Was Mary sinless?

[Augustin56]

Part 2.
The question remains: how do we know that Mary is an exception to the norm of “all have sinned”? And more specifically, is there biblical support for the Immaculate Conception? Yes, there is. Indeed, there is much biblical support, but in this brief article I shall cite just three examples, among the eight, as I said before, that give us biblical support for this ancient doctrine of the Faith.

1. Luke 1:28
And the angel Gabriel came to [Mary] and said, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!” But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and considered in her mind what sort of greeting this might be. And the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.”

Many Protestants will insist that this text is little more than a common greeting of the Archangel Gabriel to Mary. “What would this have to do with an immaculate conception?” Yet the truth is, according to Mary herself, that this was no common greeting. The text reveals Mary to have been “greatly troubled at the saying and considered in her mind what sort of greeting this might be” (Luke 1:29). What was it about this greeting that was so uncommon for Mary to react this way? There are at least two key reasons:

First, according to many biblical scholars as well as Pope St. John Paul II, the angel did more than simply greet Mary. The angel actually communicated a new name or title to her. In Greek, the greeting was kaire, kekaritomene, or “hail, full of grace.” Generally speaking, when one greeted another with kaire, a name or title would almost be expected to be found in the immediate context. “Hail, king of the Jews” in John 19:3 and “Claudias Lysias, to his Excellency the governor Felix, greeting” (Acts 23:26) are two biblical examples of this. The fact that the angel replaces Mary’s name in the greeting with “full of grace” was anything but common. This would be analogous to me speaking to one of our tech guys at Catholic Answers and saying, “Hello, he who fixes computers.” In our culture, I would just be considered weird. But in Hebrew culture, names, and name changes, tell us something that is permanent about the character and calling of the one named. Just recall the name changes of Abram to Abraham (changed from “father” to “father of the multitudes”) in Genesis 17:5, Saray to Sarah (“my princess” to “princess”) in Genesis 17:15, and Jacob to Israel (“supplanter” to “he who prevails with God”) in Genesis 32:28.

In each case, the names reveal something permanent about the one named. Abraham and Sarah transition from being a “father” and “princess” of one family to being “father” and “princess” or “mother” of the entire people of God (see Isa. 51:1-2; Rom. 4:1-18). They become patriarch and matriarch of God’s people forever. Jacob/Israel becomes the patriarch whose name, “he who prevails with God,” continues forever in the Church, which is called “the Israel of God” (Gal. 6:16). The people of God will forever “prevail with God” in the image of the patriarch Jacob, who was not just named Israel, but truly became “he who prevails with God.”

An entire tome could be written concerning the significance of God’s revelation of his name in Exodus 3:14-15 as I AM. God revealed to us volumes about his divine nature in and through the revelation of his name: God is pure being with no beginning and no end, he is all perfection, etc.

When you add to this the fact that St. Luke uses the perfect passive participle, kekaritomene, as his “name” for Mary, we get deeper insight into the meaning of Mary’s new name. This word literally means “she who has been graced” in a completed sense. This verbal adjective, “graced,” is not just describing a simple past action. Greek has the aorist tense for that. The perfect tense is used to indicate that an action has been completed in the past, resulting in a present state of being. That’s Mary’s name! So what does it tell us about Mary? Well, the average Christian is not completed in grace and in a permanent sense (see Phil. 3:8-12). But according to the angel, Mary is. You and I sin, not because of grace, but because of a lack of grace, or a lack of our cooperation with grace, in our lives. This greeting of the angel is one clue into the unique character and calling of the immaculate Mother of God.

One objection to the above is rooted in Ephesians 2:8-9. Here, St. Paul uses the perfect tense and passive voice when he says, “For by grace you have been saved.” Why wouldn’t we then conclude that all Christians are complete in salvation for all time? There seems to be an inconsistency in usage here.

