."

2) If you said you didn't know the person, someone would point them out to you within the next week.

3) 2 to 3 weeks after first hearing that the person was gay, they would simply disappear, quite unceremoniously.

For 4 years this ritual played out before my eyes without fail or deviation.

I just saw a news segment a few days ago about the military finally beginning to upgrade the discharge status of many of these folks to "Honorable."

You could say I lived in a bubble.

But I have to say that the more gross public displays of affection and even trashy talk and innuendo have never sit well with me, regardless of the various possible configurations (not sure exactly how this matters). But I must admit that a greeting/goodbye-type kiss between sexually aberrant folks is uncomfortable for me to watch.

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St. SteVen

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I don't think the issue is nearly as complex as it is just plain difficult for people to deal with, because so many people have been able to exist in a kind of bubble for so long without being confronted with it in such a manner as would require them to face it.
Good post, thanks.
The issue came up in my youth as well. Boys were accused of being queer or "a fem" if they weren't masculine enough. It wasn't until much later in life that I encountered men that I suspected were gay because of their overtly gay behavior. (flaming fag)

And we could certainly be revolted by it. But... what should be the position of the church, and of us as Christians? Did Jesus pay the death penalty for everyone except them? Do we require anyone to clean up their act before being welcome at church? Do we only allow the repentant through the doors? How should we respond? WWJD with LGBTQ?


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Spyder

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Perhaps the binary approach to creeds (on/off) is not the best way to look at them?
I'll put it this way: mankind took the path of Yeshua beginning in the first century AD as announced by the Apostles, but was not happy with those teachings. Immediately they interpreted and manipulated those passages.

Out of those actions came sects who redefined those letters and added their human perspectives. There were Gnosticsm, Ebionism and Marcionism along with the Montanists (a 2nd century movement founded by self-proclaimed prophet, Montanus who said he received messages directly from God); the Arianists (who kept the ideas of the Gnostics who claimed that Christ is a divine being); and the Monarchianists. There were also groups like the Sethians and Valentinians.

There is only one creed to follow, and that one is the one given to the Christian by the Spirit of Yahweh. But, instead of the devoted study of scripture and asking God for truth, we find a later creed developed by men that we like and claim it is truth. As soon as we do that, scripture study is handicapped by our own lack of searching any longer.

I have relatively few theological convictions as God has given me only those few. The rest of my thoughts are just notes on sticky pads awaiting verification by Yahweh. I still discuss them with others and look for views to add for further understanding. I don't need creeds written by conventions as I have no need that man teach me since I look to God for those convictions that firm my beliefs.

I think I will always be a "work in progress."
 

St. SteVen

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I'll put it this way: mankind took the path of Yeshua beginning in the first century AD as announced by the Apostles, but was not happy with those teachings. Immediately they interpreted and manipulated those passages.
As I understand it, the Creeds were created to codify what we believe. Made to rein in the problem of misunderstanding the scriptures.

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amadeus

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I think I will always be a "work in progress."
Until you have "finished" your course:
2ti 4:6For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
2ti 4:7I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
 
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amadeus

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St. SteVen said:
As I understand it, the Creeds were created to codify what we believe. Made to rein in the problem of misunderstanding the scriptures.

Yes, good point. Same with the Bible itself.

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St. SteVen said:
As I understand it, the Creeds were created to codify what we believe. Made to rein in the problem of misunderstanding the scriptures.

Yes, good point. Same with the Bible itself.

/
Aye... the creed from the Bible or the Bible from the creed? What has man done with what God has provided?
Ge 1:31And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good...
How long before it was that "every thing" was no longer "very good"? What hath man done? What is man doing?
 
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St. SteVen

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Aye... the creed from the Bible or the Bible from the creed?
Good question.
As I understand it, there was so much disagreement about what the Bible meant that it need to be codified into an understandable short form. (creed)

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amadeus

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Good question.
As I understand it, there was so much disagreement about what the Bible meant that it need to be codified into an understandable short form. (creed)

]
And for anyone who could not or would not agree with all points of the code... are they then condemned to darkness... are they lost without hope? Oh me!
 
