What is the purpose of infant baptism?

[BreadOfLife]

You know that “the Church” taught what no scripture did…..baptism of infants was carried out on the assumption that a fiendish god would punish them in hell forever if someone did not sprinkle holy water on them…..what utter nonsense! And what a totally distorted and superstitious belief most Christians know that to be. And what about “limbo”……poor little souls floating about lost in the ether forever…? And you want us to take your beliefs seriously.

Ahh, yes – another load of ignorant and anti-Catholic manure.
Time to put your shovel down and listen to the facts . . .

Let’s start with your asinine claim that Catholics believe that God is a monster, looking for unbaptized souls to devour. Complete and total nonsense because you refuse to do your homework.

As for “Limbo” – it was NEVER a doctrine of the Catholic Church. It was always a simple way of attempting to reason what Scripture was silent about. The Church has never taught this as a doctrine – unlike the false non-Catholic doctrines of Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide. Or denying the nature of God of like YOUR sect.

And that was said to Peter but not to anyone else. It was Jesus’ way of letting Peter know that he was forgiven for his denial on the night of Jesus’ trial. To give him such responsibility was humbling to this man whose last memory of his Lord was a look of disappointment and bitter regret at the crowing of the rooster.
How that must have strengthened him to know that his very human failings were not held against him.

Matt. 18:15-18 was said ONLY to Peter?? Since when??

According to MY Bible – Jesus was with His disciples – not just Peter

Catholic traditions have not one iota of connection to the Christianity that Jesus preached…..if you think so, then their brain washing has accomplished a great victory for the devil.…the author of the apostasy that Jesus foretold…..you can pretend it never happened if you like, but history doesn’t lie about the blood on the hands of those who served a different god to the one taught by Christ. (Isa 1:15)

WRONG.

As Paul instructs - What the Church authoritatively teaches is on pat eith Scripture.
2 Thess 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, whether by an ORAL STATEMENT or by a LETTER from us."

Every one of those scriptures is an interpretation of what you want them to say….Paul allows us to set that straight by saying that minor children are covered under the faith of their believing parent(s). There is no need to baptize an infant who cannot make a choice for themselves until the age of accountability. Teaching was part of that journey….an infant has to progress to an age of understanding before baptism can even be considered……it is a commitment like marriage, which involves vows of obedience to all the teachings of the Christ.

Yet another idiotic foot-in-mouth moment on YOUR part . . .

Once again, you don’t understand the concept of Church Authority because YOU choose to ignore Scripture (Matt 16:16-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23, 2 Thess 2:15,).

And being a disciple of a FALSE PROHET like Charles Taze Russell – it’s laughable for YOU to instruct anyone about “corrupting” what Christ taught . .

The RCC made up all its own rules and passed them off as “scriptural“ to people kept in ignorance for centuries.
Your justifications are nothing but excuses to keep on doing what your church has done since it’s beginnings……not with the apostles, but with those who came after them and corrupted everything that Christ taught……

Yet another idiotic foot-in-mouth moment on YOUR part . . .

Once again, you don’t understand the concept of Church Authority because YOU choose to ignore Scripture (Matt 16:16-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, John 20:21-23, 2 Thess 2:15,).

And being a disciple of a FALSE PROHET like Charles Taze Russell – it’s laughable for YOU to instruct anyone about “corrupting” what Christ taught . .

As for keepng people in "ignorance for centuries" - it is precisely this type of historically-bankrupt manure that nakes me eternally-gratefil that nobody in my family has been contamiinated by your Watchtower disease.

 

[Fred J]

By highlighting bad traditions in red? How does that honor the Lord???

The one in red are the words of the Lord Jesus Christ; 'The author and finisher of our faith.'

No Sacred Traditions contradict covenantal scripture foundation.

Yes it does, these; 'teaching for doctrines the commandments of men', Jesus' very words.

The problem is re-defining "tradition into something it never meant. It seems to me, that no matter how strong a biblical case for authentic traditions is presented, the sola scripturist cannot comprehend it.

Apparently all these while, GOD's Biblical stewerds verbally and scripturally are highlighting and exposing fallacy traditions of men repeatedly.

And GOD allows them to continue, giving them grace period to repent, even when they persecute these saints who've spoken up historically.

But He said on that day of judgement He will plainly declare to them, 'Depart from Me you workers of lawlessness or iniquity.'

If any one who is wise enough to reflect on the Old Testament perceive, how history repeates itself in regards His own people who astray from HIS Word.

Again, Matthew 15:
6. ................................................... Thus have ye made the commandment of GOD of none effect by your tradition.
7. Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, ............

 

[Fred J]

Ahh, yes – another load of ignorant and anti-Catholic manure.
Time to put your shovel down and listen to the facts . . .

Murderers of saints and the 'twisters' of the word of GOD to suite your men made church, doctrines and traditions. We have no fellowship with you, for you've not repented but relentlessly continue in your fallacy.

Just to highlight even one fallacy of your men made church in the kingdom of satan and the world is possible. Ones in contrary to spiritually ours of the Holy Ghost, Holy Bible and Kingdom of GOD in Heaven.

Now, just because your elder use men and materials of this earth to errect a building upon the grave of Peter supposedly. You may even quote scriptures to support and authenticate such structure as legit fulfilling what Jesus said to Peter. Further claim your denomination is the true church of Christ on earth deludedly being wise in your own conceit.