Actually, the Catholic Church understands that Christians are completed in grace when they are baptized. In context, Paul is speaking about the initial grace of salvation in Ephesians 2. The verses leading up to Ephesians 2:8-9, make this clear:

We all lived in the passions of our flesh, following the desires of body and mind, and so we were by nature children of wrath . . . even when we were dead in trespasses and sins (vv. 3-5).

But there is no indication here, as there is with Mary, that the Christian is going to stay that way. In other words, Ephesians 2:8-9 does not confer a name.

In fact, because of original sin, we can guarantee that though we are certainly perfected in grace through baptism, ordinarily speaking, we will not stay that way after we are baptized—that is, if we live for very long afterward (see 1 John 1:8)! There may be times in the lives of Christians when they are completed or perfected in grace temporarily—for example, after going to confession or receiving the Eucharist well disposed. We let God, of course, be the judge of this, not us, as Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 4:3-4:

I do not even judge myself. I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted (Gr., justified). It is the Lord who judges me.

But only Mary is given the name “full of grace,” and in the perfect tense, indicating that this permanent state of Mary was completed—that she was conceived immaculate.

 

[Nephesh]

Are you reading my posts?

Asked and answered.

Much love!

I read your answers to questions that you asked yourself in post #17.

What question do you want an answer to?

Do you agree that our God, Who "with all things are possible" (Matt. 19:26), was capable of preserving the soul of the Mother of God from becoming subject to the law of the first parents (inheriting original sin)? Or, is my impression that you refuse to answer valid?

 

[marks]

Or, is my impression that you refuse to answer valid?

As I've already said, yes of course God could have created an untainted person to bear the Christ. He could have ordained that Jesus would be born from a squid but He didn't.

You can surmise and speculate until the cows come home, the fact is, God has said all over His Book that all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory. Naturally, Jesus, being God Himself, is exempt. None other is. This has been stated repeatedly throughout the Bible, OT, NT, all sin. Except Jesus.

Much love!

 

[Jude Thaddeus]

But only Mary is given the name “full of grace,” and in the perfect tense, indicating that this permanent state of Mary was completed—that she was conceived immaculate.

Luke 1:28 [RSV]: "And he came to her and said, 'Hail, O favored one, the Lord is with you!'"

[The RSVCE translates kecharitomene ("favored one" above) as "full of grace"]

Catholics believe that this verse is an indication of the sinlessness of Mary - itself the kernel of the more developed doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. But that is not apparent at first glance (especially if the verse is translated "highly favored" - which does not bring to mind sinlessness in present-day language). I have done a great deal of exegesis and analysis of this verse, in dialogue with Evangelical Protestants, and so I shall draw from that thought and experience in this chapter.

Protestants are hostile to the notions of Mary's freedom from actual sin and her Immaculate Conception (in which God freed her from original sin from the moment of her conception) because they feel that this makes her a sort of goddess and improperly set apart from the rest of humanity. They do not believe that it was fitting for God to set her apart in such a manner, even for the purpose of being the Mother of Jesus Christ, and don't see that this is "fitting" or "appropriate" (as Catholics do).

The great Baptist Greek scholar A.T. Robertson exhibits a Protestant perspective, but is objective and fair-minded, in commenting on this verse as follows:

"Highly favoured" (kecharitomene). Perfect passive participle of charitoo and means endowed with grace (charis), enriched with grace as in Ephesians. 1:6, . . . The Vulgate gratiae plena "is right, if it means 'full of grace which thou hast received'; wrong, if it means 'full of grace which thou hast to bestow'" (Plummer).
(Robertson, II, 13)​

Kecharitomene has to do with God’s grace, as it is derived from the Greek root, charis (literally, "grace"). Thus, in the KJV, charis is translated "grace" 129 out of the 150 times that it appears. Greek scholar Marvin Vincent noted that even Wycliffe and Tyndale (no enthusiastic supporters of the Catholic Church) both rendered kecharitomene in Luke 1:28 as "full of grace" and that the literal meaning was "endued with grace" (Vincent, I, 259).

