TULIP an open discussion

[CadyandZoe]

A debt we owe is stamped "Cancelled" if the charges are paid for by someone else.

No, that's not true. Either a debt has been paid, in which case the document is stamped "PAID," or the debt is forgiven, in which case the document is stamped "CANCELLED."

The debt was cancelled because the charge of our indebtedness (our sins) was nailed it to the cross.

No, because if that were true, our sins were not forgiven.

Colossians 2:13-14 (WEB) 13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.

Exactly, he forgave our sins so the the debt was canceled.

The debt was cancelled because the payment for sin was on the cross.

According to Colossians 2:13-14, the sins were forgiven, which is why the debt was cancelled.

So, you disagree with The Scriptures that the atonement of Christ's redemptive act justifies us from the wrath of God?

No. I disagree with your understanding of justification. Paul says that we are justified by grace through faith. He does not say that we are justified by having our debt to justice paid by Jesus.

Before the sacrifice of Lord Jesus, the justice or righteousness of God was not yet made for sin.

Romans 3:25 ... in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished

Christ's atoning sacrifice of himself, the shedding of his blood, is the demonstration of God's righteousness

That's right. The cross was a public demonstration of God's righteousness.

Because God's justice or righteousness was fulfilled by Christ on the cross, God can justly forgive sins.

Jesus has been given authority to forgive sins.

So, you deny the following Scripture?

I agreed with it above. I disagree with your interpretation of Romans 3:25 because you mentally insert concepts that Paul didn't intend.

Exactly! The public demonstration of God's righteousness is his justice being implemented by the public sacrifice of His Son.

That is not what it means. Remember to interpret scripture from inside the immediate context.

Romans 3:23-25

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;​

We are being justified as a gift of his grace through the redemption, which is in Christ Jesus.

Take note of three words in the statement above that define the concept of mercy: gift, grace, and redemption. A gift is something given free of charge. Grace is help and kindness granted free of charge. Redemption is the act of freeing a slave without cost to the slave.

If the purpose of the cross was to pay our moral debt to justice, the act would not be a gift, a kindness granted free of charge or payment to release a slave from sin.

If I owe the bank a thousand dollars and my father pays the bank a thousand dollars as a gift to me, then we can rightfully say that the debt was paid. But we can't say, at the same time, that the debt was canceled or forgiven. Since the Bible teaches us that our sins are forgiven and our debt was canceled, we can't say that the debt was paid.

So, you do not believe that redemption was a purchase made by God from Sin to be His Possession?

No. Revelation 5:9 discusses obtaining something from the "agora," i.e., the marketplace. This idea is consistent with the concept of redemption, which is an act of mercy, not justice.

The Biblical account goes like this: Jesus willingly allowed himself to be arrested and crucified by the Jews and the Romans. Jesus indicated that we should view the cross in the same way that the Israelites viewed the snake on the pole. Just as the people were to look at the snake on the pole to be healed, people are to look at Jesus on the cross to be saved. We are to understand the message being conveyed to us. Jesus was an innocent man and did not deserve to be punished. We deserve to be punished instead. Jesus is willing to forgive us if we are willing to agree.

This public demonstration allowed God to prove that he is both just and the justifier of those who believe in him. Thus, the cross is seen as a propitiatory offering, which pleased God and mollified his anger. God’s wrath toward us is replaced with God’s delight toward Jesus, his Son. God ratified his acceptance of Jesus' propitiatory offering by resurrecting Jesus from the dead.

Do you believe Christ redeemed believers from sin to be God's possession or not?

Of course. But redemption isn't the same as satisfying justice.

The debt was canceled because redemption is the payment made for sins (the charge). His Sacrifice paid for "the charge" (our sins) thus satisfying God's Justice for the legal debt; and so, cancelling the debt.

Either the debt was paid or it was canceled. You want to have it both ways.

What is "the charge" of legal indebtedness? Is it not our sins? Who paid the price to free us from our sins?

This reminds me of the boy who spent his lunch money on baseball cards. When he got home he complained to his mother that he was hungry. His mother asked, "Didn't you buy lunch?"

You have Jesus spending the money on the wrong thing.

Did Jesus "pay" for our sins? Yes.
What did Jesus get for his payment?
Redemption -- freedom. Literally, he frees us from our sins.

Did Jesus pay our debt to justice? No.
The debt was canceled.

 

[setst777]

No, that's not true. Either a debt has been paid, in which case the document is stamped "PAID," or the debt is forgiven, in which case the document is stamped "CANCELLED."

