God is probably more than three?

[ScottA]

When Paul was preaching to the people from Athens, he made a statement about God that I find so deep that I won't never be able to aprehend: For in him we live and move and have our being (Acts 17:28)

These are my two cents, for what is worth:

God is not a multiplicity, but One.
We, from our human perspective, see ourselves as a multiplicity, and since we "live, move and have our being" in God. It is like if God would manifest in each one of us.

To me it is like the sea.
You stand in front of the ocean and perceive one sea.
But that sea has billions of beings, which have their own distinct identity (fish, algae, whales, shrimp, bacteria). None of them is the sea. There is not a multiplicity of seas. However, all of them "live, move and have their being" in the sea. If any of these marine beings would want to jump and live out of the sea, they would certainly die. They can only live and meet their purpose in the sea.
So God does not want us to jump out of the sea ( to try to live a life in sin.. a life separated from God).
He wants us to return to the ecosystem when we are connected to all other living things and with the Eternal and One Sea.

View attachment 46052

This is the great mystery of life and of God, wherein God has created the illusion of division in whom there is no division.

Such is the creation of this world: By Light and Energy God has seemingly divided His eternity into the incrementalism of Times. Which accounts for Time and Matter, as Matter is the result of Light and Energy. Space on the other hand, is merely the evidence of the dividing of that which cannot otherwise be divided. While Matter is the cause of the shadows of darkness. Therefore, in the end there is no more sun or moon as the rulers of light and darkness, for the Lord gives us Light; Matter is dissolved; Time is no more; and Space is void again for He is All in All without division, but One.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Beautiful post, @ScottA . Thank you very much for sharing!

One thing that strikes me about Paul's speech in the Areopagus is that those Greek were pagans. Still...

• Paul counted himself along with those pagans as those who "live, move and have their being" in God. Whatever our religion and limitations in our understanding, and the intellectual weaknesses of our dogmas, we are not separated from God.
• Paul validated the notion of a pagan Greek poet that considered mankind as the "offspring" of God. Whatever our religion, God is still our Father. Whatever our sins, He still love us as His children.
• Although Paul points out to the futility of believing in gods made of stone or metal, who dwell in human-made temples and are served by human hands, Paul also validates the cult to the "Unknown God" as worshiping Pau'ls God. The very fact that men recognize themselves as unable to know everything, especially God, is the ground for the action of the Holy Spirit. It is humility, and not arrogance, what makes us approach the true and Only God.

 

[Matthias]

God is One God, but is biblically known by many Names.

Yes. I used his proper name in my post.

I’ve been having a good conversation with @Pancho Frijoles about names of God. One of the names he has offered for my consideration is Ahura Mazda. I don’t believe that is one of the names of my God but he does. I’d be interested in what you think about that particular name.

 

[ScottA]

Yes. I used his proper name in my post.

I’ve been having a good conversation with @Pancho Frijoles about names of God. One of the names he has offered for my consideration is Ahura Mazda. I don’t believe that is one of the names of my God but he does. I’d be interested in what you think about that particular name.

While it is foreign to me, it may not be to God. The tenets appear to be there, but superficially that may also be true of other gods.

On a basic level, I am inclined to default as Paul did with the unknown God...that perhaps even being wrong, may still be an inroad to the One True God. Fortunately, wrong is not a problem for God. We all have been wrong. I like John Lennon's "Imagine" for that matter.

Perhaps this is what Pancho sees it as.

 

[Matthias]

While it is foreign to me, it may not be to God. The tenets appear to be there, but superficially that may also be true of other gods.

On a basic level, I am inclined to default as Paul did with the unknown God...that perhaps even being wrong, may still be an inroad to the One True God. Fortunately, wrong is not a problem for God. We all have been wrong. I like John Lennon's "Imagine" for that matter.

Perhaps this is what Pancho sees it as.

Thanks. Ahura Mazda is the name of the deity of Zoroastrians / Zoroastrianism. I’ll leave it for @Pancho Frijoles to discuss what the Baha’i believe about him with you, if he wants to. I’ve been having a pleasant and interesting conversation with him about it.

 

[JohnDB]

My God is only one -> Yahweh, the God and Father of Jesus Messiah. That will come as no surprise to anyone who has read my posts on the subject.

I came across a Christian yesterday who stated that God is probably more than three. No explanation for the belief was presented.

This is a highly unusual encounter for me but not unprecedented. I‘ve met and spoken extensively with another Christian who believes and teaches that God could be hundreds or thousands.