But on the contrary such claims are fallacy and folly to us, as of 'imposters' and 'counterfeits' continuing together in the spirit of anti-Christ against us, ever since Constantine. We scripturally and in the spirit believe that all born again of water and of the Holy Ghost are rather. And ones disciple in the Holy Bible believers, are truthfully the true church of Christ off this world.

We may gather two or three even under a tree, yet we're the true church of Christ, and legitimately Jesus is in our midst. We have been built in the foundation of the Apostles and the Prophets like the Reformers and Protestant opposed to papacy.

Repent!!

 

[Aunty Jane]

Ahh, yes – another load of ignorant and anti-Catholic manure.
Time to put your shovel down and listen to the facts . . .

If I put down the shovel I’d have nothing to cover the manure with.....

Let’s start with your asinine claim that Catholics believe that God is a monster, looking for unbaptized souls to devour. Complete and total nonsense because you refuse to do your homework.

He is the same monster who roasts people in hell.....unbaptised babies included. I have done my homework.
You guys invented hell, when there is no such place. The God of the Bible would never do such a thing....

As for “Limbo” – it was NEVER a doctrine of the Catholic Church. It was always a simple way of attempting to reason what Scripture was silent about. The Church has never taught this as a doctrine – unlike the false non-Catholic doctrines of Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide. Or denying the nature of God of like YOUR sect.

Tell that to the poor people who believed that rubbish....Anyone convinced that the Bible is not the sole source of Christian beliefs has never read the Bible....or ever really had a relationship with the God of Jesus Christ.
We do not deny the nature of God but do not allow an apostate church to dictate doctrines that have no scriptural basis. You are welcome to all of them. Let’s see where they get you....

Matt. 18:15-18 was said ONLY to Peter?? Since when??

Funny, but the other scripture that emphasises that point (Matt 16:19) was made to Peter and is given as proof that he was the first pope.....you can’t have it both ways....

According to MY Bible – Jesus was with His disciples – not just Peter

Indeed he was, proving that Peter was not the first pope if all his apostles were equal in privilege and could all determine such things.
Can you tell me how many of the apostles wrote books of the Bible?

As Paul instructs - What the Church authoritatively teaches is on pat eith Scripture.
2 Thess 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, whether by an ORAL STATEMENT or by a LETTER from us."

Well, we know that there are ”traditions” and “traditions”....some were passed on by the apostles, and some were borrowed from paganism...”the church” didn’t seem to know which was which.

The Greek is “paradosis” and it means “

1. objectively, that which is delivered, the substance of a teaching”

So unless the “substance of a teaching” that is “delivered” to the people, is well founded in scripture and is not just your church’s adoption of what it wants to pass off as “Christianity”....borrowed from somewhere else.....that is a tradition I can accept.
Yours...? I’ll give them all a miss, thank you. (Matt 15:7-9)
You cannot back up a single belief with scripture that is not twisted all out of shape. You love the lies for some reason....I will never understand.

As for keepng people in "ignorance for centuries" - it is precisely this type of historically-bankrupt manure that nakes me eternally-gratefil that nobody in my family has been contamiinated by your Watchtower disease.

That is good to know, we’ll be sure to pass that message onto our leader, Jesus, who will have some disturbing news for your leader, pope what’shisname....

I guess Jesus is also still waiting for you to show us the biblical evidence for all the doctrines that you cannot substantiate by scripture.....none of you can seem to manage such an important request....

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

Murderers of saints and the 'twisters' of the word of GOD to suite your men made church, doctrines and traditions. We have no fellowship with you, for you've not repented but relentlessly continue in your fallacy.

Just to highlight even one fallacy of your men made church in the kingdom of satan and the world is possible. Ones in contrary to spiritually ours of the Holy Ghost, Holy Bible and Kingdom of GOD in Heaven.

Now, just because your elder use men and materials of this earth to errect a building upon the grave of Peter supposedly. You may even quote scriptures to support and authenticate such structure as legit fulfilling what Jesus said to Peter. Further claim your denomination is the true church of Christ on earth deludedly being wise in your own conceit.

But on the contrary such claims are fallacy and folly to us, as of 'imposters' and 'counterfeits' continuing together in the spirit of anti-Christ against us, ever since Constantine. We scripturally and in the spirit believe that all born again of water and of the Holy Ghost are rather. And ones disciple in the Holy Bible believers, are truthfully the true church of Christ off this world.

We may gather two or three even under a tree, yet we're the true church of Christ, and legitimately Jesus is in our midst. We have been built in the foundation of the Apostles and the Prophets like the Reformers and Protestant opposed to papacy.

Repent!!

What does this hate rant have anything to do with the topic? Does your 'infallible" group or church have a name? Do you even have one???
Your own reformers, Luther and Calvin, baptized infants, and supported most of the Catholic distinctives about Mary. You don't attack them. This shows you cover up reformist teachings, at the same time claim a foundation built on the reformers. You demonize the very Church that ratified the canon of Scripture. You cannot name any 2nd century martyr, yet claim them as your own. I will not waste any more my time replying to off topic self-contradictory paranoid funnymentalism. Good bye.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Murderers of saints and the 'twisters' of the word of GOD to suite your men made church, doctrines and traditions. We have no fellowship with you, for you've not repented but relentlessly continue in your fallacy.

Just to highlight even one fallacy of your men made church in the kingdom of satan and the world is possible. Ones in contrary to spiritually ours of the Holy Ghost, Holy Bible and Kingdom of GOD in Heaven.

Now, just because your elder use men and materials of this earth to errect a building upon the grave of Peter supposedly. You may even quote scriptures to support and authenticate such structure as legit fulfilling what Jesus said to Peter. Further claim your denomination is the true church of Christ on earth deludedly being wise in your own conceit.