God cancelled the debt the believer owed, because Lord Jesus paid the legal charge of indebtedness by His Blood.

Colossians 2:13-14 (WEB) 13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.

Titus 2:14 (WEB) who gave himself for us, that he might redeem [lutroó: paying a ransom] us (believers) from all iniquity

Lord Jesus paid the ransom for the believers charge of legal indebtedness of our sin, so that God can now righteously display mercy and grace upon sinners who believe, forgiving their sins.

Matthew 26:28 for this is my blood of the new covenant, which is poured out for many for the remission / forgiveness of sins.

That is not what it means. Remember to interpret scripture from inside the immediate context.

Romans 3:23-25

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;​

We are being justified as a gift of his grace through the redemption, which is in Christ Jesus.

The believer is justified as a gift of God's grace because Lord Jesus paid for release (redeemed) the just debt against us by His blood.

Romans 5:9 (WEB) 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we will be saved from God’s wrath through him.

Romans 5:18 (WEB) 18 So then as through one trespass, all men were condemned; even so through one act of righteousness, all men were justified to life.

If the purpose of the cross was to pay our moral debt to justice, the act would not be a gift, a kindness granted free of charge or payment to release a slave from sin.

That is your irrational mind talking, not the Scriptures.

God paid for the gift with His Son’s own blood (redemption).
God gives that "paid for gift" freely to believers (mercy).
The believers did not pay for the gift freely given to them (debt cancelled).

The charge of our legal indebtedness (all our sin) was justly paid by Christ Jesus sacrifice on the cross.

Colossians 2:13-14 (WEB) 13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.

Titus 2:14 (WEB) who gave himself for us, that he might redeem [lutroó: paying a ransom] us (believers) from all iniquity

Lord Jesus paid the righteous requirement of debt owed, so the believer does not suffer the just wrath of God.

Romans 5:9 (WEB) Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we will be saved from God’s wrath through him.

Romans 5:18 (WEB) 18 So then as through one trespass, all men were condemned;
even so through one act of righteousness, all men were justified to life.

No. Revelation 5:9 discusses obtaining something from the "agora," i.e., the marketplace. This idea is consistent with the concept of redemption, which is an act of mercy, not justice.

God's mercy came at a price - the shedding of His Son's blood as the just payment for all sins.

Romans 5:9 (WEB) 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we will be saved from God’s wrath through him.

Why was it necessary for Lord Jesus to purchase believers for God with his own Blood?

Revelation 5:9 and purchased [Greek: agorazó] us for God with your blood out of every tribe, language, people, and nation

God’s wrath toward us is replaced with God’s delight toward Jesus, his Son. God ratified his acceptance of Jesus' propitiatory offering by resurrecting Jesus from the dead.

That is your own thoughts. So, you deny the Gospel of Christ?

Romans 5:9 (WEB) 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we will be saved from God’s wrath through him.

Romans 5:18 (WEB) 18 So then as through one trespass, all men were condemned; even so through one act of righteousness, all men were justified to life.

Of course. But redemption isn't the same as satisfying justice.

Romans 5:9 (WEB) 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we will be saved from God’s wrath through him.

Romans 5:18 (WEB) 18 So then as through one trespass, all men were condemned; even so through one act of righteousness, all men were justified to life.

Christ's atoning sacrifice of himself, the shedding of his blood, is the demonstration of God's righteousness for all sins.

Romans 3:25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood — to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished

Either the debt was paid or it was canceled. You want to have it both ways.

God cancelled the debt the believer owes, because Lord Jesus paid the debt for us - nailing the charges against us on the cross. That is how the Gospel teaches it.

Colossians 2:13-14 (WEB) He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.

Titus 2:14 (WEB) who gave himself for us, that he might redeem [lutroó: paying a ransom] us (believers) from all iniquity

 

[CadyandZoe]

God cancelled the debt the believer owed, because Lord Jesus paid the legal charge of indebtedness by His Blood.

Either it was canceled or it was paid. It can't be both.

Lord Jesus paid the ransom for the believers charge of legal indebtedness of our sin, so that God can now righteously display mercy and grace upon sinners who believe, forgiving their sins.

Jesus gave his life for our redemption, but the cost of our redemption wasn't to solve a legal indebtedness. Our sins were forgiven and the debt was cancelled.

The charge of our legal indebtedness (all our sin) was justly paid by Christ Jesus sacrifice on the cross.

Our sins were forgiven and the debt was canceled. Here, let me highlight the words so you might see them better.