This thread isn’t about my God, nor is it about the Trinity (which by current policy cannot be discussed - pro or con - on Christianity Board). This thread is solely concerned with the proposition that “God is probably more than three”.

Are there any denominations within Christianity, past or present, which hold as part of their doctrine / teaching that God is probably more than three?

Is there any biblical support for the idea that God is probably more than three?

Finally, is there any support for the softened position that God is possibly more than three?

As far as I understand...
God has revealed Himself to mankind in three distinct persons but still one.

However. After Christians are in Heaven God may reveal more of Himself to Us and the result will be more than three distinct persons...because we will understand more.

 

[Matthias]

As far as I understand...
God has revealed Himself to mankind in three distinct persons but still one.

However. After Christians are in Heaven God may reveal more of Himself to Us and the result will be more than three distinct persons...because we will understand more.

That’s a plausible explanation of what the man may have had in mind. Do you think it‘s a widely held belief? Do you know of any churches, past or present, that promote the belief? (I don’t. I’m thinking that it‘s a private belief. I’m not sure how widespread, or common, it is.)

 

[JohnDB]

That’s a plausible explanation of what the man may have had in mind. Do you think it‘s a widely held belief? Do you know of any churches, past or present, that promote the belief? (I don’t. I’m thinking that it‘s a private belief. I’m not sure how widespread, or common, it is.)

I know of no church denomination that promotes such a theology. Mostly because people have a difficult time already with the Trinity as it is. Going beyond that is even more difficult....and the craziness of pantheon or modalism takes root.

Some popular books already try to promote these things. And to what end result? To sell books or to promote righteous living? (Sell books IMHO)

People have a difficult time with God's Immutability and Emotions together....meaning God is in time and outside of time at the same time (omnipresence and omniscience and especially Sovereign) all being true but not having God be a micromanager.

God is in all, above all....but yet desires a relationship with us...because He made us. God stoops down to our level...we can't reach up to his. Any attempts to do so are laughable at best.

 

[Karl Peters]

God is One God, but is biblically known by many Names.

Yes - God is One God, and yes we read that God is known by many Names. But here is a question for you:

If the church is indeed the body of Christ and Christ is the Word of God and God who took on flesh, then is not the body of One considered to be the One as part of that one?


1 Cor 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.

Jn 1,2 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.

I know I certainly count my arms, legs, eyes, and all the members of my body as part of me and thus as me.

So is the body of Christ who we know is the Word that took on flesh, and was with God and was God, then is ScottA part of the body of God and thus one with God?

 

[Karl Peters]

In response to my last post - I see that God is in me. I hear Him in me and talking to me, and giving me instructions and teachings, which I can follow. And I have seen that in my following the instructions and teachings from Him that sometime power, even the power of God, will flow through me. Five years He had me in a Christian healing ministry and I felt power flow through me at times and I saw miracles happen hundreds of times.

Still, I also know that I am still me. That I also have my thinking, my thoughts, and my actions. So even if I am a "new creature" then it is because He has come into me, and possibly also that I have come into Him as to follow the instructions that He gives me. I certainly don't think I am He, but maybe I become one with Him as I listen to Him and do what He asks of me. Perhaps that is why it is written that they will be or are gods. Certainly there is another I find in me. He told me to come and post today, while I wanted to go try and make some money doing the business that He gave me. I even double checked with Him by asking Him "Lord do you want me to post on the forum?", after I thought I heard Him saying He wanted me to.

I could have said "No". I also could have easily ignored Him, because His first request came across faintly, like a mist in a breeze. But I didn't and came a posted. But did I post what He wanted, and as He wanted it written. I kind of doubt it, but I did post what came to my heart. So maybe. I usually ask Him afterwards, but should talk to Him more while writing. And afterwards He normally goes over what I wrote with me.

Now, if I heard and posted, like now, then He almost always thanks me and give some words of appreciation. Though He often also goes over what I wrote with some comments meant to get me to think. He is still the Teacher, is what I find out. I also find out that He seems to have known what I was going to do before I did it. And He has told me things like, 'A builder chooses a tool according to the work that is needed to be done'. So, I gather He knew perfectly well what He was doing when He asked me to post for Him.

The point I am making is that if a carpenter picks up a hammer and hits you on the head do you say the hammer hit me of the carpenter hit me? Does not the One Builder and Creator of all things then get the credit or blame if you want, for the work He does with the tools He has. Therefore our task is to be one with Him, even as your body is one with you, right?