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th1b.taylor

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To begin, I, having lived on both sides of this issue, am qualified to speak. It is a Life Style Choice and the modern perversion of calling them Gay is simple wishfulness. Gay, throughout my life has meant happy, not scared nor terrified. They, like all sinners, are condemned to eternal damnation short of Life Style Change.
 

St. SteVen

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To begin, I, having lived on both sides of this issue, am qualified to speak. It is a Life Style Choice and the modern perversion of calling them Gay is simple wishfulness. Gay, throughout my life has meant happy, not scared nor terrified. They, like all sinners, are condemned to eternal damnation short of Life Style Change.
Could you talk about when you became aware of same-sex attraction? And the anxiety about coming out? If any?

Do you feel the church deals with this subject properly?

]
 

Phoneman777

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I'm still trying to help Christians understand this COMPLEX issue that they have reduced to a knee-jerk reaction.
Notice the term "LGBTQ humans" in the topic title. I need to remind Christians that these people are human. - Sigh. :(
Because they are typically treated by Christians as subhuman.

In my previous topic, WWJD with LGBTQ, I tried to inform forum members about what I knew about the subject.
--- If you wonder where I am coming from, that's a good place to start. ---

The level of ignorance on this subject is substantial.
And more than that, the level of aggression toward those humans with these issues.
And EVEN more than that, the aggression toward anyone, like myself who would DARE
to stand up to defend these precious ones that Jesus gave his life for.
Recently I have been accused of being a "homo" (I'm not) and for "lying" (I didn't) about being a Christian (in Christ). - Sigh. :(

Therefore, the Ethics & Morality Forum seemed appropriate. This has become an issue of Ethics & Morality.

Understanding LGBTQ - 101 / Terminology:
(note: we don't need to AGREE with these terms, but we do need to understand them)
I'm not an expert by any stretch; but this is what I have learned to date.

Birth Sex: The sex/gender you were born with.
Determined by the presence of male or female genitalia.
A small percentage are born with dual genitalia (asexual) or genitalia abnormalities.
See "Gender Assigned at Birth" below.

Gender Assigned at Birth: Now part of the paperwork doctors are required to fill out.
Allowing for parents to assign Non-Binary gender on the birth certificate.
Previously this was reserved for doctors and parents (hopefully) in cases of
dual genitalia (asexual) or genitalia abnormalities. (this subject is new to me)

Gender Identity: In most cases gender is determined by birth sex.
But as we have all seen, hormonal imbalances can give us a broad range of maleness and femaleness.
There are very masculine females and very feminine males. and everything in between.
See Gender Roles and Gender Dysphoria below.

Gender Roles: We see early signs of children gravitating toward gender specific interests.
Typically girls play with dolls and boys prefer trucks. But not always. Happens as early as 3 to 5 years.
We have seen a lot of evening out in this area. Opportunities for women in typically male roles.
Things have gone in the other direction as well. With more and more stay-at-home Dads.

Gender Dysphoria: The situation where a birth sex male feels that they are a female in a male body.
Or a birth sex female feels that they are a male in a female body. Usually realized in adolescence.
However, some children as young as 3 to 5 years old are acting on strong urges to opposite gender behavior.
Unfortunate, this has been OVER-STRESSED in recent years to epidemic proportions.
Gender identity is being pushed on anyone with a hormonal balance in either direction.
And has become popular in teen culture to pursue gender identity opposite their birth sex.

Transgender: A range of reactions to gender dysphoria. Manifesting in anything from
clothing and hair style preferences and name change to gender reassignment surgery.

Sexual Orientation: Attraction to opposite sex, or same-sex partners.
Note: Transgenderism does NOT automatically effect a change in sexual orientation.

Monogamous Relationships:
A couple in a lifetime commitment to each other regardless of sexual orientation.