Colossians 2:13-14 (WEB) 13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.

According to Colossians 2:13-14, our sins were forgiven and the debt was canceled.

Titus 2:14 (WEB) who gave himself for us, that he might redeem [lutroó: paying a ransom] us (believers) from all iniquity

Lord Jesus paid the righteous requirement of debt owed, so the believer does not suffer the just wrath of God.

That isn't what Paul said. He did not say that Jesus paid the debt. Jesus gave himself for us that he might redeem us.

God's mercy came at a price - the shedding of His Son's blood as the just payment for all sins.

Yes, God's mercy came at a price, but not not in the way you think.

According to satisfaction theory, our dept to justice was satisfied at the cross. Once a debt is satisfied it is no longer remembered, and so we can rightfully conclude that we no longer remember our sins. If our debt to justice is satisfied, our sins are no longer an issue.

But our sins continue to be an issue, so the satisfaction theory is invalid.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Our sins are still remembered. Therefore, our forgiveness and cleansing depend on our confession. If we confess our sins, John says, then Jesus will faithfully forgive them and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we don't confess our sins, he won't. And since our sins need to be forgiven, they are not satisfied.

The cross of Christ was an element in the propitiatory offering Jesus made to God on behalf of his followers. We have peace with God because we believe God accepted the propitiatory offering Jesus provided.

1 John 2:1-2
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

John writes that Jesus is the propitiation for our sins and he indicates that Jesus is our Advocate. When involved in a legal dispute, one hires an Advocate who is professionally trained to make arguments in court. If our debt to justice is paid, we wouldn't need an advocate because the issue would already be settled. However, since we still need an advocate, it suggests that the issue is not settled yet. For this reason, the satisfaction theory is invalid. We need to confess our sins and we need an advocate, indicating that the sin issue isn't settled.

Propitiation wasn't offered to settle our debt; it was offered to appease God's wrath. Jesus' obedience until death qualified him to enter into the heavenly temple to advocate for those who wish to be forgiven. If we confess our sins, John says, Jesus will forgive us.

Why was it necessary for Lord Jesus to purchase believers for God with his own Blood?

The blood of Jesus became the basis of his propitiatory offering, which qualified him to act as our high priest.

Romans 5:9 (WEB) 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we will be saved from God’s wrath through him.

I am aware that you believe Paul when he says we are justified by faith. So you should understand that when he says we are justified by his blood, this is his shortcut way of saying, "We are justified by believing what his son said about his blood."

Jesus said many things about his blood. In the following passage, he refers to it as the blood of the New Covenant.

Matthew 26:28 for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.

The blood was not given to pay our debt to justice. The blood is associated with the Cross, which Jesus likened to the bronze serpent which Moses lifted up in the wilderness. Just as the people were to look up at the bronze serpent to be healed, the people are to look up at the cross to be saved and gain eternal life.

The bronze serpent symbolized Israel's confession that "we have sinned against the Lord and his servant Moses." Likewise, the cross symbolizes our confession that "we have sinned against the Lord and his servant Jesus." In other words, our belief in Jesus and what he taught about the significance of the cross is the means of our justification.

However, this is also important. Though we are justified by believing in what Jesus said about the meaning of the cross, we will be saved by his advocacy. The basis of his advocacy will be our confession mixed with his appeal to God—the propitiation of his blood.

Romans 5:9 says two things: 1) we are justified by his blood, and 2) we are saved from his wrath through him, meaning that God will grant life to Jesus' followers because Jesus performed an act of propitiation. God will listen to Jesus because he is delighted by what Jesus did.

Christ's atoning sacrifice of himself, the shedding of his blood, is the demonstration of God's righteousness for all sins.

Romans 3:25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood — to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished

Consider Paul's entire thought here. First, in verse 21, Paul says that God's righteousness has been manifested apart from the Law. This is our first clue that Jesus's death was not intended to satisfy justice. God's righteousness has been manifested outside the legal system altogether. He decided to provide another way to manifest his righteousness.

Instead of achieving justice, we are being made right as a gift of God's grace through redemption. This means being set free from condemnation and released from the penalty of sin. Jesus reconciled God to the world through the cross, which God accepted as a pacification of his wrath. According to Paul, the cross demonstrated God's righteousness, just as Jesus believed it would serve the same purpose as the bronze serpent that Moses raised up.

God cancelled the debt the believer owes, because Lord Jesus paid the debt for us - nailing the charges against us on the cross. That is how the Gospel teaches it.

A debt paid is not a debt canceled.