Likewise, well-known Protestant linguist W.E. Vine, defines it as "to endue with Divine favour or grace" (Vine, II, 171). All these men (except Wycliffe, who probably would have been, had he lived in the 16th century or after it) are Protestants, and so cannot be accused of Catholic translation bias. Even a severe critic of Catholicism like James White can’t avoid the fact that kecharitomene (however translated) cannot be divorced from the notion of grace, and stated that the term referred to "divine favor, that is, God’s grace" (White, 201).

Of course, Catholics agree that Mary has received grace. This is assumed in the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception: it was a grace from God which could not possibly have had anything to do with Mary's personal merit, since it was granted by God at the moment of her conception, to preserve her from original sin (as appropriate for the one who would bear God Incarnate in her very body).

The Catholic argument hinges upon the meaning of kecharitomene. For Mary this signifies a state granted to her, in which she enjoys an extraordinary fullness of grace. Charis often refers to a power or ability which God grants in order to overcome sin (and this is how we interpret Luke 1:28). This sense is a biblical one, as Greek scholar Gerhard Kittel points out:

Grace is the basis of justification and is also manifested in it ([Rom.] 5:20-21). Hence grace is in some sense a state (5:2), although one is always called into it (Gal. 1:6), and it is always a gift on which one has no claim. Grace is sufficient (1 Cor. 1:29) . . . The work of grace in overcoming sin displays its power (Rom. 5:20-21) . . .
(Kittel, 1304-1305)​

Protestant linguist W.E. Vine concurs that charis can mean "a state of grace, e.g., Rom. 5:2; 1 Pet. 5:12; 2 Pet. 3:18" (Vine, II, 170). One can construct a strong biblical argument from analogy, for Mary's sinlessness. For St. Paul, grace (charis) is the antithesis and "conqueror" of sin (emphases added in the following verses):

Romans 6:14: "For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace." (cf. Rom 5:17,20-21, 2 Cor 1:12, 2 Timothy 1:9)

We are saved by grace, and grace alone:

Ephesians 2:8-10: "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God - not because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (cf. Acts 15:11, Rom 3:24, 11:5, Eph 2:5, Titus 2:11, 3:7, 1 Pet 1:10)

Thus, the biblical argument outlined above proceeds as follows:
1. Grace saves us.
2. Grace gives us the power to be holy and righteous and without sin.

Therefore, for a person to be full of grace is both to be saved and to be completely, exceptionally holy. It's a "zero-sum game": the more grace one has, the less sin. One might look at grace as water, and sin as the air in an empty glass (us). When you pour in the water (grace), the sin (air) is displaced. A full glass of water, therefore, contains no air (see also, similar zero-sum game concepts in 1 John 1:7,9; 3:6,9; 5:18). To be full of grace is to be devoid of sin. Thus we might re-apply the above two propositions:

1. To be full of the grace that saves is surely to be saved.

2. To be full of the grace that gives us the power to be holy, righteous, and without sin is to be fully without sin, by that same grace.

A deductive, biblical argument for the Immaculate Conception, with premises derived directly from Scripture, might look like this:

1. The Bible teaches that we are saved by God's grace.

2. To be "full of" God's grace, then, is to be saved.

3. Therefore, Mary is saved (Luke 1:28).

4. The Bible teaches that we need God's grace to live a holy life, free from sin.

5. To be "full of" God's grace is thus to be so holy that one is sinless.

6. Therefore, Mary is holy and sinless.

7. The essence of the Immaculate Conception is sinlessness.

8. Therefore, the Immaculate Conception, in its essence, can be directly deduced from Scripture.

The only way out of the logic would be to deny one of the two premises, and hold either that grace does not save or that grace is not that power which enables one to be sinless and holy. It is highly unlikely that any Evangelical Protestant would take such a position, so the argument is a very strong one, because it proceeds upon their own premises.

