Friendly Bible Study - participants must agree to Nicene Creed.

[ScottA]

I have had 7 Years on CF and about 14K posts - I have dealt with all sorts of issues, but part of my confidence is the brilliant support from the Mods.

It was not some bright idea of mine to do this - I was asked and tested the water and it just fell into place.

For the sake of transparency APAK has decided to pull out as he in all honesty does not agree with 'The Creed' - He was a great contributor and will be greatly missed.

So does that mean it is okay to respond to posts in terms of correction? Which I wouldn't even ask if it were not such a great need during these present times and the aftermath of false teaching that were already at work during the first century. It's just that there are different ways to act in friendship. But I am not sure what you are hoping for or would like to limit things to.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I think if you read my introductory remarks, this issue is covered.

I have stressed a collective effort to mine the text for the gems we are to feed on.

We all have a lot to learn and will continue to do so in the next life.

I prefer to state the case and let Him bring conviction or correction.

A friendly space does not force a view.

 

[Pearl]

Maybe I am introducing topics a little too frequently - I will have to slow down a tad...

It's okay Carl, it's me, I just can't keep up.

 

[ScottA]

I think if you read my introductory remarks, this issue is covered.

I have stressed a collective effort to mine the text for the gems we are to feed on.

We all have a lot to learn and will continue to do so in the next life.

I prefer to state the case and let Him bring conviction or correction.

A friendly space does not force a view.

Yes or No would have sufficed. I have no personal desire to "force a view", but to limit the power of God is another matter. That is what I was referring to, asking for clarification about. So, does the following fit here, Yes or No:

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16-17​

 

[amadeus]

Thank you @Carl Emerson I am way behind and missed so much. It wasn't deliberate, I'm just spending less time on the forum.

@Carl Emerson
Thanks for this thread. Don't expect a lot of input from me as I simply cannot think too well anymore.... But I do try to read all of this thread. I need to read it. Thanks again and God bless you.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Yes or No would have sufficed. I have no personal desire to "force a view", but to limit the power of God is another matter. That is what I was referring to, asking for clarification about. So, does the following fit here, Yes or No:

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16-17​

Definitely Yes - but how it us used is the issue.

There is no intent to limit the power of God, but other powers take scripture and wield it for destruction as well.

 

[ScottA]

Definitely Yes - but how it us used is the issue.

There is no intent to limit the power of God, but other powers take scripture and wield it for destruction as well.

Awesome, got it, thanks for the clarification!

 

[Carl Emerson]

Awesome, got it, thanks for the clarification!

I am aware of mutual accountability when ever believers communicate and welcome that here.

Hey forums don't usually offer a space that is not a confusing battleground, this is an opportunity for like minded folks to learn together and make sure 'the least' are heard.

 

[ScottA]

OK Topic 5.

"What is Faith"

Another topic that is commonly misunderstood.

Key verse... Romans 10:17

" faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ...."

Bearing in mind that hearing the Word of Christ is a gift.

... He who has ears to hear - let him hear.... many don't and can't. Only God can open ears.

The 'Word of Christ' is His living Word personally delivered to you by the Holy Spirit.

It is not the Bible. However it may come as you read and reflect on the message.

It is not inspired preaching however it may come to you as you listen and reflect.

It is foremost personal.

It is only possible by the action of the Holy Spirit.

He opens your ears... You hear His Voice personally.

Once you have heard as described there is a choice.

You either embrace it and all that it implies with confidence - or you resist and run the risk of falling into the sin of unbelief. Obedience or disobedience.

With real faith as described, there comes authority - If His Word is fully embraced and He will watch over it to fulfil it.

This is why the faith that is 'tiny' can achieve great things. (think mustard seed)

It is not about you - it is about what He proposes to do.

Regarding authority Jesus wants us all fully convinced about what He has spoken to us personally.

Any doubt and ask again - He wont mind. Ask a few times if you need - eventually you will not be able to ask because you are fully convinced.

At that point you have authority to act on what you have personally heard. Bear in mind however that the outworking is a partnership between You and Him, and determining His timing is critical.

Now why do I think this topic is important - because it is often misunderstood and applied in the flesh.

Folks hear a 'good word' grab onto it and run with it in the flesh.

