Are we saved by certainty, or by faith? - the mystery of salvation

[Behold]

and I agree with much that Calvin believed.

Am i supposed to thank you for letting me know you are a "closet Calvinist"?

A.) No Thank you.

Listen... @Randy Kluth

God is not a Calvinist.
Jesus is not a Calvinist.
Paul is not a Calvinist.

Calvin TWISTED a few verses in the NT to falsely teach that God chooses some for Hell, and then sends them to Hell for being a Christ Rejector.

Let me run that past you again @Randy Kluth .


God wont CHOOSE some to believe, (non-elect) (Calvin teaches).. and then God sends them to Hell for UNBELIEF..

So Calvinism is teaching that : = God wont let them believe, (wont choose them to believe) and then they are sent to Hell for being UNBELIEVERS..

John 3:36

Calvinism is teaching that the Eternal WRATH of God is the eternal damnation of all who God wont allow to believe In Jesus..
So, God DAMNS THEM TO HELL for being "unbelievers" and God caused it.

A.) Welcome to Calvinism.

It recreates then DEFINES God as a Cosmic Psychopath..... who sends people to Hell because He wont "Pre-destine" them to believe, and then in their UNBELIEF that GOD caused, God then judges them into HELL for being a "Christ Rejector"

Calvinism-Tulip is one of the most TWISTED into Theological Insanity "belief systems" that Satan ever inspired a Utterly Deceived MAN to CREATE, and thereby DECEIVE millions and millions and millions and millions and millions of people, most of whom say..that... "YES im a Calvinist"= when asked.. "are you a Christian".??

 

[quietthinker]

Faith is not required to believe a certainty.

How much energy do we expend attempting to promote salvation as a certainty?

All the reams of apologetics to make the mystery of faith appear to be a certainty.

Were we saved by grace through certainty, or saved by grace through faith?

]

Are we saved by certainty, or by faith? - the mystery of salvation​

We are saved by Jesus.
Why gravitate to the subjective and make it the primary criteria? ie certainty or faith
Faith is the hand which grasps the certainty of Salvation but Salvation is there even before we are born.

 

[St. SteVen]

Are we saved by certainty, or by faith? - the mystery of salvation​

We are saved by Jesus.
Why gravitate to the subjective and make it the primary criteria? ie certainty or faith
Faith is the hand which grasps the certainty of Salvation but Salvation is there even before we are born.

Thank you.

Oftentimes I have to state the questions in terms our readers will understand.

Our readers understand that salvation is something that happens to an individual at some point in time.

You and I (and a few others) understand that salvation came for all of humankind when Jesus paid our death penalty.

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

]

 

[mailmandan]

Faith is the substance of things hoped for. the evidence of things not seen.. The word means to have an "assurance"

we have no confident hope. we really have no faith.

Yes, other translations say:

NASB 1995
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

New American Standard Bible
Now faith is the certainty of things hoped for, a proof of things not seen.

 

[Behold]

Salvation is there even before we are born.​

Yes, Christ died on the Cross quite a while back for : "All the sin of the Word".


'"""" Jesus is the ONE TIME......ETERNAL.....Sacrifice......FOR SIN".....

 

[St. SteVen]

'"""" Jesus is the ONE TIME......ETERNAL.....Sacrifice......FOR SIN".....

Curious about why the word ETERNAL applies here.

]

 

[Behold]

Curious about why the word ETERNAL applies here.

]

I'll give you the spiritual answer, vs the historical.

The reason that Jesus's sacrifice of His own shed Blood is (the one time ETERNAL Sacrifice) (The Cross of Christ) (The BLOOD Atonement) is,: because It's God's Blood.

See, Jesus has no earthly Father.. And the Child in the womb does not get its blood from the Mother, as the Mother's blood never enteres into the veins of the "baby", while in her womb.

So, Jesus's Blood is "not of this EARTH".. because its from a unique : FATHER.

So, as God is Eternal, and its THIS HOLY BLOOD that is shed, then the Sacrifice of God's "only Begotten", is the same.

And not only is that a "wonder" ........but, this Eternal Sacrifice of the BLOOD OF JESUS, has already paid for all the sinner's sins, who are now alive, and who lived 2000 yrs ago, since the Cross was Raised.

