Are we saved by certainty, or by faith? - the mystery of salvation

[St. SteVen]

Faith is not required to believe a certainty.

How much energy do we expend attempting to promote salvation as a certainty?

All the reams of apologetics to make the mystery of faith appear to be a certainty.

Were we saved by grace through certainty, or saved by grace through faith?

]

 

[Lambano]

I found it helpful to understand "faith" as "trust" rather than "belief". Trust in a Person, rather than belief in, say, a theological construct.

How does "trust" interact with "certainty"?

 

[Behold]

Were we saved by grace through certainty, or saved by grace through faith?

]

Faith is not the Savior.

God through CHRIST : is the Savior and Jesus is the means... = "the WAY"..... John 14:6

So, do not put your faith in faith......put your trust in CHRIST, and God will save you though your Faith.

Faith is not the Savior.

JESUS is the Savior.

A.) only JESUS Saves.
-
KJ21
Neither is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved.”
ASV
And in none other is there salvation: for neither is there any other name under heaven, that is given among men, wherein we must be saved.
AMP
And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among people by which we must be saved [for God has provided the world no alternative for salvation].”
AMPC
And there is salvation in and through no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by and in which we must be saved.
BRG
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
CSB
There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to people by which we must be saved.”
CEB
Salvation can be found in no one else. Throughout the whole world, no other name has been given among humans through which we must be saved.”
CJB
There is salvation in no one else! For there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by whom we must be saved!”
CEV
Only Jesus has the power to save! His name is the only one in all the world that can save anyone.
DARBY
And salvation is in none other, for neither is there another name under heaven which is given among men by which we must be saved.
DLNT
And there is no salvation in any other, for neither is there another name under heaven having been given among people by which we must be saved”.
DRA
Neither is there salvation in any other. For there is no other name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be saved.
ERV
Jesus is the only one who can save people. His name is the only power in the world that has been given to save anyone. We must be saved through him!”
EASY
Then Peter said, ‘Only Jesus can save people. There has never been another person in the world that could do this. God has not given any other man the authority to save us.’
EHV
“There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to people by which we must be saved.”
ESV
And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
ESVUK
And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
EXB
·Jesus is the only One who can save people [L Salvation is found/present in no one else]. ·No one else [L No other name given to people] ·in the world [L under heaven] is able to save us.”

 

[Ritajanice]

Were we saved by grace through certainty, or saved by grace through faith?

God gifted me the Faith to believe in my spirit ,he drew me to Jesus, he brought me to believe in Jesus, he forgave my sins before I became Born Again, like you it was a supernatural/ Spiritual event that only God can perform via His Spirit, The Spirit testifies with our spirit that we are His children/ Born Again.

A Living Spiritual birth, that can only be understood in one’s heart/ spirit as you well know.

We were Born Of The Spirit...Spirit gives birth to spirit.

One can’t believe in Jesus without His witness the Living Holy Spirit, making our spirit Born Again.....we have been Born Again of imperishable/ incorruptible seed...that seed is the Living Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit makes us Born Again and it’s because of Jesus death and resurrection that we can be Born Of The Spirit..

Chosen and predestined to become Born Again!

Praise God for that Honour and Privilege!

My opinion/ testimony/ belief, which can’t be proven.

 

[St. SteVen]

I found it helpful to understand "faith" as "trust" rather than "belief". Trust in a Person, rather than belief in, say, a theological construct.

That's a good way to look at it. Thanks.

How does "trust" interact with "certainty"?

We have a worship song that we sing at my church with a lyric that says:
"I don't know what you're doing, but I know what you've done."

Trust is earned. It's based on perception (gut) and track-record.
Part of the track record is testimony given by others that we already trust.

This is NEVER 100% certainty, but perhaps as close as we can get.

]

 

[Behold]

Trust is earned. It's based on perception (gut) and track-record.

Jesus's "track record" is The Cross of Christ.

Its Trustworthy, and just to prove it to you @St. SteVen , Jesus rose from the Dead as was seen by over 500 people, after He rose from the Dead.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Faith is not required to believe a certainty.

How much energy do we expend attempting to promote salvation as a certainty?

All the reams of apologetics to make the mystery of faith appear to be a certainty.

Were we saved by grace through certainty, or saved by grace through faith?

I would say that "faith" is not the same thing as "certainty" in matters of knowledge. We may know, of certainty, that Jesus was the Messiah and that God exists. This is not the same thing as "saving faith."

Saving Faith is synonymous with "faithfulness" in regard to God's word. When we believe God's word to the extent we are faithful to it, we have biblical faith. When we believe that God can make us new creatures to the extent we are willing to live by it, we have saving faith.

Certainty is a beautiful thing in matters of the truths God has for His people. He promises them forgiveness, a new life, and a certain amount of prosperity both here and in the future.

