A Question for Jehovah's Witnesses

[The Learner]

Lol Marks! Sovereignty doesn't learn!

And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man. Luke 2:52

Marks, is it possible for a son to grow and learn wisdom while still being obedient? Do you realize how insane your belief is when you align it with the above verse? God growing in favour with God?

(removed harsh comment for fear of offence)

Your model doesn't work...you know it, but your paradigm would need to shift so far so few are able to make that journey.

F2F

Jesus being fully man can learn. His God part relates to nature.

 

[The Learner]

Okay so lets provide Bible truth on this matter. Unfortunately your copy and paste answer failed to deal with Isaiah 9:7 it's context being the Kingdom Age!

Just to revisit the question of HOW Jesus can be called Father in the Kingdom age (Isaiah 9:7) and NOT be God the Father.

1. From the prophetical viewpoint: (and still within Isaiah!)

Isaiah prophesied, "he shall be a *father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah . . . and they shall hang upon him all the glory of his father's house." Isa 22:21-24.

Translators note: Heb “a father to.” The Hebrew term אָב (’av, “father”) is here used metaphorically of one who protects and supports those under his care and authority, like a father does his family. For another example of this metaphorical use of the word, see Job 29:16 (NET NOTES)

So its this Father-Like example that will see Christ exercise justice, wisdom, might, and knowledge as per Isaiah 11 toward the mortal population in the earth during his reign. It is teaching us the Christ will have Father-like characteristics the same of those exhibited in Paul letters:

"I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you. For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers . . ." (1 Cor. 4:14, 15); (inference is Paul showing them Fatherly care in his ministering to their needs)

"As ye know how we exhorted and comforted and charged every one of you, as a father doth his children." (1 Thess. 2:11).

@Learner, it's important when studying the Bible you understand the context and how certain words are used to express truth. So often Christians force notions upon the Word which are not there!

2. Terminology

We are called Brethren are we not? 1 Thess 2:14; Heb. 2:11 etc proves so! though we are also called children for example:

"I and the children which God hath given me." Heb. 2:13 cmp Isa. 8:17, 18.

Christ is the father of these children since he is the means by which we are newly born. John 3:3, 7. (This does not make Jesus God, or Father, only that he is able to play the role of Father in his care and protection of us - also in him is LIFE.

This is the seed (offspring) which Christ shall see and be satisfied.

Isaiah 53:10 Though the Lord desired to crush him and make him ill, once restitution is made, he will see descendants (by faith!) and enjoy long life, and the Lord’s purpose will be accomplished through him. Is 53:10.

Psalms 45:16 Your sons will carry on the dynasty of your ancestors; you will make them princes throughout the land. This verse is Messianic as indicated by vs. 6 and Heb. 1:8, 9 where it is quoted in a context referring to Christ.

Did you notice how many passages came from Isaiah? And how many are quoted in the NT?

Jesus Christ is the perfect manifestation of the Father in every aspect though he is not The Father or God Himself - a Son sitting on the right hand of the Father on High.

F2F

I have characteristics of my Father and I am not him.

Hebrew is my first languge. the phrase in question has to do with him being eternal. It is not a name or label. Like mighty G_d refers to him being mighty., not a label.

 

[The Learner]

You didn't actually address my point, only why you didn't think it could be true. But my point is valid.

Insane? Calm down, man. Offended? No need to project. "Harsh comment" . . . scary! Oh, and, "You know it . . .", claim of intellectual dishonesty.

This is all the kind of stuff I normally hear when someone wants to refute me, but cannot. So they throw rocks, which is not as meaningful.

Jesus is in fact YHWH, our Creator God, and this is one more passage that teaches us this. Your bad mouthing aside. It's a pity you can't keep on topic, and feel the need to make me your topic. Considering you don't even really know me.

Much love!

 

[The Learner]

I think you will find historically speaking your inability to engage with the text is the issue. Failure to listen "have ears to hear"...is the same as failing the Grace of God (root of bitterness or defilement). In your case you defilement comes from not knowing the one true God but rather you have a god who you have made in your own image. Aunty Jane most of the time includes supporting Scripture as do I, and while I have seen you misquote Scripture many many times, you always fail to engage with the text. The Acts 2:23 incident is a case in point.

What you do is speak at the text with your own thoughts and beliefs - you don't allow the text to talk to you - which is having ears to hear.

Hope that helps
F2F

The first time Jesus predicted His death is detailed in Matthew 16:21–23, Mark 8:31–32, and Luke 9:21–22. Jesus had just fed the multitudes, and He said that the “Son of Man must suffer many things” (Mark 8:31); be rejected by the elders, chief priests, and scribes; be killed; and be raised again. Peter then rashly began to rebuke Jesus, and Christ responded, “Get behind me, Satan!” (Matthew 16:33; Mark 8:33). Jesus knew that His death must happen. It was necessary in God’s plan to save the world.