So is not the answer to "God is probably more than three?" like the title of the thread, would be yes, would it not? Is not the church/body of Christ many more than three?

Jn 10: 34-36 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’[d]? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside— 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?

Is this thread not like the discussion Jesus had with the Pharisees and religious leaders back then?

I know from hearing Him, that He often calls me son.

 

[Karl Peters]

There is a depth of understanding with God. We run across it when reading the Bible, and so much more so when actually talking to the Lord about things, like the verses in the Bible but not exclusively to the verses in the Bible. And this thread gets at one of the more interesting and something that goes very deep with God, and it is simply based on God being One God.

And of course in Christianity we quickly run across this, because we seek Jesus Christ in Christianity. So is He God? Of course as a Christian you answer needs to be "Yes, Jesus Christ is God", otherwise why are we seeking Him and following Him and not God? And then we find that His words come to us via the Holy Spirit, so we have The Father, Son, and Spirit as all being that One God. And already we went so deep that many are left confused just to get to the basics of Christianity. And already too many arguments come about because of this, that even this Christian Forum really doesn't like it discussed, though it is such a basic aspect of Christianity.

Yet understanding come from His mouth and not our leaning on our own understanding!! And so it is that I talk back and forth with Him, and all His sheep should be doing that, right? So, I preach the Word, like He commanded me, to mean Him (Jesus Christ) and that He wants to talk to us. And in so doing that I need to listen to Him, do I not? So I listen to Him and we talk. And with that comes deeper and deeper discussion and more information. Quickly you get past the mere basics, but can you even talk about it to other who have yet to understand the basics?

And one of the things you find is that Jesus Christ is the King over the Kingdom of God. His Father made Him King and gave Him the rule of all things. - Ps 2:6 “I have installed my king on Zion, my holy mountain.”

And as the KING OF KINGS he commands angels, and one of the commands He gives it to watch over us and minister to us. Heb 1:1414 Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

And one of the many angels that He has sent to minster to me is Alfred. Actually his name is All-Afraid, but I call him Alfred. And what he ministered to me was that' we are all afraid to believe where we stand with God.'

That is to say: Can you truly believe that you are sons and daughters of the Most High God - that One God that we are preaching?

If you say, that you can, great, but can you - or are you even afraid to consider that full impact of that meaning?

Jesus could not deny Himself, but those religious leaders back then felt His was a heretic and blasphemed when He said He was the Son of God. And was that not the reason they killed Him on the cross? Perhaps we are right to be afraid, because the world will kill you, as they can. Never-the-less, that is what is written and the meaning of actually being sons and daughters of God is more massive than you can imagine. And Alfred (All-Afraid) ministered in such a way to me.

I mean, if I am a son of the Most High God, even the King on the throne over the Kingdom of Heaven, can I not now go before Him and ask for something? Yes, of course I can!! Indeed, we have not because we have not asked. And will it not be given if it is a good request, at least given at an appropriate time, according to the wisdom of the King, your Father, right? So can we not have access to the Kingdom of God and even the Holy Spirit, if we are indeed sons and daughters of the King?

Luke 11:13 If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

So is it not possible that if you see a person in a wheelchair going by in front of you, that you might ask for that person to be healed, according to your faith as a son of daughter of the KING OF KINGS? Are you afraid that He might not listen to a son or daughter like you, and that you might be embarrassed?

I was! Twice in fact! I have worked in a Christian healing ministry and have seen the Lord do hundreds of miracles through and around me. I have had swelling go down and disappear under my hands when I have prayed for people by laying hands on them. I have even seen legs grow out in front of me. And as mentioned I have been ministered to and had this fear explained to me, so I could get over it as I was able. I even prayed for a man who came in with a walker and left in the strength of the Lord without it. Yet in a parking lot, when the Lord told me that He would heal this lady in that parking lot being pushed around by her husband, I could not find the courage to pray for her.

It is at those moments that you stand there alone, and not one with the Lord, and watch things go by. Yet He later gave me another chance when another member of that healing ministry to come with him to pray for a body in a wheelchair. Indeed, that member had been in a wheelchair himself once, and told that he would never walk again, yet he found the belief in God to ask and get the ability to walk, even run, without that wheelchair, and God answered Him and he walks and can even run. So he could believe for that boy, but I could not.

The point is, can we believe that as sons and daughters of God we can be one with Jesus Christ as He is one with His Father, and so the Holy Spirit of God is sent to us with all the power and authority of God to do what is right in it's time? Or are we afraid to believe it?