When we believe and accept these things as God's people, we embrace them as realities. And that's what gives us the experience of salvation, which is nothing more than eternal life with God. When we believe and receive what He has for us we show that we accept Him and believe that He accepts us.

Receiving the experience that God has promised us gives us the certainty we need to have the assurance of salvation. This is a greater certainty than just knowing the sun will rise in the morning.

Certainty in knowing certain things is valuable in matters of science and in all kinds of practical situations. But in matters of salvation, certainty comes with the experience of God's word in our lives.

 

[St. SteVen]

I would say that "faith" is not the same thing as "certainty" in matters of knowledge. We may know, of certainty, that Jesus was the Messiah and that God exists. This is not the same thing as "saving faith."

Seems to me that we do NOT have certainty "that Jesus was the Messiah and that God exists." Do we not take this things by faith?

]

 

[Randy Kluth]

Seems to me that we do NOT have certainty "that Jesus was the Messiah and that God exists." Do we not take this things by faith?

I suppose the debate is really about, What is "certainty?" Do we have certainty about anything? The most certain things, like the sun rose this morning, can be questioned as a matter of, Was I dreaming?, or "Am I crazy?"

So certainty always seems to have an antagonist. However, I still believe in "certainty." I really know that I'm not dreaming when I say, "I'm certain the sun came up this morning. I don't care if the clouds hid the sun, or if there was some kind of eclipse. I know with certainty that the sun came up this morning."

So translate this into religious knowledge. If God is absolute truth, and if He conveys truth to us, and we receive that truth, we can receive it with certainty, or we can doubt it. What is certain, as far as I'm concerned, is that if we choose not to doubt this absolute truth, then we can indeed experience certainty in religious truth.

Of course this doesn't apply to all matters of religion--only ones where we feel completely certain. And that only happens in certain conditions where the evidence sort of surrounds every question.

I understand your complaint, and I actually do agree with it in some measure. Apologists try too hard to prove the truth of the Bible, proving that Noah's ark is really up there on top of Mt. Ararat, and think that by proving these things Christianity will suddenly become rational to a rational world, and Christianity will not just be intellectually accepted but embraced as the truth for mankind.

This kind of approach in apologetics has a place largely for people who are intellectual or scientific, and need to brush away some of their personal concerns. Removing some issues can prepare the way for a faith acceptance, which is what you're really after, right?

Faith isn't, however, blind acceptance. Rather, it is a responsible response to a proposition that God is making to us by His word. Accepting that proposition responsibly we learn obedience to God's word, and thus exercise "faith."

 

[Ritajanice]

I certainly do have certainty that Jesus was God’s Son, that he died and was resurrected, that certainty could only come via Gods witness when He made my spirit Born Again, only Gods Living Witness can back up Gods written word of truth.

That is my opinion/ testimony and belief....

The written word is where we mature in Christ , and it’s all in God’s timing, only he can bring His Spiritual Book to our understanding via His Spirit.....it’s our spirit that communicates with God via His Holy Spirit.

That’s who leads our spirit through scripture, without the Spirit we know nothing and are alienated from the Spirit of God.

The Spirit does the will of the Father on earth....mind Blowing!!

Who brings us to obedience and understanding obedience?

It’s taken Him years to get me to understand obedience ....we grow and mature in the spirit at Gods pace....that has been a very hard lesson to learn.

Not my timing...I can’t tell God what to do or how everything is going to work out....trust me I tried.

I must of had him in fits of laughter........yes Lord, I have well and truly got your message relayed to my heart/ spirit.

All in YOUR TIMING LORD!...as it’s PERFECT TIMING!....in Jesus Name!...Amen!

 

[St. SteVen]

What is certain, as far as I'm concerned, is that if we choose not to doubt this absolute truth, then we can indeed experience certainty in religious truth.

Experiential certainty. It's personal, not universal. Agree. Therefore it is not absolute truth. Even though that may be our opinion. Not everyone agrees. Not beyond any doubt. Nor can we, I suppose.

Faith isn't, however, blind acceptance. Rather, it is a responsible response to a proposition that God is making to us by His word. Accepting that proposition responsibly we learn obedience to God's word, and thus exercise "faith."

Again, a personal certainty. We are sure no matter what others think.

It seems to fill a human need. We don't need to understand it ti need it. So, driven by human need not convincing evidence ultimately. The emotional aspect outweighs the intellectual. IMHO

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[St. SteVen]

I certainly do have certainty that Jesus was God’s Son, that he died and was resurrected, that certainty could only come via Gods witness when He made my spirit Born Again, only Gods Living Witness can back up Gods written word of truth.

That is my opinion/ testimony and belief....

There it is again. Absolute certainty as a personal belief/opinion.

It seems that our personal testimony is the only concrete evidence we have. The proof is in the pudding.