But on the contrary such claims are fallacy and folly to us, as of 'imposters' and 'counterfeits' continuing together in the spirit of anti-Christ against us, ever since Constantine. We scripturally and in the spirit believe that all born again of water and of the Holy Ghost are rather. And ones disciple in the Holy Bible believers, are truthfully the true church of Christ off this world.

We may gather two or three even under a tree, yet we're the true church of Christ, and legitimately Jesus is in our midst. We have been built in the foundation of the Apostles and the Prophets like the Reformers and Protestant opposed to papacy.

Repent!!

An angry little tirade, indeed.
Unfortunately, your screed is just another empty attack on Christ’s Church.

Normally, one produces evidence for such a diatribe – but YOU haven’t pointed to a SINGLE thing that I said as being untrue. If you have an issue with any of the Scriptural or historical points I’ve made – then prove me wrong.

A thousand temper tantrums don’t amount to a SHRED of evidence . . .

 

[Fred J]

An angry little tirade, indeed.
Unfortunately, your screed is just another empty attack on Christ’s Church.

Haughty and wise in your own conceit as usual tagging the saints, only soon to be 'shipwrecked'.

Christ's Church??

Anti-Christ church rather, having a sinful and bound to die man seated on a earthly throne equal to Lord Jesus Christ on earth?

And where other likewise sinful who are less inferior men, are to kiss his ring when they meet him?

We're called to witness and distinguish between the spirit of truth and spirit of error, and moreover watch the signs of time.

For it is written;
"Ye shall know them by their fruits."

"Every plant, which My Heavenly FATHER hath not planted, shall be rooted up. Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch."

Normally, one produces evidence for such a diatribe – but YOU haven’t pointed to a SINGLE thing that I said as being untrue. If you have an issue with any of the Scriptural or historical points I’ve made – then prove me wrong.

A thousand temper tantrums don’t amount to a SHRED of evidence . . .

Don't flatter yourself, for our lives is like a mist here one moment, and next it's gone.

Here we go true born again readers;

Jesus proclaimed, "................, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church; ........................."

That's why the papacy desperately enslaved it's own innocent catholic people and tricked them to buy indulgence. In order and further collected money to complete the vatican city, especially to also erect a church within upon the grave of Peter. And henceforth deceitfully claim that, as though theirs is the church Christ mentioned about, and all other churches should come in subordinate to them.

For what a load of carnal centered baloney to deceive the whole world and persecute minor Bible centered churches, when Christ meant not so. Apparently Christ already sum it up the true spiritual meaning of His church in the New Testament. Which He will build using Peter as the acting 'rock' or 'corner stone' in the foundation to begin with. And from whence the rest shall follow being laid, rock by rock or stone by stone, to a completed building.

For this refers to believers alone who will make up into a church as building, and not beautiful catholic buildings made out of the materials of this earth. For it is written;

"For where two or three are gathered together in My name, there Am I in the midst of them."

This can take place in a wilderness or under a tree, or in a hut, or even in a death row prison. For is also written;

"Woman, believe Me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor ye at Jerusalem, worship the FATHER. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is for the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when true worshippers shall worship the FATHER in spirit and in truth: for the FATHER seeketh such to worship HIM. GOD is SPIRIT: and they that worship HIM must worship HIM in spirit and in truth."

There was a division between the Jews and Samaritans, each had a specific location, whether a plain or a building where they worshiped GOD. But Jesus redirect the future church from these common specific plains or buildings people used to worship GOD. Now rather through a Heavenly spiritual renewed born again sense of a true worship that pleases the FATHER in Heaven.

For the record, there's no superior nor one is in control of another, church, unless of carnal men in the making like the pagans or islam.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Haughty and wise in your own conceit as usual tagging the saints, only soon to be 'shipwrecked'.

Christ's Church??

Anti-Christ church rather, having a sinful and bound to die man seated on a earthly throne equal to Lord Jesus Christ on earth?

And where other likewise sinful who are less inferior men, are to kiss his ring when they meet him?

We're called to witness and distinguish between the spirit of truth and spirit of error, and moreover watch the signs of time.

For it is written;
"Ye shall know them by their fruits."

"Every plant, which My Heavenly FATHER hath not planted, shall be rooted up. Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch."

Jesus put Peter in charge of His flock (John 21:15-19).

He gave him the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven and told him that WHATEVER he bound or loosed on earth would be bound and loosed in Heaven (Matt. 16:18-19).

Kissing his ring is a sign of respect – not worship.
Do YOU worship your wife when you kiss her hand?

Don't flatter yourself, for our lives is like a mist here one moment, and next it's gone.

Here we go true born again readers
Jesus proclaimed, "................, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church; ........................."

That's why the papacy desperately enslaved it's own innocent catholic people and tricked them to buy indulgence. In order and further collected money to complete the vatican city, especially to also erect a church within upon the grave of Peter. And henceforth deceitfully claim that, as though theirs is the church Christ mentioned about, and all other churches should come in subordinate to them.

For what a load of carnal centered baloney to deceive the whole world and persecute minor Bible centered churches, when Christ meant not so. Apparently Christ already sum it up the true spiritual meaning of His church in the New Testament. Which He will build using Peter as the acting 'rock' or 'corner stone' in the foundation to begin with. And from whence the rest shall follow being laid, rock by rock or stone by stone, to a completed building.