 

[ChristisGod]

My understanding is that the doctrine of Total Depravity is that man is a completely falled being, incapable of doing or desiring good, unable to believe in God, and dead to all things spiritual. Unless God will unilaterally act on a man to cause him to be regenerated, and henceforth to believe, that man will never believe, cannot ever believe, and so be saved.

Paul quoted from the Psalms,

Romans 3:10-18 KJV
10) As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11) There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12) They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13) Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14) Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15) Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16) Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17) And the way of peace have they not known:
18) There is no fear of God before their eyes.

The doctrine of "prevenient grace" is that God has given to each man a grace that allows them to choose to believe if that is what they want.

Titus 2, the grace of God unto salvation has appeared to all men, John 1, Jesus is the true light coming into the world that enlightens every man.

I would answer, yes, total depravity is Biblical, but not in the way the Calvinist would say, that none can choose Christ until after regeneration, which is itself unbiblical. Repentance comes before salvation in every place it's spoken of.

Much love!

And faith comes before regeneration too. Calvinists place the cart before the horse. Also God before creation determined only the elect to be saved and the rest are damned. Man has no choice in salvation since the god of Calvinism determined their salvation in eternity past by decree.

 

[ChristisGod]

Tulip comes crashing down when tested with scripture

One must change the simple meaning of all, everyone, all the world, all men, all mankind, whoever, all people etc...... to mean some, a few, gentiles, jews. And we know if Scripture meant to say Jews and Gentiles it would say exactly that instead of all, everyone, all men, all the world etc.....

I do not have to change the meaning and can take Gods word literally and that He means what He says and says what He means.

Resistible Grace

Acts 7:51
“You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.

Matthew 22:3
And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

Matthew 23:37
Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those having been sent to her! How often would I have gathered together your children, the way in which a hen gathers together her chicks under the wings, and you were not willing!

Proverbs 1:24
Because I have called and you refused to listen, have stretched out my hand and no one has heeded,

Isaiah 65:12
I will destine you for the sword, and you will all kneel down to be slaughtered, because I called and you did not answer, I spoke and you did not listen; you did evil in My sight and chose that in which I did not delight."

Isaiah 66:4
So I will choose their punishment and I will bring terror upon them, because I called and no one answered, I spoke and no one listened. But they did evil in My sight and chose that in which I did not delight."

Limited Atonement

John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Hebrews 2:9
But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

Titus 3:4
But when the kindness and the love of mankind of God our Savior appeared

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

1 Timothy 2:4
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard “delay,” but he is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

2 Corinthians 5:14
For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.

Loraine Boettner has stated on p. 59 of his book, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination,

"prove any one of them true and all of the others will follow as logical and necessary parts of the system. Prove any one of them false and the whole system must be abandoned."

1)I have already proven irresistible grace is not true with Acts 7:51

2)I have proven the atonement is not limited- John 1:20, 3:16, 1 Tim 2:4-6, 2 Pet 3:9 and 1 John 2:2

3)I have proven that election is not unconditional- whosoever will may come, that means all, everyone from numerous passages . John 1:12 John 3:16

hope this helps !!!

 

[CadyandZoe]

Personally, I find that concept completely unScriptural. My testimony is that God presented to me the evidence of the truth of the Gospel, but then required me to either commit myself to it or not.

Much love!

Really? I don't doubt what you say, but isn't there more to it? I know that some people believe in a simplistic view of faith, which considers "faith" the correct answer on a true/false test. Is Jesus Lord? Yes. Okay then, you are in.

But surely there are times when following Jesus is hard and challenging, especially when we find ourselves at odds with our culture, or we become distracted by entertainment or remain in danger of apathy.

 

[CadyandZoe]

And faith comes before regeneration too. Calvinists place the cart before the horse. Also God before creation determined only the elect to be saved and the rest are damned. Man has no choice in salvation since the god of Calvinism determined their salvation in eternity past by decree.

Who would believe in Jesus apart from regeneration? Why does the Bible talk about opened eyes, opened ears, hardened hearts?

 

[marks]

But surely there are times when following Jesus is hard and challenging, especially when we find ourselves at odds with our culture, or we become distracted by entertainment or remain in danger of apathy.

According to your view, as I understand it, we are never at odds with God, no one ever is. And any disagreement between anyone and their culture is just the way they've been written by God, so there is no danger of any kind. All men live, all men die, exactly as God predetermined. There cannot be danger, or challenge, or distraction, these are all things which do not fit in the world you describe.