In this fashion, the essence of the Immaculate Conception (i.e., the sinlessness of Mary) is proven from biblical principles and doctrines accepted by every orthodox Protestant. Certainly all mainstream Christians agree that grace is required both for salvation and to overcome sin. So in a sense my argument is only one of degree, deduced (almost by common sense, I would say) from notions that all Christians hold in common.


Read more: https://www.catholicfidelity.com/apologetics-topics/mary/full-of-grace-and-the-linguistic-and-exegetical-considerations-by-dave-armstrong/

 

[Davy]

Wiki:


Well, except for Jesus, Romans 3:

Mary sinned just as everyone else have, excepting Lord Jesus Who was GOD come in the flesh, and was without sin.

Thus Mary worship is actually a sin itself.

 

[Augustin56]

Mary sinned just as everyone else have, excepting Lord Jesus Who was GOD come in the flesh, and was without sin.

Thus Mary worship is actually a sin itself.

I can see how you can fall into that error by reading an English translation of the Bible and filtering it through 21st century cultural lenses with an outcome in mind to begin with.

But, the Bible says that Mary was sinless. Worshiping Mary as if she were God is, indeed a sin. However, I would question your understanding of what true worship is. St. Augustine defined the worship we are to give only God as latria. The Saints are due honor and veneration, like the Jews did to the Ark of the Covenant. For that, he used the word dulia, except when referring to Mary, in which case he used the word hyperdulia.

You are to be commended for seeking God, which you are doing because of His grace. Keep seeking the truth, honestly and objectively, asking the Holy Spirit to guide you.

 

[Davy]

I can see how you can fall into that error by reading an English translation of the Bible and filtering it through 21st century cultural lenses with an outcome in mind to begin with.

But, the Bible says that Mary was sinless. Worshiping Mary as if she were God is, indeed a sin. However, I would question your understanding of what true worship is. St. Augustine defined the worship we are to give only God as latria. The Saints are due honor and veneration, like the Jews did to the Ark of the Covenant. For that, he used the word dulia, except when referring to Mary, in which case he used the word hyperdulia.

You are to be commended for seeking God, which you are doing because of His grace. Keep seeking the truth, honestly and objectively, asking the Holy Spirit to guide you.

Your funny! Keep on sinning with Mary worship if that's what you think; I won't change your deception, but don't expect Lord Jesus to be so forgiving when He returns.

 

[Nephesh]

Mary sinned just as everyone else have, excepting Lord Jesus Who was GOD come in the flesh, and was without sin.

In 1 Pet. 2:22, it doesn't say, "only Christ committed no sin," but rather, "Christ ... Who committed no sin." Jesus was God Incarnate, but also fully human, susceptible to the temptations of evil, and through His will, in cooperation with God the Father's help, He didn't commit sins. He was a human exception to the "all have sinned," including children who've died without having committed sins. For these reasons, Rom. 3:23 isn't proof that Jesus's Mother sinned, nor that She can't also be an exception. Do you agree that our God, Who "with all things are possible" (Matt. 19:26), was capable of preserving the soul of the Mother of God from becoming subject to the law of the first parents (inheriting original sin)?

 

[marks]

5. To be "full of" God's grace is thus to be so holy that one is sinless.

While this argument may sound good, in fact there is nothing in that passage to say when such grace - assuming it were to actually mean without sin - is bestowed.

@Augustin56 has asserted that the perfect tense of the verb means "at birth", but in fact that isn't part of the meaning, it simply means that having started, the action continues. But not when it started.

There is no such passage in Scripture which declares Mary to be sinless from conception. Not at all.

Much love!

 

[marks]

I can see how you can fall into that error by reading an English translation of the Bible and filtering it through 21st century cultural lenses with an outcome in mind to begin with.

I can see how you can fall into that error by accepting your church teaching over the actual reading of Scripture, and filtering through their lens that they impose on the text.