Jesus predicted His death a second time in Matthew 17:22–23, Mark 9:30–32, and Luke 9:43–45. This occurred shortly after the Transfiguration, when Peter, James, and John saw Christ in His heavenly glory. Perhaps this was the reason the disciples were so confused by Jesus telling them He was going to die. At this point, they believed His kingdom was just around the corner. Despite their lack of understanding, they were “afraid to ask” for clarification (Mark 9:32; Luke 9:45).

Matthew 20:17–19, Mark 10:32–34, and Luke 18:31–34 describe the third time Jesus predicted His death. He spoke to His disciples as they were heading up toward Jerusalem for Passover, and He told them how He would be mocked, scourged, crucified, and then rise again. On this occasion also, the disciples did not understand Jesus’ saying because the meaning was hidden from them. They would soon learn what Jesus meant in the events of Good Friday and following.

The Gospel of John gives a few more predictions of Jesus’s death, but they are slightly more subtle. For instance, when Mary anointed Jesus with the costly perfume, and Judas asked if she should have sold it for the poor, Christ said, “Leave her alone, so that she may keep it for the day of my burial. For the poor you always have with you, but you do not always have me” (John 12:7–8). While not an explicit prediction like the previous three, this statement of Jesus clearly pointed to His coming death and burial. Again, in John 13:33, Jesus hinted that His time was short as He told the disciples, “Where I am going you cannot come.” Finally, in John 14:25, Jesus talked about giving the Holy Spirit in His absence, which hinted at His death as well as the future of the church.

Jesus intentionally came to earth to die for our sins. Jesus gave His disciples predictions about His death and the events that followed “so that when it does take place you may believe” (John 14:29).

 

[The Learner]

The key to understanding Jesus’ seeming lack of knowledge in this matter lies in the nature of the Incarnation. When the Son of God became a man, He remained fully God, but He also took on a true human nature. Jesus retained all the attributes of divinity, yet, as a man, He voluntarily restricted their use. This was part of the “self-emptying” or self-renunciation spoken of in Philippians 2:6–8. When Christ entered our world, He laid aside the privileges that had been His in heaven. Rather than stay on His throne in heaven, Jesus “made himself nothing” (as the NIV translates Philippians 2:7). When He came to earth, “he gave up his divine privileges” (NLT). He veiled His glory, and He chose to occupy the position of a servant.

There were times when Jesus publicly manifested His divine knowledge and power on earth (John 2:25; 11:43 –44). On those occasions, Jesus’ demonstrations of His divinity were directed by the Father. On other occasions, He had no such directive from the Father, and He kept His glory veiled. On all occasions, Jesus obeyed the Father’s will: “I always do what pleases him,” He said (John 8:29).

So, when Jesus said He did not know when He would return, He was actively humbling Himself and taking the form of a servant (see Philippians 2:7–8). Since no other mortal knows the time of Jesus’ return—that information is the Father’s alone (Matthew 24:36)—Jesus voluntarily restricted His knowledge on that point. It was part of Jesus’ submission to the Father (see John 5:30; 6:38; 8:28–29) and His mission to live a human life.

Some things Jesus apparently chose to “give up the rights” to be privy to during His earthly ministry. The knowledge of when He would return was one of those things. Jesus, now exalted in heaven, surely knows all, including the timing of His second coming.

 

[The Learner]

If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken— John 10:35

If ain't broke why does it not wash?

F2F

John 10:25-39

Easy-to-Read Version

​

25 Jesus answered, “I told you already, but you did not believe. I do miracles in my Father’s name. These miracles show who I am. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice. I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give my sheep eternal life. They will never die, and no one can take them out of my hand. 29 My Father is the one who gave them to me, and he is greater than all.[a] No one can steal my sheep out of his hand. 30 The Father and I are one.”
31 Again the Jews there picked up stones to kill Jesus. 32 But he said to them, “The many wonderful things you have seen me do are from the Father. Which of these good things are you killing me for?”
33 They answered, “We are not killing you for any good thing you did. But you say things that insult God. You are only a man, but you say you are the same as God! That is why we are trying to kill you!”
34 Jesus answered, “It is written in your law that God said, ‘I said you are gods.’ 35 This Scripture called those people gods—the people who received God’s message. And Scripture is always true. 36 So why do you accuse me of insulting God for saying, ‘I am God’s Son’? I am the one God chose and sent into the world. 37 If I don’t do what my Father does, then don’t believe what I say. 38 But if I do what my Father does, you should believe in what I do. You might not believe in me, but you should believe in the things I do. Then you will know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.”
39 They tried to get Jesus again, but he escaped from them.