All the passages which urge us to be reconciled to God, to put off the old man and put on the new, all a mockery of man's contribution which according to you does not exist. So there is no distraction from anything, only the focus God gives each of us, to one this, to another that. One man's eyes fixed on heaven, another man's eyes fixed on hell, and nothing to do with them. Only what God predetermined. The story He wrote.

So what would you warn?? Don't let God's story end up with you in hell?

How can there be "danger of apathy" when it's been predetermined by God whether this would be you or not. If you are not in control, why warn? There is no danger to be avoided, only what is already chosen to happen.

Who cares what the man's ideas are? The model maker paints one train car red and another train car blue, and warns the blue car, Don't be blue!! Be red!

This is why I say such a view makes God out to be dishonest, not true, and that is utterly against Who He says He is. God is not only true, He is in fact truth itself. No dishonesty.

Much love!

 

[setst777]

Either it was canceled or it was paid. It can't be both.

The Scriptures say our debt was cancelled because the charge of legal indebtedness that we owed was nailed to the cross, and this was a just payment by ransom for our sins. That makes it a payment to satisfy God's justice.

So, I will go with what the Scriptures state.

Colossians 2:13-14 (WEB) 13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.

Titus 2:14 (WEB) who gave himself for us, that he might redeem [lutroó: paying a ransom] us (believers) from all iniquity

Romans 5:9 (WEB) 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we will be saved from God’s wrath through him.

Forgiveness is only possible because of the cross.

Matthew 26:28 for this is my blood of the new covenant, which is poured out for many for the remission / forgiveness of sins.

The cross of Christ was an element in the propitiatory offering Jesus made to God on behalf of his followers. We have peace with God because we believe God accepted the propitiatory offering Jesus provided.

1 John 2:1-2
My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

The cross is the propitiation (atonement) for believers because Christ shed blood satisfied God's justice.

Romans 5:9 (WEB) 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we will be saved from God’s wrath through him.

Romans 3:25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood — to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness,

Romans 5:18 (WEB) 18 ... through one act of righteousness, all men were justified to life.

Thankfully, most Christians will not fall for your blatant deception of the simple Gospel message by which God forgives and saves us through faith in His Son.

 

[CadyandZoe]

According to your view, as I understand it, we are never at odds with God, no one ever is. And any disagreement between anyone and their culture is just the way they've been written by God, so there is no danger of any kind. All men live, all men die, exactly as God predetermined. There cannot be danger, or challenge, or distraction, these are all things which do not fit in the world you describe.

The essence of your objection, as I understand it, is that when God is acting in his transcendence, what we do isn't real. If we exist in a story of his creation, there is no real danger, challenge, or distraction.

Unfortunately, your objection is based on a conflation of God's transcendence and immanence. In essence, you reject the concept of God acting in his transcendence because you can't make sense of things when God acts in his immanence.

To avoid this confusion, we should search for meaning within our story as it plays out and provisionally suspend our knowledge that we owe our existence to a transcendent creator, working independently of our awareness.

God, in his transcendence, exists outside of our story. He exists outside of this world. He is not created. He is self-sustaining. And he is the origin of all that exists.

God, in his immanence, appears as a theophany -- a burning bush, for example. The OT scriptures portray God as "The Angel of the Lord."

Danger, challenge, and distraction are real to us because they define the state of things as they exist. But they are not real to God because such things lack substance to a self-existent, eternal, unchanging God.

The theological concept of God’s indestructibility is often associated with the term aseity. This term refers to God's attribute that signifies His self-existence and self-sufficiency; it implies that God is not contingent upon anything else for existence or durability. Aseity encompasses the idea that God is eternal, unchanging, and cannot be destroyed.

What we do is real, but God is more real. And to understand God's interaction between his reality and ours, we admit that our existence depends on his will. Divine Determinism doesn't reject man's free will; it doesn't reject or deny the existence of real danger. Divine determinism rejects man's independent existence and independent freedom.

This concept is depicted in the New Testament when Jesus performs miracles. The miracles indicate when God the Father chooses to make himself known in a direct way. He speaks from heaven when he chooses to communicate directly. This is God acting in his immanence where we exist. Miracles and voices from heaven don't fit into our existence either, but they happen nonetheless.

All the passages which urge us to be reconciled to God, to put off the old man and put on the new, all a mockery of man's contribution which according to you does not exist. So there is no distraction from anything, only the focus God gives each of us, to one this, to another that. One man's eyes fixed on heaven, another man's eyes fixed on hell, and nothing to do with them. Only what God predetermined. The story He wrote.