Jeremiah 23:30. “Therefore behold, I am against the prophets,” declares the LORD, “who steal My words from each other.

So even a 'good Word' spoken by someone else cannot be personally owned unless the Holy Spirit personally delivers it to you.

If you grab it and hold onto it it is not faith - it is you personally maintaining a mindset of belief in something not given. You may even apply the principle of confessing it over and over - but it is still not faith.

I stress this because it is a common practice and not fruitful.


"Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen...." Romans 11:1

Moving onto this aspect of faith - real faith when worked out makes the invisible, visible.

Consider Abraham, the Father of all who have faith - he believed that God could create something out of nothing - this is resurrection faith - even if he sacrificed Isaac - he assured Isaac WE will return back down the mountain.

This is resurrection faith - a corpse represents no hope. But God makes something out of nothing - and so it is for all of us - Thy Kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven... The unseen becomes real under His rulership.

And this is the test of the real spirit of a person - Believers believe Jesus is raised in the flesh.

This is the faith of Abraham.

Now the world looking on sees you continuing in belief despite the hopelessness - frankly they think you are crazy.

This is the road of faith less walked if you are hearing Him and obeying.

Background reading

George Müller​

As usual please input as we explore this important topic.

Yes, it is very important to recognize that communications from God that are written (i.e. the scriptures) are not carried through to the reader merely by literary means, but rather by spiritual means. Thus, the words are as much as "foolishness" to the natural man, and therefore often the subject of worthless debate over semantics which may or may not actually apply.

Also, since you mentioned it, the test of "Believers believe Jesus is raised in the flesh" although not the direct focus of "faith", is also greatly misunderstood. This is another word where the flesh should not be confused with the spirit. Just briefly: It is often overlooked that "Jesus coming in the flesh" is a double entendre referring both to His first coming and resurrection, but also His second coming. The misunderstanding is to assume that means He returns in that same resurrected body of flesh, when as it is written...He gave that body to the church, and then returns to it as "Christ in you", meaning--in us (Colossians 1:27).

Ultimately, it is the flesh that causes one to reveal just where one's faith lies.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Awesome, got it, thanks for the clarification!

By the way, some use this actual verse (2 Timothy 3:16-17) to demand that God has limited communication with us to reading Scripture only.

Others demand that all God has ever spoken is readable therein.

Worse is when, in extreme cases, folks confuse the Scriptures with the Logos Himself and pretty much elevate the Bible into the Godhead.

My position is that He has chosen in His perfect plan to use imperfect individuals empowered and inspired by His Spirit down through the ages to bring Glory to Himself and secure His purpose.

In the same way He has exclusively chosen the imperfect Scripture with the Inspiration and Power of the Holy Spirit to bring testimony of Truth to us and has watched over its journey through the ages so we have what we need to be confident about the essentials of faith.

A good example of His recent intervention in this matter was when He caused a boy to stumble across a treasure of Scripture in a cave right at the time when theologians in Germany were waging a powerful argument that Scripture was modified by the scribes and was unreliable. Among the parchments was the Book of Isaiah more than 1000 years older than any known text of this book at the time. Examination confirmed that the older text was in fact virtually identical. So we can be sure that he is watching over His written Scripture and be confident in it with His help in understanding.

 

[Carl Emerson]

@Scott I am aware that we might lose readership by undue focus on matters harder to understand as Peter struggled to understand what Paul wrote.
May we get the right balance.
Jesus did not discriminate against the 'common' person by communicating in intellectual language, rather he chose parables that all could relate to and understand with the Holy Spirits help.
In some cases it might be better to communicate via PM the more technical nuances or ask for a sub-forum that some might want to join.
My target audience is those with a heart to walk 'in The Way' who might not have an in depth knowledge of the map but learn to hear Him for their destination.