There, do you see how that works?

This is why this kind of speaking is vanity. Anyone can do it, and it has no more relevance or meaning when I do it as when you do it.

Much love!

 

[Augustin56]

Your funny! Keep on sinning with Mary worship if that's what you think; I won't change your deception, but don't expect Lord Jesus to be so forgiving when He returns.

The most prominent Protestant reformer, Martin Luther, supported the doctrines associated with venerating and honoring Mary. Martin Luther firmly believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary, in her role as the Mother of God, her reign as the Queen of Heaven, and in her immaculate conception. Luther wrote, “It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary’s soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God’s gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin.” Luther firmly asserted here and in other sermons and writings that Mary was conceived without original sin so that she might become the Mother of God.

Luther’s high Mariology did not end with support of theological doctrines, and it must be noted that many of his writings on Mary are dated well after his break from the Roman Catholic Church. While he appropriately warned against treating Mary as a savior and neglecting Christ, he encouraged devotion to the Blessed Virgin and prayer for her intercession. He wrote in his Personal Prayer Book, “Our prayer should include the Mother of God … What the Hail Mary says is that all glory should be given to God, using these words: “Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus Christ. Amen!”

This dissing of the mother of Jesus is something that arose late in history, by people who were untrained and uneducated in theology, trying to reinvent the theological wheel from scratch. There is no little amount of (clinical) ignorance involved in both Scripture and theology that comes up with your viewpoint. And I'm sure you didn't come up with this on your own. You were trained/taught by others who were equally misled.

One of the biggest hurdles most converts to the Catholic Church from Protestantism have to clear is Mary. But, with God's grace, they do it. And this even includes many well-known pastors and well-eduated Protestants.

Here are some conversion stories (I can provide many, many more, if you like) from the Coming Home Network, an organization designed to assist Protestants converting to the Catholic Church:

Church of Christ Minister: How a Church of Christ Minister Became Catholic - Lawain McNeil - The Coming Home Network

Evangelical Minister:

Justin Hibbard - Former Evangelical Minister - The Coming Home Network​

Share via: Facebook Twitter LinkedIn Email More Justin Hibbard grew up in a Seventh Day Baptist congregation, but spent time in a number of different Evangelical communities over the years.
chnetwork.org

Methodist Minister: Matt Gerald - Former Methodist Protestant - The Coming Home Network

Pentecostal Minister:

A Oneness Pentecostal Minister Becomes Catholic - The Coming Home Network​

Share via: Facebook Twitter LinkedIn Email More Formation and Family History I was born into a Catholic family in May of 1953, baptized as a baby, went on to do
chnetwork.org

Seventh Day Adventist Minister: How a Seventh-day Adventist Minister Became Catholic - Norman bin Yazid - The Coming Home Network

Presbyterian Minister:

A Presbyterian Minister's Journey to Catholicism - Dean Waldt - The Coming Home Network​

Share via: Facebook Twitter LinkedIn Email More As a young Christian, Dean Waldt wanted to serve the Lord with his life, but his first experience of ordained ministry left him
chnetwork.org

Evangelical Seminary Professor:

An Evangelical Seminary Professor Becomes Catholic - Dr. Jason Reed - The Coming Home Network​

Share via: Facebook Twitter LinkedIn Email More Dr. Jason Reed’s desire to follow Christ led him to pursue academic study in theology and philosophy. He went on teach those disciplines
chnetwork.org

Southern Baptist Preacher: Trey Plummer - Former Southern Baptist Preacher - The Coming Home Network

Former Baptist Minister:

Dr. Ian Murphy - Former Baptist Minister - The Coming Home Network​

Share via: Facebook Twitter LinkedIn Email More Dr. Ian Murphy returns to the show, having recently written his memoir, Dying to Live: From Agnostic to Baptist to Catholic. Ian grew up
chnetwork.org

FourSquare Pastor: A Foursquare Pastor Who Started Agreeing With the Catholics - Kenny Burchard - The Coming Home Network

There are many, many more (132 pages) of conversions you can browse through, if you can get past your prejudice, here:

Conversion Stories Archives - The Coming Home Network

 

[Nephesh]

As I've already said, yes of course God could have created an untainted person to bear the Christ.