Psalm 82

Easy-to-Read Version

​

One of Asaph’s songs of praise.​

82 God stands in the assembly of the gods.[a]
He stands as judge among the judges.
2 He says, “How long will you judge unfairly
and show special favors to the wicked?” Selah
3 “Defend the poor and orphans.
Protect the rights of the poor.
4 Help those who are poor and helpless.
Save them from those who are evil.
5 “They[b] don’t know what is happening.
They don’t understand!
They don’t know what they are doing.
Their world is falling down around them!”
6 I, God Most High, say,
“You are gods,[c] my own sons.
7 But you will die as all people must die.
Your life will end like that of any ruler.”
8 Get up, God! You be the judge!
You be the leader over all the nations!

Footnotes​

1. Psalm 82:1 assembly of the gods Other nations taught that El (God) and the other gods met together to decide what to do with the people on earth. But many times kings and leaders were also called “gods.” So this psalm may be God’s warning to the leaders of Israel.
2. Psalm 82:5 They This might mean that the poor don’t understand what is happening. Or it might mean that the “gods” or leaders don’t understand that they are ruining the world by not being fair and by not doing what is right.
3. Psalm 82:6 gods Or “judges.”

 

[The Learner]

Col 1 By Jesus all things were created.

Jesus is God!

 

[The Learner]

Another weird reply.....sorry mate, I am not on your wavelength at all.....there is again no question to answer.....how can I answer a question you do not ask? And I will ignore you if you frustrate me with posts that make no sense.....what am I supposed to say?

 

[The Learner]

Please read my replies. I will write thoughtful answers that will actually address the things you say. You keep replying by repeating the very same things that I already gave answers to by using Scripture. I suggest you review post #1886 and #2078.

 

[The Learner]

read to here, I think

I am in a lot of physical pain today

 

[quietthinker]

Another weird reply.....sorry mate, I am not on your wavelength at all.....there is again no question to answer.....how can I answer a question you do not ask? And I will ignore you if you frustrate me with posts that make no sense.....what am I supposed to say?

When you know someone you can be witness of them. When you don't know them you can't be a witness of them.
How is it you do not understand this?

 

[face2face]

You dont get it f2f. Quoting someone does not qualify as an introduction to them....or didn't you hear the question?

No Quiet, its you who doesn't get it...you make rash uninformed statements without considering the Word of God and then you back track when you find you have "done it again!" You poo poo the Scripture only to find that within them is the same Word which raised Christ and gave him Life. Maybe one day you will have the humility to say "yeah I got that wrong and I should study to show myself more approved than I think", maybe then you wont be in this situation.
F2F

 

[quietthinker]

No Quiet, its you who doesn't get it...you make rash uninformed statements without considering the Word of God and then you back track when you find you have "done it again!" You poo poo the Scripture only to find that within them is the same Word which raised Christ and gave him Life. Maybe one day you will have the humility to say "yeah I got that wrong and I should study to show myself more approved than I think", maybe then you wont be in this situation.
F2F

and your process avoids the question.

 

[face2face]

and your process avoids the question.

You're having a conversation in your own mind Quiet.

Try retracting your previous comment about the Word of God not being able to cleanse.

Let's start here and then we can chat!

F2F

 

[quietthinker]

You're having a conversation in your own mind Quiet.

Try retracting your previous comment about the Word of God not being able to cleanse.

Let's start here and then we can chat!

F2F

perhaps you can point out where what you claim I said was said?
Your false charges, even in the previous post #2132 expose you f2f

 

[face2face]

perhaps you can point out where what you claim I said was said?
Your false charges, even in the previous post #2132 expose you f2f

"It (Scripture) hasn't got anything in it that'll clean" your words not mine!

 

[quietthinker]

View attachment 46369
"It (Scripture) hasn't got anything in it that'll clean.

thats a very convenient distortion....further digging your hole deeper f2f while revealing the slippery nature of your approach.
My statement you quoted above is referring to your statement, not the scripture.

 

[face2face]

thats a very convenient distortion....further digging your hole deeper f2f while revealing the slippery nature of your approach.
My statement you quoted above is referring to your statement, not the scripture.

The statement was true then? Scripture cannot be broken unlike your constant misuse of it?

 

[face2face]

Firstly, you do understand I can make the same charges against you don't you?
Secondly, if quoting scripture is the big elixir to everything, I'm sure you are aware that Satan quoted scripture to Jesus?....oh, wait a minute, that's right, you don't believe in Satan as a supernatural evil being....ah yes, I recall you trying to find scriptures that underpin that view!

Correct, many have tried to prove fallen angel theology without success. You will find it's impossible to prove error. We are told in Psalm 91 & 103 precisely what Angels are and are not.

Notice the red text?

I'm sorry, your approach does not wash......and I also know why it doesn't wash.

So, seeing you engaged the issue, perhaps you could tell me of Jehovah?

Why do you call Him Jehovah?

 

[quietthinker]

Correct, many have tried to prove fallen angel theology without success. You will find it's impossible to prove error. We are told in Psalm 91 & 103 precisely what Angels are and are not.

Notice the red text?

Why do you call Him Jehovah?

Your desperation is patently evident f2f!