 

[Rita]

Hebrews 11 ‘ Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see ‘

Faith - meaning ‘ Complete trust and confidence in someone or something and involves reliance and trust and it endures in the face of doubts
While Jesus was alive people witnessed what he was doing, or heard about it, they trusted in him being able to do that for either themselves or others .
The women with the bleeding
The centurion with the sick servant
The friends of the paralysed man
ect
The disciples believed in what they could do , with Jesus authority, once they were sent out …….it was power given to them. They had to learn to trust in Jesus.
When Jesus died none of them believed in what he had promised, they doubted when Mary relayed things. Jesus had to reveal himself , and with Thomas he needed further proof. This relays To me that we can be on a journey with faith………..They heard the words spoken from Jesus, then they heard testimony of others, then they saw for themselves that Jesus was alive -
On the road two of the disciples had to have their eyes opened by Jesus to see what they couldn’t at first see……..
It’s not until acts that faith in a different light - Stephen was ‘ full of faith and of the Holy Spirit ‘ ( acts 6:5 )
Acts 11:24 ‘ full of faith, full of the Holy Spirit ‘ - he was a good man
Acts 14:9 Paul ‘ saw ‘ that the man had faith ……
The apostles themselves had complete faith once the Holy Spirit had come upon them at Pentecost. It was evident that they changed drastically in how they spoke and what they went on to do.

Faith, to me, is trusting in what Jesus can do through me and that would not have happened without the work of the Holy Spirit. However I am aware that there are some things I instantly believed when ‘ I came to faith ‘ but I equally recognise that there are some things that I still have doubts over, not what Jesus can do, but what he will do through me.

 

[Rita]

I must admit that I can’t compete with others who are more into theology, I have a very simple faith.
I am equally not into power struggles that exists within the forum and seem to have come over to this study in the last few days. ( I am saddened that Apak felt he could not stay as I enjoyed reading his testimonies, and his Words were valuable )

 

[ScottA]

By the way, some use this actual verse (2 Timothy 3:16-17) to demand that God has limited communication with us to reading Scripture only.

Others demand that all God has ever spoken is readable therein.

Worse is when, in extreme cases, folks confuse the Scriptures with the Logos Himself and pretty much elevate the Bible into the Godhead.

My position is that He has chosen in His perfect plan to use imperfect individuals empowered and inspired by His Spirit down through the ages to bring Glory to Himself and secure His purpose.

In the same way He has exclusively chosen the imperfect Scripture with the Inspiration and Power of the Holy Spirit to bring testimony of Truth to us and has watched over its journey through the ages so we have what we need to be confident about the essentials of faith.

A good example of His recent intervention in this matter was when He caused a boy to stumble across a treasure of Scripture in a cave right at the time when theologians in Germany were waging a powerful argument that Scripture was modified by the scribes and was unreliable. Among the parchments was the Book of Isaiah more than 1000 years older than any known text of this book at the time. Examination confirmed that the older text was in fact virtually identical. So we can be sure that he is watching over His written Scripture and be confident in it with His help in understanding.

Indeed, the word of God is under his own care.

@Scott I am aware that we might lose readership by undue focus on matters harder to understand as Peter struggled to understand what Paul wrote.
May we get the right balance.
Jesus did not discriminate against the 'common' person by communicating in intellectual language, rather he chose parables that all could relate to and understand with the Holy Spirits help.
In some cases it might be better to communicate via PM the more technical nuances or ask for a sub-forum that some might want to join.
My target audience is those with a heart to walk 'in The Way' who might not have an in depth knowledge of the map but learn to hear Him for their destination.

This is the time for speaking plainly.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Hebrews 11 ‘ Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see ‘

Faith - meaning ‘ Complete trust and confidence in someone or something and involves reliance and trust and it endures in the face of doubts
While Jesus was alive people witnessed what he was doing, or heard about it, they trusted in him being able to do that for either themselves or others .
The women with the bleeding
The centurion with the sick servant
The friends of the paralysed man
ect
The disciples believed in what they could do , with Jesus authority, once they were sent out …….it was power given to them. They had to learn to trust in Jesus.
When Jesus died none of them believed in what he had promised, they doubted when Mary relayed things. Jesus had to reveal himself , and with Thomas he needed further proof. This relays To me that we can be on a journey with faith………..They heard the words spoken from Jesus, then they heard testimony of others, then they saw for themselves that Jesus was alive -
On the road two of the disciples had to have their eyes opened by Jesus to see what they couldn’t at first see……..
It’s not until acts that faith in a different light - Stephen was ‘ full of faith and of the Holy Spirit ‘ ( acts 6:5 )
Acts 11:24 ‘ full of faith, full of the Holy Spirit ‘ - he was a good man
Acts 14:9 Paul ‘ saw ‘ that the man had faith ……
The apostles themselves had complete faith once the Holy Spirit had come upon them at Pentecost. It was evident that they changed drastically in how they spoke and what they went on to do.