Is that your way of agreeing that you agree God, Who "with all things are possible" (Matt. 19:26), was capable of preserving the soul of the Mother of God from becoming subject to the law of the first parents (inheriting original sin)?

 

[marks]

Is that your way of agreeing that God was capable of preserving the soul of the Mother of God from becoming subject to the law of the first parents (inheriting original sin)?

God could have created us all looking like kangaroos but He didn't.

I've answered you over and over, I'm not sure what the disconnect is. I suggest you believe the Bible when it tells us all sin. And "Mother of God", what a misleading title!

Much love!

 

[Nephesh]

I've answered you over and over, I'm not sure what the disconnect is.

I want to be sure I'm understanding your answer, which you can help with by answering this question: Does the answer you gave mean you agree that God, Who "with all things are possible" (Matt. 19:26), was capable of preserving the soul of the Mother of God (or Jesus's Mother) from becoming subject to the law of the first parents (inheriting original sin)?

 

[marks]

I want to be sure I'm understanding your answer, which you can help with by answering this question: Does the answer you gave mean you agree that God was capable of preserving the soul of the Mother of God (or Jesus's Mother), from becoming subject to the law of the first parents (inheriting original sin)?

Romans 3:21-26 KJV
21) But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24) Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26) To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Was Mary justified by her faith in Jesus?

Much love!

 

[Nephesh]

Romans 3:21-26 KJV
21) But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24) Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26) To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Was Mary justified by her faith in Jesus?

Much love!

Can we finish our current discussion before starting another? Refer back to post #34 and answer the question please.

 

[marks]

Can we finish our current discussion before starting another? Refer back to post #35 and answer the question please.

1 Kings 8:45-46 KJV
45) Then hear thou in heaven their prayer and their supplication, and maintain their cause.
46) If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near;

Did Solomon know something that maybe you do not?

Much love!

 

[Nephesh]

1 Kings 8:45-46 KJV
45) Then hear thou in heaven their prayer and their supplication, and maintain their cause.
46) If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near;

Did Solomon know something that maybe you do not?

Much love!

Your refusing to answer my question in post #34 says that you think God wasn't capable of preserving the soul of the Mother of God (or Jesus's Mother), from becoming subject to the law of the first parents (inheriting original sin), and thus you deny that with God all things are possibe (Matt. 19:26).

 

[marks]

Your refusing to answer my question in post #34 says that you think God wasn't capable of preserving the soul of the Mother of God (or Jesus's Mother), from becoming subject to the law of the first parents (inheriting original sin), and thus you deny that with God all things are possibe (Matt. 19:26).

No, as stated ad nauseum I'm not going to keep answering the same question over and over and over. 3 or 4 times should be sufficient, don't you think?

Romans 3:19 KJV
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Perhaps Paul knew something you do not?

Much love!

 

[Augustin56]

No, as stated ad nauseum I'm not going to keep answering the same question over and over and over. 3 or 4 times should be sufficient, don't you think?

Romans 3:19 KJV
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Perhaps Paul knew something you do not?

Much love!

Marks, point of order here. Just a suggestion.

If you're going to throw out Scripture snippets, it would help the conversation to provide your personal interpretation along with an explanation as to why that's relevent to the point being discussed. I suspect you are assuming that everyone will always interpret Scripture the same way. That won't happen, I assure you. We have literally tens of thousands of Protestant denominations, all based on someone's personal interpretation, and they disagree one with another to the point to where they think they need to form yet another denomination.

So, provide your Scripture, along with the appropriate context and explanation, and why you think this applies to the point being discussed. I think the results will make the discussion far fruitful.