This practice was NEVER sanctioned by the Church.
It was an abuse by a few men, like Johann Tetzel, who roamed the German countryside demanding money for the souls in Purgatory.

Do your homework . . .

For this refers to believers alone who will make up into a church as building, and not beautiful catholic buildings made out of the materials of this earth. For it is written;

"For where two or three are gathered together in My name, there Am I in the midst of them."

This can take place in a wilderness or under a tree, or in a hut, or even in a death row prison. For is also written;

"Woman, believe Me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor ye at Jerusalem, worship the FATHER. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is for the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when true worshippers shall worship the FATHER in spirit and in truth: for the FATHER seeketh such to worship HIM. GOD is SPIRIT: and they that worship HIM must worship HIM in spirit and in truth."

There was a division between the Jews and Samaritans, each had a specific location, whether a plain or a building where they worshiped GOD. But Jesus redirect the future church from these common specific plains or buildings people used to worship GOD. Now rather through a Heavenly spiritual renewed born again sense of a true worship that pleases the FATHER in Heaven.

For the record, there's no superior nor one is in control of another, church, unless of carnal men in the making like the pagans or islam.

A ”building”??
WHO said the church was a “building”??

The Church is the Body of Christ – and it was the Catholic Church who taught this truth to the WORLD (Matt. 28:19-20).
As for your objection to beautiful churches – I think it’s time for a Bible Lesson, son . . .

When Solomon built the Temple, it was regarded as the most beautiful building on earth. It was made of only the finest materials (gold, silver, bronze, cedarwood, etc.) (1 Chronicles 22:14).
Was God offended by this?
NO – He was pleased by it, as He came down and BLESSED it with the fire of the Holy Spirit (2 Chron. 7:7).

I suggest you do some homework before responding . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

If I put down the shovel I’d have nothing to cover the manure with.....

Or pile ono more . . .

He is the same monster who roasts people in hell.....unbaptised babies included. I have done my homework.
You guys invented hell, when there is no such place. The God of the Bible would never do such a thing....

I’d LOVE to be there when YOU tell God that He is a “liar” for saying that there IS a Hell - and it is for ETERNITY . . .
(Isa. 33:11, Ezek. 18:20, Psalms 9:17, Prov. 15:24, Prov. 23:14, Prov. 15:11, 2 Thess. 1:9, Matt. 25:46. Matt. 13:50. Matt. 13:42., Matt. 25:41, Matt. 16:19, Mark 9:43, Acts 2:27, Jude 1:7, 2 Peter 2:4, Rev. 19:20, Rev. 21:8, Rev. 20:13-14, Matt. 10:28).

Tell that to the poor people who believed that rubbish....Anyone convinced that the Bible is not the sole source of Christian beliefs has never read the Bible....or ever really had a relationship with the God of Jesus Christ.
We do not deny the nature of God but do not allow an apostate church to dictate doctrines that have no scriptural basis. You are welcome to all of them. Let’s see where they get you....

Can YOU show me where the Bible says this?

Happy hunting . . .

Funny, but the other scripture that emphasises that point (Matt 16:19) was made to Peter and is given as proof that he was the first pope.....you can’t have it both ways....

The issue was Church Authority - not Peter as Pope.

And Matt. 16:18-19 is not the only place where Jesus gives Peter primacy.
John 21:15-19 and Luke 22:31-32 also illustrate this.

Indeed he was, proving that Peter was not the first pope if all his apostles were equal in privilege and could all determine such things.

Peter was in charge.
If he wasn’t, then tell me –

Tell me WHY Jesus singled out Peter when He gave him the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven (Matt. 16:18-19) if did not put him in charge.

Tell me WHY Jesus asked Peter and Peter alone to feed His lambs and tend His sheep (John 21:15-19) if did not put him in charge.

Tell me WHY Jesus said that He prayed for Peter ALONE to strengthen the others and bring them back to faith (Luke 22:31-32) if did not put him in charge.

Tell me WHY Peter called "Protos" (First) in the Gospel (Matt. 10:2) nor even the first chosen by Jesus?

Tell me WHY Peter's name occurs first in all lists of apostles (Matt. 10:2; Mk 3:16; Luke 6:14; Acts 1:13)?

Tell me WHY Peter is specified by an angel as the leader and representative of the apostles (Mark 16:7)?

Tell me WHY Peter takes the lead in calling for a successor for Judas (Acts 1:22)?

Tell me WHY Peter is the first person to speak (and only one recorded) after Pentecost, making him the first Christian to preach the Gospel in the Church (Acts 2:14-36)?

Tell me WHY Peter works the first miracle of the Church Age, healing a lame man (Acts 3:6-12)?

Tell me WHY Peter is the first person after Christ to raise the dead (Acts 9:40)?

Tell me WHY Cornelius is told by an angel to seek out Peter for instruction in Christianity (Acts 10:1-6)?

His name is mentioned 191 times (162 as Peter or Simon Peter, 23 as Simon and 6 as Cephas). John is the next with only 48 mentions, and Peter is present 50 percent of the time we find John in the Bible.

Can you tell me how many of the apostles wrote books of the Bible?

Matthew, Mark, John, Peter, James, Jude and Paul.

Well, we know that there are ”traditions” and “traditions”....some were passed on by the apostles, and some were borrowed from paganism...”the church” didn’t seem to know which was which.