Read :

2 Corinthians 5:19

John 3:17

The BLOOD ATONEMENT, the Payment for the sin of the Word = is ETERNAL,.... because its based on UNIQUE BLOOD.

And that is why, ONCE it is applied to the sin of a sinner, when they Give God their Faith in Christ... this Holy SHED BLOOD not only cleanses their sin, but it redeems them from it, forever.

And we find this verse...>"Where sin abounds, GRACE MORE Abounds".

Paraphrase....:

- Where Sin once was, now is only GRACE.

- Where once was found a sinner, now is only found a Saint.

Welcome To : Salvation.

Its ETERNAL., and HE is : THE GIFT from GOD.

 

[quietthinker]

Thank you.

Oftentimes I have to state the questions in terms our readers will understand.

Our readers understand that salvation is something that happens to an individual at some point in time.

You and I (and a few others) understand that salvation came for all of humankind when Jesus paid our death penalty.

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

]

I would say Salvation came SteVen before the foundation of the World. I wonder what 'Salvation before the foundation of the World means'? It means that God's tenderness, his Grace, his Mercy, his Loving Kindness have always existed, it is past present continuous and has never changed......ever

What then is the death of Jesus about? It is because we could not stand his goodness and murdered him.....and he allowed it. He allowed it because there is not a shred of darkness in him; there is no element of selfishness, ie of self preservation....so that we could see his heart, ie the driving force of his M.O.

 

[St. SteVen]

I wonder what 'Salvation before the foundation of the World means'?

I think we touched on it in this topic.
The Logos/logic/reason/intent/plan of God. Before the creation of the physical universe. The end he saw from the beginning.

Is the Logos meaningful, or meaningless? - Depends on your view of Logos.

I want to discuss the Logos as what it means before the Logos became flesh. (and dwelt among us) In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God. (John 1:1) This tells three things about the Logos. 1) The Logos was from the beginning. 2) The Logos was with...

www.christianityboard.com

]

 

[quietthinker]

I think we touched on it in this topic.
The Logos/logic/reason/intent/plan of God. Before the creation of the physical universe. The end he saw from the beginning.

Is the Logos meaningful, or meaningless? - Depends on your view of Logos.

I want to discuss the Logos as what it means before the Logos became flesh. (and dwelt among us) In the beginning was the Logos, and the Logos was with God, and the Logos was God. (John 1:1) This tells three things about the Logos. 1) The Logos was from the beginning. 2) The Logos was with...

www.christianityboard.com

]

The Good News is a past and present continuous reality which is held in our earthen vessels by believing it......till the physical reality becomes our experience at the second coming.....when mortality puts on immortality and this corruptible puts on incorruption.
This has been the great hope though poorly understood by God's people.

The Good News is not a message of the past from which we now move on from; a message which becomes a sole cerebral exercise which is somehow eclipsed by greater and better things. The Good News will be the science and the song of the redeemed throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity.....its wonder ever unfolding to greater and greater depths.

 

[quietthinker]

The Good News is a past and present continuous reality which is held in our earthen vessels by believing it......till the physical reality becomes our experience at the second coming.....when mortality puts on immortality and this corruptible puts on incorruption.
This has been the great hope though poorly understood by God's people.

The Good News is not a message of the past from which we now move on from; a message which becomes a sole cerebral exercise which is somehow eclipsed by greater and better things. The Good News will be the science and the song of the redeemed throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity.....its wonder ever unfolding to greater and greater depths.

As an example, our Sun can only be seen at a distance.....and even that with great difficulty when looking directly at it.
God's Glory is his self sacrificing love; its brightness a consuming fire.

 

[Behold]

I would say Salvation came SteVen before the foundation of the World.

If Salvation came "before the foundation of the world" then there was no world, so there were no sinners on it to "Save".

So, what we can understand, is that the "Fore-Knowledge" of God knew what was going to happen once He created Mankind with .....

= FREE WILL

... and so God FORE-KNEW of the eternal preparation as Adam #2, ......before it all went wrong with Adam #1.

 

[quietthinker]

If Salvation came "before the foundation of the world" then there was no world, so there were no sinners on it to "Save".

