Unless I'm misunderstanding your point here, based on what you said here this sounds like something I might argue, where I then end up concluding the entire 70 weeks have not finished yet. What I would be interested in knowing, based on what you said here, what is this leading you to conclude about these 70 weeks? They are entirely finished? They are not entirely finished?
Time frames we have to work with
- Thread starter Douggg
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Unless I'm misunderstanding your point here, based on what you said here this sounds like something I might argue, where I then end up concluding the entire 70 weeks have not finished yet. What I would be interested in knowing, based on what you said here, what is this leading you to conclude about these 70 weeks? They are entirely finished? They are not entirely finished?
I guess it depends on what you think something being fulfilled looks like. Some people have to have the literal waters on earth turning to literal blood before they are going to admit the second bowl of wrath is fulfilled, as an example.
When looking at past fulfillments, Jesus himself didn’t fulfill prophecy in a manner that satisfies everyone. There are still obviously some people that are waiting for certain things to be fulfilled that are already fulfilled.
I guess if you can show a reliable method of how to determine if something is fulfilled or not, that would go a long way in sorting some of these things out.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
Time and timelines present only a "dim" or limited perspective from this world into the unknown.
That is entirely the wrong approach. It is all a smokescreen to obscure every generation until the last. This is that last generation--but if you simply do what you have always done, you will only get the same result (a popular definition of insanity).
Alternatively, as eluded to in the book of Revelation, what "finishes" the mystery God declared to His servants the prophets--is not timelines, but "time no longer." Which is to say two things: 1) The end of times is a biblical certainty and is foretold; and 2) the very thing that reveals all that has been "sealed" until the time of the end...before the sounding of the seventh angel, which are the contents of the bitter little book previewed by the apostle John, that made him sick to his stomach--is the interpretation of the scriptures--without time ("time no longer").
This is a great mystery of God and a revelation for our time. But only a few will receive it.
That is entirely the wrong approach. It is all a smokescreen to obscure every generation until the last. This is that last generation--but if you simply do what you have always done, you will only get the same result (a popular definition of insanity).
Alternatively, as eluded to in the book of Revelation, what "finishes" the mystery God declared to His servants the prophets--is not timelines, but "time no longer." Which is to say two things: 1) The end of times is a biblical certainty and is foretold; and 2) the very thing that reveals all that has been "sealed" until the time of the end...before the sounding of the seventh angel, which are the contents of the bitter little book previewed by the apostle John, that made him sick to his stomach--is the interpretation of the scriptures--without time ("time no longer").
This is a great mystery of God and a revelation for our time. But only a few will receive it.
Not even the 42 months of the beast's rule (Revelation 13:5) ends when Jesus returns ?
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
It depends on whether or not you obsess over something that the 70 weeks was NOT about.
Daniel's own identification of what the 70 weeks was all about (which appears in Daniel 9:24-25 and concludes with the first sentence of Daniel 9:26, and with the first two sentences of Daniel 9:27), is about the coming of the Messiah, His making a covenant with many, causing the sacrifices and offering to cease in the middle of the 70th week, and being cut off (but not for Himself).
The 70 weeks was not about anybody else or about anything else. Daniel 9:24-25 identifies who and what the 70 weeks was about.
So IMO being obsessed with the fact that the Messiah (who the 70 weeks was all about) was cut off in the middle of the 70th week rather than at the end of the 70th week (as though the remaining 42 months of the final week somehow changes what Daniel 9:24-25 told us the 70 weeks was about),
is as foolish as being obsessed with the fact that He wasn't even born in the 70th week (because when He was born His own fulfillment of the 70th week of Daniel - which was all about Him and what He was going to accomplish - still lay over 30 years in the future).
The 70 weeks were all about Him and how He would come and do what Daniel wrote He would do in the middle of the final week.
And that's what He did.
To be obsessed with the 42 months that remained of the 70th week as though that final 42 months had not already been fulfilled by the Messiah in the middle of the week,
is to be obsessed with something God is neither obsessed with, nor wants anyone to attach any significance to - because there is NO significance to the final 42 months,
because that final 42 months had already been fulfilled by the Messiah in the middle of the week. That's what He came to do in the final week, during the final week, and He did it in the final week, during the final week, in the middle of the final week, 42 months earlier than was required of Him. That's all the 70 weeks was about: The Messiah and what He would come and do.