The Greek is “paradosis” and it means “

1. objectively, that which is delivered, the substance of a teaching”

So unless the “substance of a teaching” that is “delivered” to the people, is well founded in scripture and is not just your church’s adoption of what it wants to pass off as “Christianity”....borrowed from somewhere else.....that is a tradition I can accept.
Yours...? I’ll give them all a miss, thank you. (Matt 15:7-9)
You cannot back up a single belief with scripture that is not twisted all out of shape. You love the lies for some reason....I will never understand.

I can do better than that.
I can give you Traditions that have NO basis in Scripture that YOU follow.

The Canon of Scripture.

The Bible doesn’t give us a list of Books that belong in it.
This is a CATHOLIC TRADITION, declared by the Church in 382 AD. At the Council of Rome.

That is good to know, we’ll be sure to pass that message onto our leader, Jesus, who will have some disturbing news for your leader, pope what’shisname....

I guess Jesus is also still waiting for you to show us the biblical evidence for all the doctrines that you cannot substantiate by scripture.....none of you can seem to manage such an important request....

I’ve been on this forum for over 10 years doing just that. I’d be happy to teach you.

What is it you’d like me to explain?

 

[Fred J]

Jesus put Peter in charge of His flock (John 21:15-19).

He gave him the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven and told him that WHATEVER he bound or loosed on earth would be bound and loosed in Heaven (Matt. 16:18-19).

Readers;

These blind individuals were not led by the Spirit to do spiritual based homework. Only homework carnally done on their own effort and deceived by the devi to liel, like other sects in this world.

Indeed these can quote and explain Biblical verses like islam scholars carnally very well. But they are only able to perceive and proclaim the surface of it to suite their agenda. No matter Peter was in charge of Christ's flocks, take note also highlighted by Apostles, there were flocks not of the same fold in Christ.

These were addressed as 'counterfeits' and 'imposters' ministers and church, who produce approval letters from their elder as ministers of the gsopel besides the Apostles. Apparently these were with the Apostles in the beginning, but since have gone ahead of them and established churches of their own.

Therefore from time to time, in the absence of the Apostles, these 'shortsighted' in the knowledge of the Kingdom minister in their churches. As a result, these bring false twisted gospel message to confuse and divide the believers of their foundation. The same we're build in the foundation of the Apostles and the Prophets in the Holy Bible as divinely led. The same we're also let to face the same 'counterfeit' and 'imposter' denomination and ministers till today, beginning with the catholic church and'jesuits'.

The Roman church mentioned in the New Testament is not the same roman catholic church established after Constantine. This is the later devided denomination with the roman greek orthodox denomination in Rome. Ones in the beginning together emerged during Constantine's reign, except one was strongly influenced by Constantine's last days twisred adoption of roman and greek paganism worship with Christianity.

After his death, the church divided into two, where one occupied the east and the other west of Rome. The roman catholic denomination of the west, by hook or crrook managed to drive out the greek orthodox of the east. As a last resort, they escaped and found refuge in Russia, and roman catholic church took full control of Rome.

If you have ears, listen and pay attention, hence do not be deceived for there' were many false denomination emerged before and after the days of the Apotles. These who are deceived, deceive and able to take control of the weak, even babes in Christ. If possible even the whole world, possible even by violence, and is historically proven.

Kissing his ring is a sign of respect – not worship.
Do YOU worship your wife when you kiss her hand?

You think can refute me with your kid stuff analogy that don't go hand in hand?

Next, the pope is equal to Christ on earth, lets do a comparison since we have the authorative New Testament before your sect even existed.

Jesus haven't a town, a house or a pillow, nor a place to call His own, nor well arrayed publicly in royalty. And the colt was His choice of transport for public appearence, cum without armour and sheild, even though available then, horses and chariot. Even so Peter, who takes charge of His floks after Him till his death here on earth.

For it is written; Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Now can we in comparison take the pope who post himself equal to Christ on earth, or even Peter, as the successor in charge of His floks worldwide today?

He have a fortefied city with bank and etc., a palace served by servants day and night, a throne to have audience from around the world. A royal wardrobe to signify himself superior the rest, and a well arrayed councils as well to meet in halls, hence also guarded by swiss guards. Elected priests and nuns assigned to the house of worship and ceremonies using idols, relics, substances and etc..

A luxurious basilica dedicated to St Peter, a priceless building erected on the grave of Peter himself, as claimed. And for extended public appearences, he rides on a limo sheild with bullet proof glass and surrounded with foot secutities. For me genuinely, is like witnessing grace and truth compared to 'imposters' and 'counterfeits' stifness and lies.

This practice was NEVER sanctioned by the Church.
It was an abuse by a few men, like Johann Tetzel, who roamed the German countryside demanding money for the souls in Purgatory.

Do your homework . .

Readers, for the benefit of the doubt, what did Martin Luther witnessed when he took a pilgrimage to vatican city for an answer? That upon witnessing, his whole preception took a 360 turn, hence next to protest against the papacy itself?

The Church is the Body of Christ – and it was the Catholic Church who taught this truth to the WORLD (Matt. 28:19-20).
As for your objection to beautiful churches – I think it’s time for a Bible Lesson, son . . .

According to papacy, catholic priest are to teach the Bible only to the nobel society, and prevent the common peasants from learning them. That's why among others, brother John Wesley challenge a clergy from vatican, that he assured even a plower will be taught the Bible.

The same Holy Bible of the 'Reformers' who laid down their lives for us, we have in our hands today. And the teacher anointing placed in us to teach, taught us and likewise affirmed by the Holy Ghost. Am a witness myself, and definitely not the lying catholic church, who only picked up seriously the sciptures not so long ago.