The honest answer from me, is "Yes", I can believe and also I am afraid to believe it at same time.

And this brings up back to the depth of the question for this thread. Does God being One God mean that there is only one person who is God, so that not even the person of Jesus Christ or the person of the Holy Spirit are God the Son and God the Spirit? Or does God being One God mean that we can be one with Him if like His only begotten Son, we do and say what He askes?

What does your depth of understanding look like?

Does it look like a man leaning on his own understanding, like I look when the lady and boy in the wheelchair went by me. Or does it look like Jesus who ask for things like "Father forgive them", and made bold statements like "Your forgiven" and by the authority of God given to Him as His Son, miracles happened?

Did we not read where Jesus prayed that we would be one with Him like He was one with His Father? Did Jesus not get His request?

Jn 17: 22,23 The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; 23 I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity

 

[ScottA]

Yes - God is One God, and yes we read that God is known by many Names. But here is a question for you:

If the church is indeed the body of Christ and Christ is the Word of God and God who took on flesh, then is not the body of One considered to be the One as part of that one?


1 Cor 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.

Jn 1,2 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.

I know I certainly count my arms, legs, eyes, and all the members of my body as part of me and thus as me.

So is the body of Christ who we know is the Word that took on flesh, and was with God and was God, then is ScottA part of the body of God and thus one with God?

Yes.

It is a great mystery of God - that by His power and light He has created Matter (by definition). Which subsequently is the cause of the shadows created by matter, which are the shadows of darkness. Then dividing the light from the darkness, eternity is divided into the illusion of the incrementalism of times, evidenced by Time and Matter. Space then, is the evidence of His dividing. All made manifest in the waters below and above the dividing firmament of the first heaven atmosphere of the earth. All according to His purpose of evil and darkness being swallowed up with the removal of the dividing incrementalism of times and man, when all who are born of His spirit return. God then is all in all, and One again.

 

[Matthias]

Yes - God is One God, and yes we read that God is known by many Names. But here is a question for you:

If the church is indeed the body of Christ and Christ is the Word of God and God who took on flesh, then is not the body of One considered to be the One as part of that one?


1 Cor 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.

Jn 1,2 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning.

I know I certainly count my arms, legs, eyes, and all the members of my body as part of me and thus as me.

So is the body of Christ who we know is the Word that took on flesh, and was with God and was God, then is ScottA part of the body of God and thus one with God?

Are you saying that the body of Christ (composed of many persons) is (or may become?) God?

In other words, God is probably (or possibly?) more than three because of those who will be saved?

 

[Behold]

Such is the creation of this world: By Light and Energy God has seemingly divided His eternity into the incrementalism of Times.

"God is A Spirit", and God exists outside of time.
He has no beginning, no end, no TIME Frame.

 

[ScottA]

"God is A Spirit", and God exists outside of time.
He has no beginning, no end, no TIME Frame.

Yes, and that places all things within God; wherein the world was conceived, complete with the incrementalism of times and the illusion of its own timeline, like the pages of a book that is written...then finished.

 

[Behold]

Yes, and that places all things within God; wherein the world was conceived, complete with the incrementalism of times and the illusion of its own timeline, like the pages of a book that is written...then finished.

Your sentiment is very nice,.......... however, God does not exit "in Time".
He exist outside of Time..

Time is like a box, that has God's Creation in it... It started, and it has an end. It has boundaries called : Time

Immortality has no time frame it exists within.

God has no beginning, no ending.. and TIME has both.

The term "eternal" or "eternity", means "no boundary".. it has no TIME Frame...it exists outside of Time.

The only time that God has existed "in time", was the body of Jesus, and now that is no longer bound by time.
The born again exist in a body that is bound by time, yet we live IN IT, as we are not bound by time.

Our New Eternal Body, will match our Eternal Spirit.

 

[ScottA]

Your sentiment is very nice,.......... however, God does not exit "in Time".
He exist outside of Time..

Time is like a box, that has God's Creation in it... It started, and it has an end. It has boundaries called : Time

Immortality has no time frame it exists within.

God has no beginning, no ending.. and TIME has both.

The term "eternal" or "eternity", means "no boundary".. it has no TIME Frame...it exists outside of Time.

The only time that God has existed "in time", was the body of Jesus, and now that is no longer bound by time.
The born again exist in a body that is bound by time, yet we live IN IT, as we are not bound by time.

Our New Eternal Body, will match our Eternal Spirit.