This obsession with the final 42 months is foolishness, IMO
Daniel's own identification of what the 70 weeks was all about (which appears in Daniel 9:24-25 and concludes with the first sentence of Daniel 9:26, and with the first two sentences of Daniel 9:27), is about the coming of the Messiah, His making a covenant with many, causing the sacrifices and offering to cease in the middle of the 70th week, and being cut off (but not for Himself).
The 70 weeks was not about anybody else or about anything else. Daniel 9:24-25 identifies who and what the 70 weeks was about.
So IMO being obsessed with the fact that the Messiah (who the 70 weeks was all about) was cut off in the middle of the 70th week rather than at the end of the 70th week (as though the remaining 42 months of the final week somehow changes what Daniel 9:24-25 told us the 70 weeks was about),
is as foolish as being obsessed with the fact that He wasn't even born in the 70th week (because when He was born His own fulfillment of the 70th week of Daniel - which was all about Him and what He was going to accomplish - still lay over 30 years in the future).
The 70 weeks were all about Him and how He would come and do what Daniel wrote He would do in the middle of the final week.
And that's what He did.
To be obsessed with the 42 months that remained of the 70th week as though that final 42 months had not already been fulfilled by the Messiah in the middle of the week,
is to be obsessed with something God is neither obsessed with, nor wants anyone to attach any significance to - because there is NO significance to the final 42 months,
because that final 42 months had already been fulfilled by the Messiah in the middle of the week. That's what He came to do in the final week, during the final week, and He did it in the final week, during the final week, in the middle of the final week, 42 months earlier than was required of Him. That's all the 70 weeks was about: The Messiah and what He would come and do.
This obsession with the final 42 months is foolishness, IMO
Copy @Douggg
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"that there should be time no longer" in Revelation 10:6 just means that there will be no more delay. That the mystery of God shall be finished in the day of the voice of the seventh angel.
The delay is that mystery of God as he had declared to the servants the prophets were foretold back in their day, but would not be fulfilled until the days when the seventh angel sounds.
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ScottA
Well-Known Member
I know some people will say the 42 months is Satans little season, but I don’t think so. I think the 42 months the beast rules was the time prior to the cross, I think the Jews were ruled by the beast else they wouldn’t have killed their Messiah.
Do you think that Jesus will return to this earth in Revelation 19 ?
If so, then is not the beast cast into the lake of fire at that time, Revelation 19:20 ?
Are you referring to the mystery of God as being the kingdom of God becoming the ruling kingdom over all the nations here on earth ?
Like in the prayer Jesus taught, commonly known as the Lord's prayer, "thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven."?
Yea, I think the coming in Revelation 19 is the same event that takes place at the end of Satans little season in Revelation 20.
Notice that Revelation 20:10 has the word “are” added in the KJV. ESV has “were”, which can dramatically change how to understand the verse. Ultimately if we just leave it as written in the Greek “where the beast and false prophet” then it points us back to Revelation 19 which is where the beast and false prophet were last written about, which I personally think is what was meant, it is linking the two events together as one in the same.
Revelation 20:10 KJV And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:10 ESV and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Do you think the beast is cast into the lake of fire, the day that Jesus returns ?
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
If so, then would not the 42 month reign of the beast end the day that Jesus returns ?
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
Sort of. Did you consider why I separate the 1260 days from the Day of Christ's Return? The 2 Witnesses die on the 1260th day of the Beast's reign, and then lay for 3.5 more days in the streets of Jerusalem. That is 1264 days. And it is only after that that the road to Armageddon is described as an international mobilization starting from the major Eastern nations. That will likely take months.
So I asked myself, "Why are we given 1260 days for the reign of the Beast when Armageddon and the defeat of the Beast takes place somewhat later than the 1260 days?" The only thing I can figure is that "1260 days" refer to the time when the Beast rules over the world in uncontested fashion, and the 1260th day is the day when the Eastern kings throw off his yoke and revolt against him, mobilizing to Armageddon.
So we really don't know the day of Christ's Return at Armageddon. It could be months after a great revolt against the Antichrist on the 1260th of his rule.
And so, it *cannot* be the 1260th days of Antichrist's reign that Christ returns. This is just my thinking--I don't really know. Thanks for indulging me!
If it wasn't for this part in Daniel 9:27 below, you and I wouldn't even be having this discussion to begin with. We would be in full agreement about everything you just said.
and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
I'm sorry that you refuse to accept, but that's on you not me, that that too is something that occurs during the 70th week. Because if you did accept that, there is no way that you would still be insisting there is no gap anywhere in the 70 weeks. Therefore, since I am convinced that that part too occurs during the 70th week, that contradicts what I quoted you saying above since this is clearly recorded in verse 27---and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate---and that it can't fit the 2nd half of the 70th week if Christ is the one that is meant in the midst of the week. And once again, the way you all are trying to get around this---and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate---this is not meaning during the 70th week, it is meaning outside of it.