After all to 'twist' it to thier preference, advantage, and agenda, and henceforth deceive others, like islam does. If still they do not get a upper hand over the non catholic denminatiion opposition to join them. As a last resort they would not shy away but to take over even by violence possible, period

 

[Fred J]

When Solomon built the Temple, it was regarded as the most beautiful building on earth. It was made of only the finest materials (gold, silver, bronze, cedarwood, etc.) (1 Chronicles 22:14).
Was God offended by this?
NO – He was pleased by it, as He came down and BLESSED it with the fire of the Holy Spirit (2 Chron. 7:7).

I suggest you do some homework before responding . . .

Your homework done is of kindergarten stuff, still drinking milk and sucking on a pacifier. Grow up, and least you be haughty and be wise in your own conceit and find yourself in a ditch!

Is that all your catholic church 'kiddo' answer and explanation in regards your beautiful buildings erected since? Therefore in admiration comparing them to the single Temple of Solomon, claiming coequally legit, admired by GOD, and HIS presence is there?

Hello, is any one home, are catholics still stuck in the past, stagnant and paused in teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.? Come out of your carnal admiration of the past that will be short lived and be in vain! Move forward to the New Testament with the true born again, and you will see the Light before the tunnel! Unless, satan have you blinded like the rest, and may the Lord God in Jesus name forbid and remove these scales!

Readers, if you have ears, listen and pay attention, thank you and glory be to GOD the FATHER of our Lord Jesus Christ;

First, Jesus proclaimed to the Samaritan women, even in regards the still standing Temple of worship in Jerusalem. That no longer the future GOD's people worship in such specific building like the Jew's, nor in the specific plain like the Samaritan's, period

Second, indeed the Temple built by Herod was also luxurious and beautiful, if not no need for the disciples to brag about it to Jesus. But coincidently Jesus at the same time did prophesy about the coming destruction of the Temple, to non existence.

Third, before the destruction of the Temple and as Jesus breathe His last breath and died on the Cross. Immediately among other incedence, there was earthquake and the Temple veil to the Holy of Holies, tore into two. Hence from then on GOD's presence left from Holy of Holies for good.

Forth, soon after prophetically the romans destroyed the Temple leaving not even one stone left standing in it's place. Besides than the outer wall and stones that are still standing until today, as a sign, which soon will be forgotten.

Fifth, why will be soon be forgotten, not by us, but by the Jews rather? This is because there will be a third Temple built by the Jews coming soon, and sacrifices according to the law of Moses shall resume day and night conducted by the priests. Prophetically, not by the will of GOD but by the will of satan through anti-Christ is built. Therefore after three and a half years, he will turn against the Jews, and stop all the priestly works in the Temple. And probably are forced to vacate even, because he will claim his throne in the Holy of Hollies as god from then on.

Sixth, since GOD's presence left the Holy of Holies for good and from a man made structure that failed from time to time and rebuild. Finally, it is destroyed and now in the past, henceforth now HE dwells in HIS own hand made structure. That, was once unclean with stench, dirt and bones, as according to Prophet Ezekiel, HE commanded them bones to a full new body restoration. And that restoration symbolize the very structure of every true born again of water and of the Holy Ghost new creation believers. United as the church building blocks, placed from side by side to one on top the other, while Christ is the Chief corner stone. Now in them HIS very presence dwells since and even until today with no changes.

Seventh, since GOD is SPIRIT, prophetically these are the true worshipers who will worship HIM. in spirit and in truth. They need not any longer specific man made building nor a specific plain to encounter GOD's presence, nor even make a pilgrimage. But rather Jesus alone will be in their midst and together, when even two or three are gathered in His name in any location. These saints gathering can take place in any man made building or any plain or any location. As like in the New Testament for example, the church of Corinth, the church of Ephesus, the church of Rome and etc.

Let us be clear and well versed about the the Old Testament tabernacles and New Testament tabernacles. In the Old only the High Priest is allowed to enter the Holy of Holies and in the presence of GOD, and in receiving HIS every word. Which later is to be addressed to HIS king and HIS people the Israelites. But in the New, every true born again believers spiritually are allowed in the Holy of Holies in Heaven and in the presence of GOD as ABBA/FATHER, and in receiving HIS every word. Which also likewise later is to be address to HIS elders and church, and now even address to the world.

Shalom in the name of Yeshua

 

[Fred J]

Now back to topic;

How can i honor the Lord with my traditions when my traditions do not go inline with His teaching in honor?

Mark10:
13. And they brought young children to Him, that He should touch them: and His discples rebuked those that brought them.
14. But when Jesus saw it, He was much displeased, and said unto them."Suffer the little children to come unto Me, and forbid them not: for of such is the Kingdom of GOD.
15. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the Kingdom of GOD as a little child, he shall not enter therein."
16. And He took them up in His arms, put His hands upon them, and blessed them.

Infant baptism?

Jesus was proclaiming and at the same time discipling those who were there about the Kingdom of GOD. And at the same time, parents were compelled to bring to Him theirs infants and children. So that He would touch and bless them, as how parents or grandparents touch and bless their infants, children or grandchildren.

So in order to honor the Lord, an elder of the church can do the very same thing to believer's infants and children. The question is, why name it specfically 'infant baptism', when there were also children there at the same time? And also why in some of the proceedings they have to use water or other things? When the Lord used only words and the touch of His hands the power of the Holy Ghost?

Now, how does that come down to, whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of GOD then?

Shalom in Jesus name

 

[BreadOfLife]

Now back to topic;

How can i honor the Lord with my traditions when my traditions do not go inline with His teaching in honor?

