A Question for Jehovah's Witnesses

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Aunty Jane

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The JW Bible says: Heb 1 Let ALL God's angels WORSHIP him. Michael is an angel. He WORSHIPS Jesus!

When did that start, yesterday? Michael is the JW savior. Jesus is the Christian Savior.
Please do some proper research instead of making a fool of yourself spouting on about things that are clearly beyond your comprehension?

Our Bible was adjusted a long time ago when research uncovered the deeper meaning of the word....”worship”.

What does the word “proskyneō” (translated “worship”) mean? This is the word you like to use to show that angels “worshipped” Jesus, when that is not what it says......if you understand that this word when applied to humans always means “obeisance” i.e. “a prostrating of oneself to another person as a sign of respect (as was common in Bible times).....only when directed to God, is it “worship”. Jesus was a man.

Giving “obeisance” to a man is not worship.
 
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Rella ~ I am a woman

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No. “For God loved the world so much that He gave His only-begotten Son….” — John 3:16.


Why is this simple truth so hard to accept?
Because before John worte 3:16 he wrote 1:1 which states

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

I have a lot more on this I could say, but for the time being I wont simply until another area has run its course.
 

Rella ~ I am a woman

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Nothing clearly says that. All that seems to say such have been proven false by context. Try it.
Do you deny what is said in John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God?

Do you deny the Word is God?

Add this to that... John 1:14... And the Word became flesh, and [k]dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of [l]the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Who do you think this flesh was?

Who was Matthew talking about in 1: 23.. “Behold, the virgin shall be with child and shall bear a Son, and they shall call His name [y]Immanuel,” which translated means, “God with us.”?
 

Aunty Jane

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Because before John worte 3:16 he wrote 1:1 which states

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Please look up the word “theos” in a Greek Interlinear and see that in order to identify the true God, who at that time was nameless, the Greeks had no word for a god without a name, so they simply called Yahweh “ho theos” or “THE God”.......they had only one........and there is only one mention of “ho theos” in John 1:1...the second mention is just “theos” without the identifying article that singled out the difference between deity and divinity.

Christ was divine, but he was not deity....and no scripture says he was anything but “the son of God”
This is how Jesus identified himself when the Jews were claiming that he was making himself “theos”. (John 10:31-36)
I have a lot more on this I could say, but for the time being I wont simply until another area has run its course.
If what you have to say has been said a thousand times already...what is the point?
 

RedFan

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Please look up the word “theos” in a Greek Interlinear and see that in order to identify the true God, who at that time was nameless, the Greeks had no word for a god without a name, so they simply called Yahweh “ho theos” or “THE God”.......they had only one........and there is only one mention of “ho theos” in John 1:1...the second mention is just “theos” without the identifying article that singled out the difference between deity and divinity.
And what about instances where theos without the article is used by John as a reference to -- using your favored moniker -- YHWH? Are we to glean John's intention that an unarticulated theos = YHWH in some cases and not others?
 

Wrangler

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And what about instances where theos without the article is used by John as a reference to -- using your favored moniker -- YHWH? Are we to glean John's intention that an unarticulated theos = YHWH in some cases and not others?
While delving into this may be enlightening for some, it is a bit of a diversion.

Sticking to John 1:1, do you see no significance in the inconsistent use of "ho" before the word "theos?" What are the possible explanations for this inconsistency in John 1:1?
 
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RedFan

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While delving into this may be enlightening for some, it is a bit of a diversion.

Sticking to John 1:1, do you see no significance in the inconsistent use of "ho" before the word "theos?" What are the possible explanations for this inconsistency in John 1:1?
The same as the inconsistency in John 3:2. A pair of references to YHWH (to use your favored name). That's one possibility.
 

Wrangler

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The same as the inconsistency in John 3:2. A pair of references to YHWH (to use your favored name). That's one possibility.
Not really an answer to my question. Just another diversion.

According to Bible up the first word translated “God” is Theou. Not Theos. Not sure if that is correct but does seem like not the same as John 1:1.
 

RedFan

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Not really an answer to my question. Just another diversion.

According to Bible up the first word translated “God” is Theou. Not Theos. Not sure if that is correct but does seem like not the same as John 1:1.
Theou is just the genitive case of theos. Same noun.
 

Jack

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All of the titles that the son of God would carry, have significant meaning.....the fact that he is called “Mighty God” (El Gib·bohrʹ) not “Almighty God” (El Shad·daiʹ) is significant since the word “god” (el) is applied to more than just Yahweh and Jesus. Angels are called “gods” (elo·himʹ) and so were human judges in Israel. (John 10:31-36)
How many Bible characters carry “el” in their names....”Immanu”el”.... Samu”el”... Jemu”el”...“El”ijah”...and many others.
Jesus called his Father “the only true God” (John 17:3) but never once said that he was “God” (capital “G”)
“Theos in Greek” also has a broader meaning than Christendom wants to acknowledge.
ONLY God/Jesus are "Mighty God" in the Bible! They are the same.
 