What matters is what Gabriel intended for it to mean. In verse 25 he obviously intended it to mean that only the first 69 weeks are in focus, thus nothing outside of that. The same should be true for verse 27 since I see it unlikely that Gabriel can be all over the place instead of remaining consistent.
The way some of you are treating verse 27 is akin to how Preterists treat Matthew 24:34, for example. The context surrounding that verse is involving the end of this age and the 2nd coming. Yet they are applying verse 34 to the first century and 70 AD, thus disregarding context altogether. Or if not that, they are sorely misunderstanding the context of the verses surrounding verse 34 altogether. As to Daniel 9:27, there is no way to misunderstand the context. It is involving the 70th week. Not just some of it, all of it. The same way Matthew 24:32-51 is involving the end of this age and the 2nd coming. Not just just some of it, all of it is, including verse 34.
And look at the way you all have the 70 weeks ending. That being with the martyring of saints taking place rather than the destroying of the beast taking place. The latter leads to a better outcome. The former leads to more of the same rather than something better, such as the beast getting cast into the LOF, which is far better than saints continuing to be martyred for 2000 more years.
Some of you act as if, if there is a gap in the 70 weeks this means the last half doesn't involve Christ in that case. How could it not, if the last half is the 42 month reign and that it is then Christ that destroys this reign? Let's not forget, Christ comes twice, not just one time. We have to be willing to think outside of the box here. No one that denies there is a gap wants to do that, apparently. But not because they are unable to, they just don't want to.
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Yes, I believe the beast is cast into the lake of fire the day Jesus returns. The 42 month reign of the beast ends at the cross, after that Satan is transformed into an angel of light which is depicted as the second beast with two horns like a lamb but speaks as a dragon.
It is possible that the reign of the beast ends yet he remains until a later time when he is cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 17:8 the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Randy, if it is any help to you in your thinking, Armageddon is not a battle of nations against nations.
Armageddon is the gathering by the kings of the earth their armies to make war on Jesus.
Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
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Where you are getting the kings of the east throwing their yoke from being under the beast is in Revelation 16:12 the sixth vial, yes ?
Revelation 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
The sixth vial reveals a prelude to Armageddon. And then Armageddon itself.
The prelude is the Revelation 16:12 actions. And is also the battles in Daniel 11:40-44.
Those battles will be going hot and heavy, when without warning the sixth seal event takes place and the world sees Jesus in heaven, sickle in hand.
The fighting will stop, and then Revelation 16:13 takes place. The beast, the false prophet, and the dragon (Satan) convince the kings of the earth to unify against the bigger threat. And to gather their armies at Armageddon to make war on Jesus.
In Daniel 11:45, the beast then takes his stand between the seas, on the holy mountain, the temple mount. That is where he will meet his end.
Are you saying that Satan (as the beast) had a 42 month reign that ended at Jesus's crucifixion ?
During the 42 months of the beast's reign, the false prophet will have had an image made of the beast that people will be required to worship. Did any of that happen during Jesus's 33 years here on earth ?
Yes, I believe Satan was controlling or ruling during Jesus’s ministry.
John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
I think the false prophet is Satan transformed into an angel of light. I think this happened after the cross, obeying the law was the correct thing to do prior to the cross. After the cross we were no longer under the law and Satan keeping people under the law was him being a false prophet, or lamb with two horns that spoke as a dragon.
I think the image they worshipped had to do with worshiping the law itself and not what the law was pointing to. Similar to the bronze serpent on the pole that wound up getting worshiped and was destroyed in 2 Kings 18:4. However John 3:14 equates Moses lifting up the bronze serpent with the Son of man being lifted up.
So the bronze serpent represents both, the Son of man and idol worship, it depends on the individual. I believe the image of the beast was the same concept, they worship the law by rebuilding the torn veil and altar (and the rocks were rent was the altar being broken) this became the serpent they worshipped.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
Yes, but perhaps not in the way that is often understood.
There is but One kingdom, and the transition (except for "those who are alive and remain" in the world until the end) is the end of this old world. That is the time spoken of as the sounding of the seventh angel. Just prior to that "time no longer" is the means that will "finish the mystery of God as He declared to His servants the prophets." Which are the last words of God, fulfilling "before they spring forth, I tell you of them" by Isaiah.
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