]

 

[Randy Kluth]

Experiential certainty. It's personal, not universal. Agree. Therefore it is not absolute truth. Even though that may be our opinion. Not everyone agrees. Not beyond any doubt. Nor can we, I suppose.


Again, a personal certainty. We are sure no matter what others think.

It seems to fill a human need. We don't need to understand it ti need it. So, driven by human need not convincing evidence ultimately. The emotional aspect outweighs the intellectual. IMHO

]

A good book I read in the past was called "Faith Based Upon Fact," by John W. Montgomery, a Lutheran scholar who excelled in evidential apologetics. I've read Soren Kierkegaard, who had a kind of sketchy view of certainty, as you do. I come out somewhere in between Evidential Apologetics and Christian Existentialism. Mouthful, huh? ;)

My view is that truth, though objective, is not always perceived due to the limitation willful and innate Sin has placed upon our minds. We "see through a glass darkly." When we choose to "go our own way," we are unable to see God's way. But even when our eyes are open, and we're willing to see God's truth, it isn't always so clear--our innate senses are obstructed by the independent nature we were born with.

I live life with the understanding that truth only becomes certain when God wishes to so reveal it to us, as you say, when we "need it." Those who reject it, whether they "need it" or not, are actually rejecting "certainty" that they could have. But they've chosen to reject the certainty of truth that could save them.

So yes, it is "personal," and not something we can all "sit down and agree on." Thanks for bringing the subject and your view. I personally find it interesting to think about.

 

[Behold]

I live life with the understanding that truth only becomes certain when God wishes to so reveal it to us,

God's word is His Truth revealed., there is no need to wait for anything else., as this just wastes your time.

 

[Hawkins]

Faith is for humans to reach a truth of any kind. God demands humans to apply the same Faith to reach Him.

We don't have evidence or proof of whether Trump or Biden (or any US president) actually won the votes. What we have is the faith on who is legit.

To put it another way, only eyewitnesses have the evidence and for the rest of human kind to believe with faith. That's how humans get to a truth. A scientific truth is how scientists acting as eyewitnesses for the rest, which is %99.99 humans to believe with faith. That what science is to humans.

 

[St. SteVen]

@Hawkins welcome to the forum.
Oops! Wait... you've been here since 2007. - LOL

Only 49 posts?

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[Randy Kluth]

God's word is His Truth revealed., there is no need to wait for anything else., as this just wastes your time.

I completely agree that we should be content with whatever God has already revealed to us, that is, until He reveals something more to us. He certainly reveals truth regularly, but it is never inconsistent with previous revelation. Thank you.

 

[Behold]

I completely agree that we should be content with whatever God has already revealed to us, that is, until He reveals something more to us. He certainly reveals truth regularly, but it is never inconsistent with previous revelation. Thank you.

Ive met a lot of Christians who say...."im just not certain what God's will is for me".

So, if you ask them....>"Do you study the NT... do you spent time in the word, a lot". ?

A.) "not really."

So, The answer, is in the Answer book., no matter the Question., and if a person only reads commentaries and listens to preaching or argues on forums......then they will not go any farther in the spiritual realm, as a person can only go so far by not studying the word. (NT).

Normally those will end up here for LIFE.......... Hebrews 6:1

or here : Calvinism or Mormon or JW or Catholic., as a "doctrine of devils" finds people who do not know the Scriptures as Paul teaches them.
Its a certainty.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Ive met a lot of Christians who say...."im just not certain what God's will is for me".

So, if you ask them....>"Do you study the NT... do you spent time in the word, a lot". ?

A.) "not really."

So, The answer, is in the Answer book., no matter the Question., and if a person only reads commentaries and listens to preaching or argues on forums......then they will not go any farther in the spiritual realm, as a person can only go so far by not studying the word. (NT).

Normally those will end up here for LIFE.......... Hebrews 6:1

or here : Calvinism or Mormon or JW or Catholic., as a "doctrine of devils" finds people who do not know the Scriptures as Paul teaches them.
Its a certainty.

Let others make their own beds. That's my advice to you. I'm not afraid to state my views. But I am indeed afraid to make preliminary judgments, because not everything we think is in fact "certain!"

We have neighbors who are Mormons, my brother is a retired pastor who loves witnessing to JWS, I have Catholic friends who are genuine Christian brothers--Filipinos, and I agree with much that Calvin believed. In your haste to condemn you may lose connection with the people who want to bring to Salvation!

I'm not entirely disagreeing with you. To me, it's all about "tone." It's all about *motive.* Do you want to save these people? Then approach them accordingly--speak the truth, but do it "in love."

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Faith is not required to believe a certainty.

How much energy do we expend attempting to promote salvation as a certainty?

All the reams of apologetics to make the mystery of faith appear to be a certainty.

Were we saved by grace through certainty, or saved by grace through faith?

]

Faith is the substance of things hoped for. the evidence of things not seen.. The word means to have an "assurance"

we have no confident hope. we really have no faith.