A Question for Jehovah's Witnesses
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Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
You don't believe our Bibles?
No doubt there are others who's savior is Michael. Jesus is my Savior.
The Father! Quite simple.
Let's see, the Bible says Jesus / God is "Mighty God", "the first and the last, "reads the minds and hearts" and is the Creator. Couldn't be any clearer!
Says who? Are you saying Jesus isn't God???
John 20 Thomas said to Jesus, "My Lord and my GOD"!
Amen Thomas! Jesus is my God too!
Same thing! Do you read your own posts?
I think the WatchTower deceitfully edited out Jesus being God, at least twice.
The JW bible says Jesus is God: NWT 1970 Heb 1 Let all God's angels WORSHIP him!
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Wrangler
Well-Known Member
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Runningman
Active Member
Some translations of Isaiah 9:6 say the child would be "called" mighty God and then Jesus was never called that. Actually, Jesus went on to deny being God. Jesus also isn't the everlasting Father. If Jesus is the everlasting Father, then that would mean the Son is the Father and your theology of God has got a big problem.
So Isaiah 9:6 doesn't help you any. Nothing in the Bible helps you.
Jesus' teachings on worship, prayer, and fasting were all directed to the Father. Treating Jesus like God wasn't the idea he was trying to get across because he's a human and worshipping humans as your personal god is idolatry. This is exactly why no one prayed to Jesus in the Bible and no one worshipped Jesus as God.
Jesus forgave sins (Mark 2:10), raised the dead (Luke 7:12-15), controlled nature (Matt. 8:26), and will judge the secret motives of men (Matt. 7:22-23). Aren't those helpful?
Thomas says to Jesus "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28), and Jesus does not correct him. Isn't that helpful?
As he is being stoned, Stephen prays to Jesus to receive his spirit (Acts 7:59) -- and praying to someone other than God would be idolatrous. Isn't that helpful?
Isaiah 60:19 promises that “the Lord will be your everlasting light, and your God will be your glory," and Luke 2:32 applies this to Jesus, calling him “a light for revelation to the Gentiles and for glory to your people Israel." Isn't that helpful?
Joel 2:32 says "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved" as an obvious reference to God, and Rom. 10:9 says "if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved" -- immediately quoting Joel's comment as support (Rom. 10:13). Isn't that helpful?
Titus 2:13 refers to "the blessed hope and the manifestation of the glory of our great God and Saviour, Jesus Christ." Isn't that helpful? In fact, so helpful that the NWT saw fit to butcher it into "the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of our Savior Christ Jesus," in violation of Granville Sharp's rule (when και connects two nouns of the same case, and the article precedes the first noun but is not repeated before the second noun, the second always refers to the same person described by the first)?
I'm not saying that these are conclusive. Just helpful. Can you concede that much?
Some? Make that LOTS of transaltions call Jesus Mighty God!
Isaiah 9:6 (DRV)
6 God the Mighty,
Isaiah 9:6 (ASV)
6 Mighty God,
Isaiah 9:6 (AMP)
6 Mighty God,
Isaiah 9:6 (CSBBible)
6 Mighty God,
Isaiah 9:6 (CEB)
6 Mighty God,
Isaiah 9:6 (CJB)
6 Mighty God,
Isaiah 9:6 (CEV)
6 Mighty God,
Isaiah 9:6 (Darby)
6 Mighty God,
Isaiah 9:6 (ESV)
6 Mighty God,
Isaiah 9:6 (GW)
6 Mighty God,
Isaiah 9:6 (HCSB)
6 Mighty God,
Isaiah 9:6 (KJV)
6 The mighty God,
Isaiah 9:6 (MLB)
6 Mighty God,
Isaiah 9:6 (NET1)
6 Mighty God,
Isaiah 9:6 (NASB77)
6 Mighty God,
Isaiah 9:6 (NASB)
6 Mighty God,
Isaiah 9:6 (NIV)
6 Mighty God,
Isaiah 9:6 (NIV2011)
6 Mighty God,
Isaiah 9:6 (NJB)
6 Mighty-God,
Isaiah 9:6 (NLT2)
6 Mighty God,
Isaiah 9:6 (NRSV)
6 Mighty God,
Isaiah 9:6 (RSV)
6 Mighty God,
Isaiah 9:6 (TLB)
6 "The Mighty God,"
Isaiah 9:6 (TEV)
6 "Mighty God,"
Isaiah 9:6 (Webster's Bible)
6 The mighty God,
Isaiah 9:6 (YLT)
6 Mighty God,
Should we believe your opinions or Isaiah? Hmm
No Scripture? Of course not.