I assume that you have no objection to the existence of miracles.

A miracle, in the context of God's transcendence, can be defined as an extraordinary event that surpasses all known human or natural powers and is ascribed to a divine or supernatural cause, especially to God. It is an act that manifests or signals the presence of God transcending the ordinary laws of nature. In theological terms, miracles are often seen as signs of God's sovereign power over creation, demonstrating His ability to operate outside and above the natural order.

So then, should we say that a miracle makes a mockery of the natural laws? Not at all. Divine determinism does not deny the reality of our existence. It acknowledges that natural laws describe the way God usually operates, and a miracle occurs when God decides to do something unexpected to reveal himself to us.

Discussions of Man's contribution to our salvation must never forget God's transcendent nature and the multifaceted way in which he makes himself known to us. According to the Biblical view, salvation is a miracle of God, an event that surpasses all human and natural powers. Whatever man might contribute to his salvation, it is negligible by comparison to the power of God.

Who cares what the man's ideas are? The model maker paints one train car red and another train car blue, and warns the blue car, Don't be blue!! Be red!

I'm not sure why the model maker would do that, but we evaluate his action based on his reasons. In fact, we can evaluate your statement on the same basis. You gave us an example to highlight the apparent absurdity of commanding a train to be something other than what it was created to be. The example you gave is a good use of analogy and serves a good purpose.

Thus, to properly evaluate any creation, we must understand its purpose. Is it a good purpose or not? Can we imagine a good reason why a model maker might want to challenge a blue car to become red? Maybe, maybe not.

Why did Elisha ask the gods of Israel to call down fire from heaven? Why does anyone ask someone else to do things they know are impossible for them to do?

 

[CadyandZoe]

The Scriptures say our debt was cancelled because the charge of legal indebtedness that we owed was nailed to the cross, and this was a just payment by ransom for our sins. That makes it a payment to satisfy God's justice.

Do you really not know the difference between a paid debt and a canceled debt?

So, I will go with what the Scriptures state.

Colossians 2:13-14 (WEB) 13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.

I highlighted the phrases that contradict your position. We are forgiven and the debt is canceled.

Forgiveness is only possible because of the cross.

Forgiveness was always possible before the cross. The purpose of the cross is so that Jesus' followers might have eternal life.

The cross is the propitiation (atonement) for believers because Christ shed blood satisfied God's justice.

Propitiation is not paying a debt.

Thankfully, most Christians will not fall for your blatant deception of the simple Gospel message by which God forgives and saves us through faith in His Son.

If you truly believe that you have forgiveness, then why do you insist that your debt was paid? I wonder if you know the difference?

 

[marks]

Thus, to properly evaluate any creation, we must understand its purpose. Is it a good purpose or not? Can we imagine a good reason why a model maker might want to challenge a blue car to become red? Maybe, maybe not.

Maybe? Given that the modelmaker is the one who is calling the shots, it's an empty challenge. This is my point.

I'm saying God is love, and created us to love and be loved, and the only meaningful love is that which is given from one's own desire to love. The pantomine of love is a mockery of love.

Not to mention all the myriads of active voice verbs in the Bible that apply to us.

In your view, God predetermined that I would write this. So why don't you hear me? Because in your view God predetermined for you to not.

Much love! Or can that mean anything?

 

[Ritajanice]

Who would believe in Jesus apart from regeneration? Why does the Bible talk about opened eyes, opened ears, hardened hearts?

My two cents.

Many imo don’t understand the Living Spiritual Birth.

They think that our sins have been nailed to the cross just by believing....my question is how can you believe or even know that Jesus died on the cross or even know that he existed?

By just believing.

Well they can’t, much more to being Born Again of imperishable seed that that.

We believe in our spirit, why do we believe in our spirit, because we have been Born Again by Gods Living witness, His Holy Spirit...our spirit was Born Again and that is the only way we can know God via His Spirit.

All this scripture that is the written word, I see no life in the spirit do you?

Just reams and reams of scripture...as you well know, our spirit must be regenerated/ Born Again...before we can believe the truth of Gods written word, without His Living witness residing in our spirit...then one I’m afraid is still dead in spirit...

We need that vital ingredient, posting reams and reams of scripture without the Living witness the Holy Spirit is void of Gods truth.

Born Again then we are in the Living Spirit...the written word does not make one’s spirit Born Again , yet some believe the written word is God and I’m being serious.

My opinion/ testimony and belief.

 

[CadyandZoe]

My two cents.