Jack

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Since the Bible indicates that Jesus has many names, depending on the role he is assigned, as the Commander of the angels, Micheal could well be the prehuman Jesus....
From the JW bible: NWT Heb 1 Let ALL God's angels WORSHIP him.

Michael is an angel. Michael WORSHIPS Jesus!
who is also said to command the angels......”Jesus” is the name given to him only as a human. Upon his return to heaven, he gained another new name...better than the one he had before....(Phil 2:9; Rev 3:12) Does God need to give himself a new name when he has never gone by any other name than Yahweh/ Jehovah, as your “Christian Bible” indicates?
“Jehovah” is the “Most High over all the earth” (Psalm 83:18 KJV)

Your blind beliefs don’t hold water but still you hold onto them like a drowning man clinging to a piece of floating debris after a shipwreck.....the life boat is there, but you refuse to enter it because someone told you it has leaks....and though you can’t see their boat sinking...you still prefer the piece of debris....and hypothermia is setting in.......go figure....what if it’s you who has been fed ancient lies that will lead to the death you often forecast for others?
1 Cor 10:12...
Jesus is my Savior. Michael is the JW savior. We'll see how that works for you on Judgment Day!
 

Jack

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Please do some proper research instead of making a fool of yourself spouting on about things that are clearly beyond your comprehension?

Our Bible was adjusted a long time ago when research uncovered the deeper meaning of the word....”worship”.

What does the word “proskyneō” (translated “worship”) mean? This is the word you like to use to show that angels “worshipped” Jesus, when that is not what it says......if you understand that this word when applied to humans always means “obeisance” i.e. “a prostrating of oneself to another person as a sign of respect (as was common in Bible times).....only when directed to God, is it “worship”. Jesus was a man.

Giving “obeisance” to a man is not worship.
Look at this, a JW saying their own JW bible was GRIEVOUSLY WRONG about THE Savior. How many Christian Bibles would you like me to quote that say "WORSHIP"? Even your own 1970 JW bible!
 
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Jack

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Please do some proper research instead of making a fool of yourself spouting on about things that are clearly beyond your comprehension?
I believe goading and flaming is a violation of forum rules.
 

RedFan

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There seems to be a lot of repetition in this thread by those who insist that John 1:1 uses the article ho theos to refer to, well, God with a capital G, and uses just theos without the article when referring to some lesser, small-g god. (I’ll call the capital-G God “Yahweh” for convenience.)

We could look at all of the instances in the NT where theos has and doesn’t have the article to see how often this rule holds up. Of course, that would take all day – but fortunately On the Use of Theos and Theon in John 1:1 and Elsewhere in the Greek New Testament has done the math for us:


CASE
SingularPlural
Nominativeὁ θεός (ho theos)
[ 261 with, 48 without ]
οἱ θεοὶ (hoi theoi)
[ 1 with / 5 without ]
Accusativeτὸν θεόν (ton theon)
[ 112 with, 35 without ]
τοὺς θεούς (tous theous)
[ 0 with, 2 without]
Genitiveτοῦ θεοῦ (tou theou)
[ 501 with, 190 without ]
τῶν θεῶν (tōn theōn)
[ 0 / 0 ]
Dativeτῷ θεῷ (tō theō)
[ 118 with, 41 without]
τοῖς θεοῖς (tois theois)
[ 0 with, 1 without ]
Vocativeθεέ (theé)
[ 2 ] (both in Mt. 27:46)
N/A



These give us a total of (309 + 147 + 691 + 159 + 8 + 2) = 1,316 occurrences for the masculine Greek forms of theos in the NT, of which 996 have the article and 320 do not.

I thought perhaps the JW argument might be that all 320 instances of the unarticulated noun refer to something other than Yahweh. But that’s an untenable argument. Everyone concedes that some of those 320 references are indeed to Yahweh. So, the unarticulared theos COULD be a reference to Yahweh.

But not in John 1:1, they insist. Why not, I ask. And @Wrangler had an interesting spin here, to the effect that if the articulated and unarticulated usages are in the same verse, then the articulated noun refers to Yahweh and the unarticulated noun does not. But John 3:2 disproves this theory. It, too, has both an articulated and unarticulated use of the noun, and BOTH clearly refer to Yahweh.

Here is a suggestion: let’s stop the haggling over John 1:1, and just all concede that the Greek is inconclusive, i.e., it might be translated either as “the Word was God” or “the Word was a god.” We have to look for John’s meaning another way.

Anyone out there agree?
 