Faith, to me, is trusting in what Jesus can do through me and that would not have happened without the work of the Holy Spirit. However I am aware that there are some things I instantly believed when ‘ I came to faith ‘ but I equally recognise that there are some things that I still have doubts over, not what Jesus can do, but what he will do through me.

Yes, they saw or heard and believed - heard the Word and witnessed the action of Christ.

They were convinced He was the real deal and trusted Him.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I must admit that I can’t compete with others who are more into theology, I have a very simple faith.
I am equally not into power struggles that exists within the forum and seem to have come over to this study in the last few days. ( I am saddened that Apak felt he could not stay as I enjoyed reading his testimonies, and his Words were valuable )

Yes, I share your sentiment, but the only way to maintain a safe space is to have rules that eliminate the destructive argument that serves no good purpose.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Can we extend the consideration regarding faith please.

I would like suggestions around when our actions and belief do not come from faith.

Example - someone who comes into close contact with Christians who learns about the life and customs but doesn't personally have an encounter with Jesus and personally yield to Him - this could even be someone employed by the church. Such a person is not in faith. Instead they endeavour to sustain a Christian life by adopting a mind set of piety.

...or a genuinely born again believer who is encouraged into ministry (often too soon) and learns to mimic the style of true saints being used of Him. What complicates this situation is that unless real discernment is functioning among leaders such a false 'ministry' continues undetected and does not flow from real faith.

So a false teaching that I would like to expose is the suggestion that faith is a mindset we need to maintain or we slide into unbelief - when the essential ability to see or hear what He is saying is not being taught or learned.

A classic case of this is detailed in 1 Kings 22 concerning Ahab and Jehoshaphat, which I encourage you to read this beautiful passage along with the parallel verses in Chronicles.

I have to say that almost 30 years ago I was going to read and pray in the morning and His Spirit led me directly to this passage. As I read, I saw a strong parallel with some churches today. Ministries operating with great gusto fighting a spiritual battle that God had not ordained. The real voice of the Spirit was closed down, yet the show rolled on. In the height of the battle His real Word went forth concerning believers being like sheep without a shepherd. Great defeat was followed by the instruction to return home.

From this I learned that the first responsibility we all have is to let His light shine from the platform of our families and from there to bring life into the church.

How does this work out in practice ? Start praying for your immediate neighbours and trust Him to open up opportunity to speak about Him. Let your home be the platform of your fruitful service to Him, bringing the neighbours into an awareness of Him, then bring the new lives into the church.

So the passage also underlines what happens when the genuine prophetic voice in the church is muted, prophets steal words from one another rather than hearing Him direct. Human loyalty to the prevailing 'vision' deafens ears and blinds eyes.

@ScottA suggested plain speaking was needed - so there you have it.

This is pretty serious...

A few years ago I visited a Church and I had a Word for the Pastor which he received with tears.

The next Sunday we attended and he called me up the front to prophesy over a line of people - from my point of view it was ridiculous and more like a circus.

That Pastor fell badly and was imprisoned.

I am genuinely deeply concerned about how we are doing church in some cases.

love you all...

 

[GRACE ambassador]

the only way to maintain a safe space is to have rules that eliminate the destructive argument that serves no good purpose.

Kinda like these Bible study Rules, eh?

I must admit that I can’t compete with others who are more into theology, I have a very simple faith.

I, the simpleton, can relate to that, and seems to keep in line with Paul's Scripture:

"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from The Simplicity That Is In Christ." (2 Corinthians 11:3 AV)​

Amen.

 

[ScottA]

Can we extend the consideration regarding faith please.

I would like suggestions around when our actions and belief do not come from faith.

Example - someone who comes into close contact with Christians who learns about the life and customs but doesn't personally have an encounter with Jesus and personally yield to Him - this could even be someone employed by the church. Such a person is not in faith. Instead they endeavour to sustain a Christian life by adopting a mind set of piety.