Many imo don’t understand the Living Spiritual Birth.

They think that our sins have been nailed to the cross just by believing....my question is how can you believe or even know that Jesus died on the cross or even know that he existed?

By just believing.

Well they can’t, much more to being Born Again of imperishable seed that that.

We believe in our spirit, why do we believe in our spirit, because we have been Born Again by Gods Living witness, His Holy Spirit...our spirit was Born Again and that is the only way we can know God via His Spirit.

All this scripture that is the written word, I see no life in the spirit do you?

Just reams and reams of scripture...as you well know, our spirit must be regenerated/ Born Again...before we can believe the truth of Gods written word, without His Living witness residing in our spirit...then one I’m afraid is still dead in spirit...

We need that vital ingredient, posting reams and reams of scripture without the Living witness the Holy Spirit is void of Gods truth.

Born Again then we are in the Living Spirit...the written word does not make one’s spirit Born Again , yet some believe the written word is God and I’m being serious.

My opinion/ testimony and belief.

Thank you for both your testimony and your scripture references. I also believe that the Spirit sanctifies us by helping us believe the promise of God and to remain a believer even during times of difficulty and hardship.

 

[setst777]

Do you really not know the difference between a paid debt and a canceled debt?

If a judge orders you to pay a fine, but then, the judge pays it for you, the fine you were ordered to pay is canceled. This is so simple to understand, but you cannot see it, and refuse to believe what God actually stated.

Colossians 2:13-14 (WEB)
He forgave us all our sins,
14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness,
which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.

Titus 2:14 (WEB) who gave himself for us, that he might redeem [lutroó: paying a ransom] us (believers) from all iniquity

Notice the words "forgave," "canceled," "redeem: pay by ransom" are all used together, the very thing you object to and say does not make sense in your own "wisdom."

setst777 said: So, I will go with what the Scriptures state.

I highlighted the phrases that contradict your position. We are forgiven and the debt is canceled.
So, I will go with what the Scriptures state.

Colossians 2:13-14 (WEB) 13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.

You also highlighted "he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross."

That is the just payment (payment by ransom) we owed for all iniquities - the debt that God atoned for.

Titus 2:14 (WEB) who gave himself for us, that he might redeem [lutroó: paying a ransom] us (believers) from all iniquity

This is very basic to understand. How is it you are unable to see it?

1 Corinthians 3:20 (WEB) “The Lord knows the reasoning of the wise, that it is worthless.” [Psalm 94:11]

This payment (redemption by blood) of the legal debt was done on the cross, not by the sinner - a righteous ransom that God provided to pay for our sins and thus saves the believer from God's wrath.

Romans 5:9 (WEB) 9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we will be saved from God’s wrath through him.

Romans 5:18 (WEB) 18 even so through one act of righteousness, all men were justified to life.

Romans 3:25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood — to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness,

God purchased us from sin to be His possession (His slaves) with that very same redemptive blood of Christ that satisfied God's justice - the payment for our sin debt.

Revelation 5:9 and purchased [Greek: agorazó] us for God with your blood out of every tribe, language, people, and nation,

Romans 6:22 (WEB) But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

That is how the Scriptures teach it. You don't like it, you can't understand it, putting your own imaginations, philosophies, and what you perceive as "wisdom" above what God actually stated. You think you are wise, but you are not wise by God's standards. You cannot understand even the simplest or rudimentary of Scriptural concepts of the Gospel.

See if you can learn a lesson from God's Word:

1 Corinthians 1:19 (WEB) 18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are dying, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise. I will bring the discernment of the discerning to nothing.” [Isaiah 29:14]

1 Corinthians 1:20 (WEB) Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the lawyer of this world? Hasn’t God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

1 Corinthians 3:18 (WEB) Let no one deceive himself. If anyone thinks that he is wise among you in this world, let him become a fool, that he may become wise.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Maybe? Given that the modelmaker is the one who is calling the shots, it's an empty challenge. This is my point.

How is it empty is my question. What if the modelmaker's challenge is to prove that it can't be done? Isn't that a rational way to prove a point?

I'm saying God is love, and created us to love and be loved, and the only meaningful love is that which is given from one's own desire to love. The pantomine of love is a mockery of love.

Why is it illogical to say that God creates the desire within us? Why is it something that we must produce on our own?

Not to mention all the myriads of active voice verbs in the Bible that apply to us.

And if these verbs indicate what God says when he is immanent, why does this contradict what he does as a transcendent creator? For instance, if the model maker challenges his car to become red, even as he made the car blue, does this mean that the model maker didn't create a blue car? How does the model maker's challenge contradict his creativity? I don't see the problem.