Jack

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Not sure what significance you put on this word. 3 other men in Scripture were worshipped Nebuchanazeer, Daniel and David. Doesn’t mean they were God.
God COMMANDED His angels to WORSHIP Jesus. Michael is an angel.
 

Jack

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Please do some proper research instead of making a fool of yourself spouting on about things that are clearly beyond your comprehension?

Our Bible was adjusted a long time ago when research uncovered the deeper meaning of the word....”worship”.

What does the word “proskyneō” (translated “worship”) mean? This is the word you like to use to show that angels “worshipped” Jesus, when that is not what it says......if you understand that this word when applied to humans always means “obeisance” i.e. “a prostrating of oneself to another person as a sign of respect (as was common in Bible times).....only when directed to God, is it “worship”. Jesus was a man.

Giving “obeisance” to a man is not worship.
Is Michael your savior?
 

Rella ~ I am a woman

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Please look up the word “theos” in a Greek Interlinear and see that in order to identify the true God, who at that time was nameless, the Greeks had no word for a god without a name, so they simply called Yahweh “ho theos” or “THE God”.......they had only one........and there is only one mention of “ho theos” in John 1:1...the second mention is just “theos” without the identifying article that singled out the difference between deity and divinity.
How about we just call Him Heavenly Daddy.
Christ was divine, but he was not deity....and no scripture says he was anything but “the son of God”

I'm sorry your basic reading in grade school left you with out the ability to understandwhat you read.

Those who explained things in your church were wrong.

You are denying that Jesus was the Word. Such a shame to not understand the fullness that knowing they are one in the same brings.


This is how Jesus identified himself when the Jews were claiming that he was making himself “theos”. (John 10:31-36)

Tell me about John....

It is true that Jesus never said the exact words, “I am God.” He did, however, make the claim to be God in many different ways, and those who heard Him knew exactly what He was saying. For example, in John 10:30, Jesus said, “I and the Father are one.” The Jews who heard Him make that statement knew well that He was claiming to be God, as witnessed by their reaction: “His Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him” (John 10:31). When He asked them why they were attempting to stone Him, they said, “For blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33). Stoning was the penalty for blasphemy (Leviticus 24:16), and the Jews plainly accused Jesus of claiming to be God.

Who was lieing? John and those trying to stone Him.... OR Jesus.

If it was John then NO WORD can ever be trusted in the Holy Bible.... and we should be free to ignore it.

continuiing

Jesus made another statement claiming to be God when He said, “Very truly I tell you, . . . before Abraham was born, I am!” (John 8:58). The Jews, upon hearing Him, clearly understood that He was claiming preexistence and, more than that, to be Yahweh, the great “I AM” of Exodus 3:14. On this occasion, too, they tried to stone Him for blasphemy.

The Gospel of John begins with a statement of Jesus’ deity:
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God” (John 1:1, emphasis added). In verse 14, John identifies the Word: “The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.” John is affirming that the Word (Jesus) is God, and He left heaven to come to earth in the form of a man to live with men and display the glory of God the Father.

The disciples of Jesus distinctly heard Him declare His deity.
After Jesus’ resurrection, Thomas the doubting disciple finally understood Jesus’ deity, declaring Him to be “my Lord and my God” (John 20:28). If Jesus were not Lord and God, He would have corrected Thomas, but He did not; Thomas spoke the truth. After seeing Jesus walking on the water, His disciples worshipped Him (Matthew 14:33). When He appeared to them after the resurrection, they fell at His feet and worshipped Him (Matthew 28:9). The disciples were well aware of the Mosaic Law’s penalty for blasphemy, yet they worshipped Him as God, and Jesus accepted their worship. Jesus never rebuked people for worshipping Him, accepting their worship as good and proper.
If what you have to say has been said a thousand times already...what is the point?
The point is that you need to hear it and read it until you understand it.. even if it is 10,000 more times.
 

Runningman

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Do you deny what is said in John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God?

Do you deny the Word is God?
The Word could either possibly be a god or something godly. I personally believe that Jesus didn't pre-exist as a being known as the Word simply because there is nothing clear in the Old Testament or New Testament about Jesus pre-existing. This is also supported by the Greek.

What was Jesus saying or doing before he was born? (verse or passage please)

Add this to that... John 1:14... And the Word became flesh, and [k]dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of [l]the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
That would refer to Jesus being born. God's word (logos) is His divine utterance which can be understood as His plans. God's plans manifested on earth. Why not?

Who do you think this flesh was?

Who was Matthew talking about in 1: 23.. “Behold, the virgin shall be with child and shall bear a Son, and they shall call His name [y]Immanuel,” which translated means, “God with us.”?
If I understand you correctly, you believe the definition of the name Immanuel means if someone is named that then they are God? I ask that because I have seen people say that before.