We don't need to debate the semantics. However, time being a creation of God, within God, is not outside, nor is He outside, but all in all.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

While it is foreign to me, it may not be to God. The tenets appear to be there, but superficially that may also be true of other gods.

On a basic level, I am inclined to default as Paul did with the unknown God...that perhaps even being wrong, may still be an inroad to the One True God. Fortunately, wrong is not a problem for God. We all have been wrong. I like John Lennon's "Imagine" for that matter.

Perhaps this is what Pancho sees it as.

Thank you, ScottA and @Mathias for bringing Ahura Mazda to the discussion.

Zoroastrianism is as old as Judaism, if not older.
However, while Hebrews continued to worship several deities along with the cult to YHWH or to El /Elohim, as archeological evidence and the Bible itself show, Zoroastrians were in fact the first clearly monotheistic religion to prosper.
It influenced Judaism and, indirectly, all Abrahamic religions.

After the exile in Babylon, where Jews nurtured their religion from Zoroastrianism, Jews returned to Jerusalem with a firm monotheistic faith.
Have you wondered why the cult to other competing gods was not a problem anymore in the time of Jesus?
We find plenty of warnings and lamentations in the Old Testament due to the recurrent problem of idolatry, right?
Then, what had changed and why?

In zorastrianism (also known as mazdeism) Ahura Mazda is One, and is Good. Ahura Mazda was not conceived as a national god (in contrast with YHWH) and certainly not the Lord of Armies. He was the first Universal God to be considered the same God for all peoples on earth.

Ahura Mazda was worshiped by Cyrus, who was never condemned for that.
The Bible says that Cyrus didn't know about YHWH, but still YHWH calls him "My Messiah", and Cyrus proclaims to have received an order from YHWH, the only God, to let the Jews return.
So, how do we put all these pieces together?

• Cyrus didn't know YHWH
• Cyrus proclaims YHWH as the true God
• YHWH calles Cyrus "My Messiah"
• Cyrus worshiped Ahura Mazda
• Ahura Mazda is the One and Only God

 

[Wick Stick]

Nobody has made the obvious joke?

Clearly... God is <3

 

[ScottA]

Thank you, ScottA and @Mathias for bringing Ahura Mazda to the discussion.

Zoroastrianism is as old as Judaism, if not older.
However, while Hebrews continued to worship several deities along with the cult to YHWH or to El /Elohim, as archeological evidence and the Bible itself show, Zoroastrians were in fact the first clearly monotheistic religion to prosper.
It influenced Judaism and, indirectly, all Abrahamic religions.

After the exile in Babylon, where Jews nurtured their religion from Zoroastrianism, Jews returned to Jerusalem with a firm monotheistic faith.
Have you wondered why the cult to other competing gods was not a problem anymore in the time of Jesus?
We find plenty of warnings and lamentations in the Old Testament due to the recurrent problem of idolatry, right?
Then, what had changed and why?

In zorastrianism (also known as mazdeism) Ahura Mazda is One, and is Good. Ahura Mazda was not conceived as a national god (in contrast with YHWH) and certainly not the Lord of Armies. He was the first Universal God to be considered the same God for all peoples on earth.

Ahura Mazda was worshiped by Cyrus, who was never condemned for that.
The Bible says that Cyrus didn't know about YHWH, but still YHWH calls him "My Messiah", and Cyrus proclaims to have received an order from YHWH, the only God, to let the Jews return.
So, how do we put all these pieces together?

• Cyrus didn't know YHWH
• Cyrus proclaims YHWH as the true God
• YHWH calles Cyrus "My Messiah"
• Cyrus worshiped Ahura Mazda
• Ahura Mazda is the One and Only God

That is a bit sketchy.

I have my area and this is not it. Mine is the end, not so much the beginning. Which is not to say I have nothing to contribute. Foundationally speaking, it should be considered that all origins good, bad, or evil, all point to the End, which is Christ Jesus. Meaning, no league among contributing factors. On the contrary, none came first, before He who was before the foundation of the world. There is much written in God's word of those who are not of God's chosen people who have contributed to, as well as aided Israel, all culminating to God's overarching purpose. Regardless of the particulars of origins, God meant it for good.

Thus, the origins are actually not the gospel by any other thread of truth, except those fully approved of by God in the end. Which, according to that one gospel, does show Cyrus aligning with God's purpose, but not fully with God's people. Which, in part could even be said of Pharaoh or Nebuchadnezzar.

In addition Ahura Mazda is then suspect, as being the god of Cyrus who did not know the God who has made His own name and purpose known.