Mark10:
13. And they brought young children to Him, that He should touch them: and His discples rebuked those that brought them.
14. But when Jesus saw it, He was much displeased, and said unto them."Suffer the little children to come unto Me, and forbid them not: for of such is the Kingdom of GOD.
15. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the Kingdom of GOD as a little child, he shall not enter therein."
16. And He took them up in His arms, put His hands upon them, and blessed them.

Infant baptism?

Jesus was proclaiming and at the same time discipling those who were there about the Kingdom of GOD. And at the same time, parents were compelled to bring to Him theirs infants and children. So that He would touch and bless them, as how parents or grandparents touch and bless their infants, children or grandchildren.

So in order to honor the Lord, an elder of the church can do the very same thing to believer's infants and children. The question is, why name it specfically 'infant baptism', when there were also children there at the same time? And also why in some of the proceedings they have to use water or other things? When the Lord used only words and the touch of His hands the power of the Holy Ghost?

Now, how does that come down to, whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of GOD then?

Shalom in Jesus name

Jesus used tangible means to convey His healing grace.
- He used mud to cure the Blind Man.
- He used His own spittle to heal another blind man (Mark 8:22-26).
- He put His fingers in the Deaf Man’s ears (Mark 7:33-35).
Baptism is no different.

Jesus said that we must be born of WATER and the Spirit (John 3:5).
Water is used for Baptism in several places in the NT (Acts 8:38, Acts 10:47-48, Eph. 5:26, 1 Pet. 3:21)

Water Baptism was foretold in the OT:
Ezek. 36:25-28
I will sprinkle clean WATER upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleanness from all your idols I will cleanse you. A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you; and I will remove from your body the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. I will put my spirit within you, and make you follow my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances. Then you shall live in the land that I gave to your ancestors; and you shall be my people, and I will be your God.

This is exactly how Paul and Peter describes the effects of Baptism:

Titus 3:5
He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Acts 2:38
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Your homework done is of kindergarten stuff, still drinking milk and sucking on a pacifier. Grow up, and least you be haughty and be wise in your own conceit and find yourself in a ditch!

Is that all your catholic church 'kiddo' answer and explanation in regards your beautiful buildings erected since? Therefore in admiration comparing them to the single Temple of Solomon, claiming coequally legit, admired by GOD, and HIS presence is there?

Hello, is any one home, are catholics still stuck in the past, stagnant and paused in teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.? Come out of your carnal admiration of the past that will be short lived and be in vain! Move forward to the New Testament with the true born again, and you will see the Light before the tunnel! Unless, satan have you blinded like the rest, and may the Lord God in Jesus name forbid and remove these scales!

Readers, if you have ears, listen and pay attention, thank you and glory be to GOD the FATHER of our Lord Jesus Christ;

First, Jesus proclaimed to the Samaritan women, even in regards the still standing Temple of worship in Jerusalem. That no longer the future GOD's people worship in such specific building like the Jew's, nor in the specific plain like the Samaritan's, period

Second, indeed the Temple built by Herod was also luxurious and beautiful, if not no need for the disciples to brag about it to Jesus. But coincidently Jesus at the same time did prophesy about the coming destruction of the Temple, to non existence.

Third, before the destruction of the Temple and as Jesus breathe His last breath and died on the Cross. Immediately among other incedence, there was earthquake and the Temple veil to the Holy of Holies, tore into two. Hence from then on GOD's presence left from Holy of Holies for good.

Forth, soon after prophetically the romans destroyed the Temple leaving not even one stone left standing in it's place. Besides than the outer wall and stones that are still standing until today, as a sign, which soon will be forgotten.

Fifth, why will be soon be forgotten, not by us, but by the Jews rather? This is because there will be a third Temple built by the Jews coming soon, and sacrifices according to the law of Moses shall resume day and night conducted by the priests. Prophetically, not by the will of GOD but by the will of satan through anti-Christ is built. Therefore after three and a half years, he will turn against the Jews, and stop all the priestly works in the Temple. And probably are forced to vacate even, because he will claim his throne in the Holy of Hollies as god from then on.

Sixth, since GOD's presence left the Holy of Holies for good and from a man made structure that failed from time to time and rebuild. Finally, it is destroyed and now in the past, henceforth now HE dwells in HIS own hand made structure. That, was once unclean with stench, dirt and bones, as according to Prophet Ezekiel, HE commanded them bones to a full new body restoration. And that restoration symbolize the very structure of every true born again of water and of the Holy Ghost new creation believers. United as the

Seventh, since GOD is SPIRIT, prophetically these are the true worshipers who will worship HIM. in spirit and in truth. They need not any longer specific man made building nor a specific plain to encounter GOD's presence, nor even make a pilgrimage. But rather Jesus alone will be in their midst and together, when even two or three are gathered in His name in any location. These saints gathering can take place in any man made building or any plain or any location. As like in the New Testament for example, the church of Corinth, the church of Ephesus, the church of Rome and etc.

Let us be clear and well versed about the the Old Testament tabernacles and New Testament tabernacles. In the Old only the High Priest is allowed to enter the Holy of Holies and in the presence of GOD, and in receiving HIS every word. Which later is to be addressed to HIS king and HIS people the Israelites. But in the New, every true born again believers spiritually are allowed in the Holy of Holies in Heaven and in the presence of GOD as ABBA/FATHER, and in receiving HIS every word. Which also likewise later is to be address to HIS elders and church, and now even address to the world.