So, what we can understand, is that the "Fore-Knowledge" of God knew what was going to happen once He created Mankind with FREE- WILL..., and so God FORE-KNEW of the eternal preparation as Adam #2, ......before it all went wrong with Adam #1.

God's M.O. has never altered. His attitude towards all his creation throughout eternity is one of unending care and kindness.

 

[Behold]

God's M.O. has never altered. His attitude towards all his creation throughout eternity is one of unending care and kindness.

Yet God killed everything that has breath and was standing, while Noah was "saved"... in the Ark.
And In Genesis 19, God literally burned Homosexuality into black ash.

Are those 2 situations "God's Creation"?

Also, in 2 Thess 1:8-9, Jesus is coming back to destroy......not to save... He is bringing "Flaming Fire" with Him as "VENGEANCE"... that will be Righteously and JUSTLY presented against : "ALL those who do not OBEY The Gospel".

"OBEY" = Means to BELIEVE IT.

So, While its True that "God sent Jesus to the Cross for the World", To offer His Son's Blood and Death to pay for our sin.. its also true that Hell is not a myth and the Lake of Fire that is the 2nd Death, is as Eternal As God.

A.) God is LOVE
AA.) God is not mocked
AAA.) Its a fearful thing to fall into the Hands of the LIVING GOD.

 

[quietthinker]

Yet God killed everything that has breath and was standing, while Noah was "saved"... in the Ark.
And In Genesis 19, God literally burned Homosexuality into black ash.

Are those 2 situations "God's Creation"?

Also, in 2 Thess 1:8-9, Jesus is coming back to destroy......not to save... He is bringing "Flaming Fire" with Him as "VENGEANCE"... that will be Righteously and JUSTLY presented against : "ALL those who do not OBEY The Gospel".

"OBEY" = Means to BELIEVE IT.

So, While its True that "God sent Jesus to the Cross for the World", To offer His Son's Blood and Death to pay for our sin.. its also true that Hell is not a myth and the Lake of Fire that is the 2nd Death, is as Eternal As God.

A.) God is LOVE
AA.) God is not mocked
AAA.) Its a fearful thing to fall into the Hands of the LIVING GOD.

You choose to see through a lens which lacks Jesus. As a result distortions of God's character will always muddy the perception.

 

[St. SteVen]

You choose to see through a lens which lacks Jesus. As a result distortions of God's character will always muddy the perception.

When I read your post I spoke out loud, "I love you, buddy."

]

 

[quietthinker]

 

[quietthinker]

When I read your post I spoke out loud, "I love you, buddy."

]

 

[face2face]

Faith is not required to believe a certainty.

How much energy do we expend attempting to promote salvation as a certainty?

All the reams of apologetics to make the mystery of faith appear to be a certainty.

Were we saved by grace through certainty, or saved by grace through faith?

]

Now Certainty is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the people of old received their commendation. 3 By Certainty we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible. 4 By Certainty Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as righteous, God commending him by accepting his gifts. And through his Certainty, though he died, he still speaks. 5 By Certainty Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God. 6 And without Certainty it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. 7 By Certainty Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, in reverent fear constructed an ark for the saving of his household. By this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness that comes by Certainty. Heb 11:1–7.

@everyone

Assurance relates to what is certain; dependable, immoveable etc.

Salvation cannot be seen and the word faith holds more depth of understanding than the word certainty.

For instance a person can have total confidence and certainty about future events but their faith might be in error which is why the substance of faith is essential for salvation.

F2F

 

[face2face]

What then is the death of Jesus about? It is because we could not stand his goodness and murdered him.....and he allowed it. He allowed it because there is not a shred of darkness in him; there is no element of selfishness, ie of self preservation....so that we could see his heart, ie the driving force of his M.O.

Interesting insight... maybe without knowing you made it.

For God to Willingly put His Son to death as He did, was this an act of darkness, or the act of a Loving Merciful God?

From a tender young age the Lord knew how he would die. The Word of God foretold it would happen and why.

this man, who was handed over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you executed by nailing him to a cross at the hands of Gentiles Ac 2:23.

You need to know and understand His Plan before implying darkness.

F2F