...or a genuinely born again believer who is encouraged into ministry (often too soon) and learns to mimic the style of true saints being used of Him. What complicates this situation is that unless real discernment is functioning among leaders such a false 'ministry' continues undetected and does not flow from real faith.

So a false teaching that I would like to expose is the suggestion that faith is a mindset we need to maintain or we slide into unbelief - when the essential ability to see or hear what He is saying is not being taught or learned.

A classic case of this is detailed in 1 Kings 22 concerning Ahab and Jehoshaphat, which I encourage you to read this beautiful passage along with the parallel verses in Chronicles.

I have to say that almost 30 years ago I was going to read and pray in the morning and His Spirit led me directly to this passage. As I read, I saw a strong parallel with some churches today. Ministries operating with great gusto fighting a spiritual battle that God had not ordained. The real voice of the Spirit was closed down, yet the show rolled on. In the height of the battle His real Word went forth concerning believers being like sheep without a shepherd. Great defeat was followed by the instruction to return home.

From this I learned that the first responsibility we all have is to let His light shine from the platform of our families and from there to bring life into the church.

How does this work out in practice ? Start praying for your immediate neighbours and trust Him to open up opportunity to speak about Him. Let your home be the platform of your fruitful service to Him, bringing the neighbours into an awareness of Him, then bring the new lives into the church.

So the passage also underlines what happens when the genuine prophetic voice in the church is muted, prophets steal words from one another rather than hearing Him direct. Human loyalty to the prevailing 'vision' deafens ears and blinds eyes.

@ScottA suggested plain speaking was needed - so there you have it.

This is pretty serious...

A few years ago I visited a Church and I had a Word for the Pastor which he received with tears.

The next Sunday we attended and he called me up the front to prophesy over a line of people - from my point of view it was ridiculous and more like a circus.

That Pastor fell badly and was imprisoned.

I am genuinely deeply concerned about how we are doing church in some cases.

love you all...

God uses many things--all things, and all people whether good or evil and works it all for His good. In other words, be it a donkey or a king, or a captivating stare into the heavens or God showing Himself active in an insect--all these are His works. Works for what? For fulfilling His great intentions of us in Christ, and Christ in God, all in all, perfect and everlasting.

God has unfolded every man and woman since Adam and Eve out into the multitudes and all that are born into this world, that some might see Him even when He is not otherwise visible, in an act of refolding each one who comes to that invisible call back to be born again into the One man, Jesus Christ, in whom we enter into the presence of God forevermore.

Example: My wife is an artist/painter. Needing to move and needing to have studio space, she prayed, we prayed. Shortly thereafter a friend said she was moving and we might want to consider moving into her old place. We went with her to see the home with ample room for a studio and talk with the landlord. While we were talking, my wife glanced down to the landlord's front door threshold and there was a praying mantis. The landlord, exclaimed, "In all my 80 years of living here, I have never seen one of those!" ... We then went home deep in thought about the possibility of making the move. My wife ambled over to the door of her detached studio, looked down, and there on the threshold was another rare sighting of a praying mantis. "Oh God--thank you--even the bugs declare your presence and give approval!" So we moved. True story.

 

[Carl Emerson]

OK so far so good - I wanted to establish a foundation before embarking on the Book of Acts.

I have noticed that one of the most neglected parts of the NT is the beginning of Acts.

I think this is because the cost is high to follow Him towards the 'first love' of the church that this section presents.

I have heard preachers reading this passage and skipping over the verses. Last week in our church, the sermon was on this passage and the preacher wanted to throw the bible across the room because of the challenge it bought.

Many will say that we shouldn't take it too seriously because it represents a unique time during the birth of the church and doesn't apply any more.

I think that one fact that readers miss is that the early church thrived in the environment of an existing Jewish community that operated on principles already specified in the OT. This combined with the Love of Jesus within hearts and the fear of God among them, set the stage for a manifestation of Jesus's Body of Love for the first time.

The Jews had a history of persecution and survival, had learned to stick together and combine resources. They already looked after the stranger and respected the Scripture.

While in Jerusalem in the 80's I heard of Christians being called to Israel to share His Good News with the Jews and found the gong very hard... In fact it was not uncommon for them to be humbled and supported by the very people they came to 'convert'.

So lets for homework read the first Chapter of Acts...

Can you post when you have managed to do this please. :)