Again, we don't need to AGREE with these terms, but we do need to UNDERSTAND them
in order to have any meaningful relationships with LGBTQ humans.


Discussion questions:
Please use the terminology laid about above in the discussion, thanks.

1) Were LGBTQ humans created in the image of God?
2) Does God love LGBTQ humans?
3) Did Jesus die to pay the death penalty for LGBTQ humans?
4) Has the church recognized these factors?
5) Has the church acted accordingly?
6) What is your church, or fellowship, doing about this issue?
7) What can you do personally to grapple with this issue?

/
Unethical treatment? Have you lost your flippin mind? Are you really buying into the whole "gays are so oppresssssssssed" garbage?

Listen, rainbow people enjoy lopsided protection and occupation of the top demographics of society:

well educated
financially successful
economically independent
protected on the job
protected class in public sector
protected class in the private sector
protections extending into the church
rainbow month
rainbow days scattered throughout the calendar
transgender story hour
transgender cabaret kids shows
American flags replaced with rainbow flags in school classrooms
rapes/negligent fatalities of adopted kids by rainbow people covered up in the Fake News
Remember how authorities refused to release the manifesto of the murderous Nashville rainbow freak?
Remember how the same media incessantly calling for Trump's tax returns made zero demands for it?


They're shoving rainbow ideology down our throats and you have the nerve to talk about rainbow oppression? More like "rainbow aggression" - right or wrong?
 

St. SteVen

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Unethical treatment? Have you lost your flippin mind? Are you really buying into the whole "gays are so oppresssssssssed" garbage?
They have (and should) protection from discrimination. The same protect we religious people enjoy.

Listen, rainbow people enjoy lopsided protection and occupation of the top demographics of society:

well educated
financially successful
economically independent
protected on the job
protected class in public sector
protected class in the private sector
protections extending into the church
rainbow month
rainbow days scattered throughout the calendar
transgender story hour
transgender cabaret kids shows
American flags replaced with rainbow flags in school classrooms
rapes/negligent fatalities of adopted kids by rainbow people covered up in the Fake News
Remember how authorities refused to release the manifesto of the murderous Nashville rainbow freak?
Remember how the same media incessantly calling for Trump's tax returns made zero demands for it?
Do you hate the people Jesus died for?

They're shoving rainbow ideology down our throats and you have the nerve to talk about rainbow oppression? More like "rainbow aggression" - right or wrong?
At work they are "celebrating" Pride Month. It's a bit much.
There are plenty of suspected gay and transgender coworkers.
I don't run away from this issue, I run toward it.
That doesn't mean wearing their PRIDE rainbow T-Shirt though.
I should have a choice.

To be clear, I don't support the gay lifestyle, but I do criticize the way Christians handle the subject.

Would you feel welcome at my church if I made it clear that you were considered an enemy?

]
 

St. SteVen

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--- PARODY ---

Church Greeter: Welcome to church!
Church Visitor: Thanks, my first time here.
Church Greeter: Great, we are glad you are here. One question...
Church Visitor: Uh, okay. What is it?
Church Greeter: Are you LGBTQIA+ ?
Church Visitor: Um... that's not one thing, that's at least seven things. ???
Church Greeter: We just ask that you leave that at the door when you enter this holy place.
Church Visitor: Seriously?
Church Greeter: Yes, the Bible tells us that those things are evil, we want no evil here.
Church Visitor: You do know that there is a HUGE difference between LGBQ and TIA, right?
Church Greeter: Nope, all one thing to us. Sinful, very sinful.
Church Visitor: You can argue that LGBQ is not genetic, but clearly TIA are genetic.
Church Greeter: Sorry, I'm not studied in these things.
Church Visitor: Obviously.
Church Greeter: Are you LGBTQIA+, or not?
Church Visitor: I'm pretty sure this isn't going to work. Goodbye.

Indeed. What's wrong with this picture?

]