NWT Peter said to Jesus, "Lord you know ALL THINGS"!
ONLY God knows all things!
Thomas said to Jesus, "My Lord and my GOD"!
Amen Thomas! Jesus is my God too!
Runningman
Active Member
Saying what someone will be called isn't the same thing as calling them that.
Once again, Jesus was never called "mighty God" in the Bible.
Nor was Jesus called the Everlasting Father.
If you have the scripture showing otherwise, would love to see it. No one in the universe has found it yet.
I believe you should believe what the Bible says rightly divided, not what you want it to say. So far, it seems you have chosen the latter.
Runningman
Active Member
Jesus and other men given authority by God to forgive sins:
Matthew 9
6But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins...” Then He said to the paralytic, “Get up, pick up your mat, and go home.” 7And the man got up and went home.
8When the crowds saw this, they were filled with awe and glorified God, who had given such authority to men.
Peter also raised the dead:
Acts 9
40Then Peter sent them all out of the room. He knelt down and prayed, and turning toward her body, he said, “Tabitha, get up!” She opened her eyes, and seeing Peter, she sat up.
So did Elijah:
1 Kings 17
1Now Elijah the Tishbite, who was among the settlers of Gilead, said to Ahab, “As surely as the LORD lives—the God of Israel before whom I stand—there will be neither dew nor rain in these years except at my word!”
God will judge through a man he apointed.
Acts 17
31For He has set a day when He will judge the world with justice by the Man He has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising Him from the dead.”
No. They only to serve by example that Jesus isn't God nor did anything that anyone else couldn't do when empowered by God.
Continued...
Runningman
Active Member
John 20:17 says that Thomas' God is the Father. Therefore, when Thomas said "my God" in John 20:28 why would that change?
The word "prayer" doesn't appear there in the Greek. Calling out or speaking to someone isn't praying to them, whether they be the Son at God's right hand or otherwise.
Didn't Jesus specifically instruct Christians to pray to the Father? Matt 6:6,9
It says Jesus is a light for them for God's glory. That would mean it isn't his glory.
Jesus is a distinctly different Lord than YHWH in this context. Jesus is the one YHWH wants people to believe in, but not the one they call on to be saved, i.e., the Bible never says call on the name of Jesus to be saved.
Look at Romans 10:9-13 where distinction is made between Jesus and God. You can also check out the OT texts where the cornerstone YHWH laid isn't himself YHWH. The LORD (YHWH) being called on is God, not Jesus.
Great God and Savior Jesus are two different persons.
The Granville Sharp rule doesn't exist in Greek. It suddenly mysteriously appears around verses where God and Jesus are mentioned in close proximity. I'll have to look into how the JW's translated that verse, but it certainly clears things up.
If you would like a pretty high level read on the GS rule being challenged in English then there is a Trinitarian who did it. Henry Alford, The Greek Testament.
Thank you I appreciate it. They did help me understand what you believe, but they didn't help me see what you're seeing the same way.
That is not true. I even asked a friend of mine who is Greek--she says it is the Word was God.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Oy vey.
Of secondary importance is when. Fact is, Jesus was never called the things in Isaiah 9:6.
Of primary importance is that calling someone something does not make it true. Was Ali the greatest cause he said so?
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