In your view, God predetermined that I would write this. So why don't you hear me? Because in your view God predetermined for you to not.

Everything God creates should be evaluated according to the narrative. God predestined that you would write this post. He predestined that I would read it. And he predestined that I would respond.

But you object to this view on two grounds: 1) it means that my choices aren't real choices, and 2) they don't reflect who I am. In addition, you object because the warnings aren't real, and they misrepresent reality the way it really works.

My answer is that my choices are mine and reflect who I am within the reality that God is creating. But my choices are not independent of God or the artifice that he is building.

Do you believe that God created everything in the past, thousands of years ago, or does God create some things today? I maintain a version of Divine Determinism, which understands predestination in terms of a script that God "wrote." So, according to DD God "scripted" that you would write your post. He then, when the time came, spoke you writing your post into existence.

Paul wrote an analogy of God's creative activity, using a potter and a pot. One might say that God created the pot the day I was born. But it is also possible and more likely that God is creating me, right now, in real time. I am the thing formed but the forming never ends. The same is true for all of us. Thus, although he scripted that I would answer this post, he is creating me answering this post right now.

 

[marks]

How is it empty is my question.

Look, I'm not interested in continuing this.

Much love!

 

[setst777]

How is it empty is my question. What if the modelmaker's challenge is to prove that it can't be done? Isn't that a rational way to prove a point?

Why is it illogical to say that God creates the desire within us? Why is it something that we must produce on our own?

And if these verbs indicate what God says when he is immanent, why does this contradict what he does as a transcendent creator? For instance, if the model maker challenges his car to become red, even as he made the car blue, does this mean that the model maker didn't create a blue car? How does the model maker's challenge contradict his creativity? I don't see the problem.

Everything God creates should be evaluated according to the narrative. God predestined that you would write this post. He predestined that I would read it. And he predestined that I would respond.

But you object to this view on two grounds: 1) it means that my choices aren't real choices, and 2) they don't reflect who I am. In addition, you object because the warnings aren't real, and they misrepresent reality the way it really works.

My answer is that my choices are mine and reflect who I am within the reality that God is creating. But my choices are not independent of God or the artifice that he is building.

Do you believe that God created everything in the past, thousands of years ago, or does God create some things today? I maintain a version of Divine Determinism, which understands predestination in terms of a script that God "wrote." So, according to DD God "scripted" that you would write your post. He then, when the time came, spoke you writing your post into existence.

Paul wrote an analogy of God's creative activity, using a potter and a pot. One might say that God created the pot the day I was born. But it is also possible and more likely that God is creating me, right now, in real time. I am the thing formed but the forming never ends. The same is true for all of us. Thus, although he scripted that I would answer this post, he is creating me answering this post right now.

If we desire to know why God forms a vessel for noble or ignoble purpose, then we have to find out how God himself describes it (Jeremiah 18:1-11), which, by the way, is also how Paul describes it if you read the context (Romans 2:4-5; Romans 9:19-24; 2 Timothy 2:19-21).

You can fill in the blanks with your own philosophies and imaginations, but then, that is how anyone can pervert the Scriptures and God's glory and the Gospel.

Also, God does describes how he works out his will in real time as follows:

Ezekiel 18:25-32 (WEB)
25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’
Hear, you Israelites: Is my way unjust?
Is it not your ways that are unjust?
26 If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin, they will die for it; because of the sin they have committed they will die. 27 But if a wicked person turns away from the wickedness they have committed and does what is just and right, they will save their life. 28 Because they consider all the offenses they have committed and turn away from them, that person will surely live; they will not die.
29 Yet the Israelites say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’
Are my ways unjust, people of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust?
30 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord.
Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall.
31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit.
Why will you die, people of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord.
Repent and live!"

 

[setst777]

Look, I'm not interested in continuing this.

Much love!

Mark, good work! Do not be sucked into his mind games, discussing imaginations, philosophies, and suppositions.

Just stick with the Scriptures. Even if he, and others, deny, or try to refute the plain teaching of Scripture with their own imaginations, at least everyone else who reads those posts who seek the truth will be blessed. Even if others seeking the truth see your messages today or even 20 years from now, the fact is your posts can show that you stood on God's Word, not on the supposed "wisdom" and philosophical arguments of the proud.

 

[marks]

Just stick with the Scriptures.

Amen!

And if my comments may bear good fruit, the Lord be praised!

Much love!