Shalom in the name of Yeshua

A rather LONG-WINDED rant – and you MISSED the point entirely . . .

The point is that YOU are deeply offended by offering our very BEST to God – whereas, the Bible celebrates this. YOU remind me of Judas, when the woman broke the expensive jar of expensive perfumed oil and poured it on Jesus’s head (John 12:1–8). Judas was also offended by this because he thought they could have used that money for the poor.

Jesus rebuked him and told him that what she did was mobile. They would always have the poor – but not Him.

We honor God with our very best – whether that means our complete faith and obedience - or a church to honor Him.
It’s a shame that this triggers you so badly . . .

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

There must be a verse somewhere in the Bible that forbids Scripture in art form. I'm sure Fred can find it.

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

Seventh, since GOD is SPIRIT, prophetically these are the true worshipers who will worship HIM. in spirit and in truth. They need not any longer specific man made building nor a specific plain to encounter GOD's presence, nor even make a pilgrimage. But rather Jesus alone will be in their midst and together, when even two or three are gathered in His name in any location. These saints gathering can take place in any man made building or any plain or any location. As like in the New Testament for example, the church of Corinth, the church of Ephesus, the church of Rome and etc.


Shalom in the name of Yeshua

Christianity was illegal in the first 3 centuries, so having a building would have invited the pagan Romans gunning for them.


Fred has no bishop, an office clearly found in the NT.

 

[christsavedme]

Hi Tony, I went thru all this myself, having been baptized as an infant in the Lutheran Church and raised up in the faith. I have always had faith, but I wandered away in my early adolescence and returned in my later adolescence. I felt stupid getting rebaptized as an adult, but I did it.

My view now is that water baptism is largely for new converts. Those dedicated as babies is a promise by the parents to raise the child in the faith--not actual baptism. Later baptism is not necessary, because it is for new converts. In my case, I may have benefited from a recommit type of water baptism.

At any rate, Water Baptism doesn't save one, but serves as a form of confession that does save one. It's a good practice for new converts. But it's much better to be raised up in the faith, if possible. However, those saved later in life tend to have greater love and appreciation for the faith--men like the Apostle Paul and St. Augustine.

This seems like the most reasonable take on the subject to me. Infant baptism as a ritual of promise and public commitment by the parents, rather than being specifically for the children

 

[BreadOfLife]

Hi Tony, I went thru all this myself, having been baptized as an infant in the Lutheran Church and raised up in the faith. I have always had faith, but I wandered away in my early adolescence and returned in my later adolescence. I felt stupid getting rebaptized as an adult, but I did it.

We are not commanded in Scripture to be "Re-Baptized".

Eph. 4:5-6
One Lord, one faith, ONE BAPTISM, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

My view now is that water baptism is largely for new converts. Those dedicated as babies is a promise by the parents to raise the child in the faith--not actual baptism. Later baptism is not necessary, because it is for new converts. In my case, I may have benefited from a recommit type of water baptism.

At any rate, Water Baptism doesn't save one, but serves as a form of confession that does save one. It's a good practice for new converts. But it's much better to be raised up in the faith, if possible. However, those saved later in life tend to have greater love and appreciation for the faith--men like the Apostle Paul and St. Augustine.

The inerrant Word of Almighty God disagrees with you . . .

John 3:5
Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of WATER and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

1 Pet. 3:20-21
… to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and THIS WATER SYMBOLIZES BAPTISM THAT NOW SAVES YOU also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.

This seems like the most reasonable take on the subject to me. Infant baptism as a ritual of promise and public commitment by the parents, rather than being specifically for the children

Baptism replaces circumcision as the "circumcision of the heart" (Rom. 2:25-29), as Paul called it.

A baby's circumcision wasn't just a "sumbolic ritual" - it entered them into the Covenant with God. A "covenant", by definition is an agreement betreen two or more parties. The parents then raised that chiled within the boundaries of that covenant.

The promises of Baptism - the gift of the Holy Spirit and the remission of sin - is NOT only for adults. As Peter said to the crowns at Pentecost:

Acts 2:3839
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you qin the name of Jesus Christ rfor the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive sthe gift of the Holy Spirit. For tthe promise is for you and ufor your children and for all vwho are far off, EVERYONE

The very SAME is promised for ALL who are Baptized.

 

[Augustin56]

I recently saw a good podcast on Youtube by Jimmy Aiken that gives some interesting information on infant baptism. It's here:

Additionally, the subject is covered in more depth by Trent Horn:

 

[Fred J]

A rather LONG-WINDED rant – and you MISSED the point entirely . . .

The point is that YOU are deeply offended by offering our very BEST to God – whereas, the Bible celebrates this. YOU remind me of Judas, when the woman broke the expensive jar of expensive perfumed oil and poured it on Jesus’s head (John 12:1–8). Judas was also offended by this because he thought they could have used that money for the poor.

Jesus rebuked him and told him that what she did was mobile. They would always have the poor – but not Him.

We honor God with our very best – whether that means our complete faith and obedience - or a church to honor Him.
It’s a shame that this triggers you so badly . . .

When you judge others, you condemn yourself because you do the very same things like ranting and so, you accuse others do.

Am not Judas but am called to live by the every word that proceeded out of the mouth of GOD. So, i don't witness word to word in Mark 10:13-16, or other verses you quote, that does support your added man made traditions.

i perceive by the Spirit to spirit, where you and your denomination proud in your traditions stand, with the Lord's reply;

"Thus have ye made the commandment of GOD of none effect by your tradition."

"And a man's foes shall be they of his own household."